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Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by seanalltogether on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:25PM (#19833834)
> Officers uncovered a customs-related offence during 38 per cent of those searches, said the agency.

I really want to understand what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gruez on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:47PM (#19833960)
I'm more surprised at the 38% true positive rate. If you consider false positives, it would mean that they are shockingly good at profiling and most criminals are dumb enough to leave obvious evidence on their phone, or an overwhelming majority of people have committed a "customs-related offence" so that you could pick anyone and they would be guilty.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by fhbdukfrh on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:59PM (#19834028)
I would think most offenses are for improper entry, visa, etc. If you were entering to work on a tourism visa I think it would be very easy to find proof in a simple email, text or document.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gruez on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:31PM (#19834196)
The issue here is that if most people aren't intending on staying illegally, you need to be really accurate, otherwise all the false positives are going to drown out your true positives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by michaelmrose on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:07PM (#19834067)
Plus it isn't hard to pick out people crossing consistently for work.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by andy_ppp on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:28PM (#19834181)
I mean what counts as work and where it occurs are becoming very difficult to manage? What happens if you have to do work while on a real holiday, should you be deported for this? Is it valid to allow these searches for these sort of offences, it seems like at some point everyone will be guilty of doing these things.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Consultant32452 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:41PM (#19834255)
I wonder this myself. There is a difference between traveling for the purposes of work, and working while traveling. I have a 100% remote position. I normally do my work in the US. I've considered flying to Europe for a few weeks, where due to time zone differences I could do touristy stuff during the day and then work my US 9-5 shift in the EU evening. This would allow me to travel but to not take vacation time. Would this require a work visa?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by kdbg on Sunday May 05, 2019 @09:36PM (#19836222)
Generally speaking, there isn't a difference between traveling for the purpose of work and working while traveling for other reasons. If you are physically in one country while performing work it is considered working in that country and requires appropriate permission. Many countries do have a business visitor category that allows for some form of work (attending meetings, and the like, things that wouldn't be stealing the job of a resident).

I actually learned this the hard way, I was in your shoes, 100% remote job, for a US company, US clients, and went to Europe and thought I might work while traveling. I was detained at the border, interviewed, and very nearly denied entry. I was let after a couple fairly lengthy interviews (I was detained for about 16hours) and proving I had funds to support myself without working. I was given a "visitor record" and a firm exit by date, not sure what all the record entails but I get questioned every time I enter now.

Anyway, point being, legally speaking what generally matters is where you are located when performing the work, and that's really the only way that makes sense to judge where the work takes place.

With all that said, in reality being caught is extremely unlikely and plenty of people get away with it and I don't think there are many countries actively trying to crack down on that sort of short term work while being a tourist. If you want to be above the board though, unless your work counts as what a business visitor can do, you would need a visa to perform any work. There is generally no distinction between traveling for the purpose of working, and working while traveling for other reasons.

I'm not a lawyer though but I've spent a fair bit of time actually looking at the restrictions on the tourism and business visitor visas to stay legal while traveling long-term and working remotely.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by adzicg on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:58PM (#19834347)
I’m not a lawyer, but tend to travel a lot and had lots of conversations with border agents as a result :) My impression is that it’s primarily a question of payment - if you travel to say Belgium to get paid by a Belgian company, then it’s work. If you’re there and your work is not really related to Belgium in any way, you are on a salary paid by a US company, then your purpose isn’t really work. The shades of gray start when your employer is being paid by the local company for your work. Many countries will allow you to attend meetings for a week or two, run demos, provide some on-site support, but staying for six months and working on site likely require a business visa.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by seanalltogether on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:36PM (#19834547)
FWIW, I did this for 2.5 years while dating my now wife. As long as i had proof that I would only be in the country for less then 90 days and always told them I was working for an American company and that my American company was consulting for American clients, they were ok with it. Traveling with a recent bank statement also helped to show i had enough funds to cover my stay even if I was on "vacation"

I basically had my mornings free every day until I ate lunch then i would sit down and start work for the day.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by oska on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:34PM (#19834897)
Or they are lying with statistics (i.e. using the smallest excuse to justify inclusion as a positive).
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by solipsism on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:50PM (#19834309)
it would mean that they are shockingly good at profiling and most criminals are dumb enough to leave obvious evidence on their phone

Your use of the word obvious is not well supported by your argument. Do you have an unstated premise that Border Services only detect "obvious" offenses?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by argonaut on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:23PM (#19835461)
That's precision, not true positive rate.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by claudiawerner on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:37PM (#19833902)
There are cases at the Canadian border in which the investigators search for "boy" or "girl" using the Windows search tools to see if there is child pornography on your device. In other circumstances, they uncover hentai[0] showing characters that appear to be underage - and bringing that into Canada is illegal (in fact, much like Australia and New Zealand, any sexual depiction of fictional minors is illegal, and that can include stories or other text). There are anecdotal and well-documented cases for the latter[1]. One Reddit user claimed that the investigators at the border found browser-cached thumbnails of such material (since it used to be permitted on Redddit) and he was jailed for a day or something like that.

Not to suggest that all of the 38% count for that, but with the popularity of drawn pornography I'd wager it makes up a sizable chunk.

[0] Hentai refers to anime-style drawings of fictional characters.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=canadian+...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by beagle3 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:06PM (#19834061)
Is there an exception for religious texts? There are Is more than one common religions whose holy texts depict sexual activity with minors.

Also, if I have a copy of Nabokov “Lolita” on my kindle, will I get in trouble? Stephen King’s It? An apt pupil?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ghjjjj on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:41PM (#19835783)
“Also, if I have a copy of Nabokov “Lolita” “

Enforcement is selective.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by deogeo on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:53PM (#19834325)
It's sickening to think that, despite the ban in Canada, countless innocent anime girls are being abused in Japan every day - many of them children! The UN should apply pressure to get Japan to stop this vile abuse, and import of cartoons into Japan should be banned, as their safety cannot be guaranteed there.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by frosted-flakes on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:37PM (#19834913)
Fictional child pornography does not directly harm children, but it is likely that it does so indirectly by creating demand for actual CP. To me, it seems totally reasonable to make all sexualized depictions of children illegal for this reason.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by deogeo on Sunday May 05, 2019 @04:55PM (#19834998)
That's one way to look at it. But there's evidence that access to porn reduces the amount of rape [1]. In light of that, it seems reasonable to ask - how many children are we willing to allow to be raped, to protect our precious anime girls?

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201601...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by claudiawerner on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:16PM (#19835134)
>but it is likely that it does so indirectly by creating demand for actual CP

Until there is evidence of that, it seems strange to say that's a conclusion at all, or that it's likely. In fact, Patrick Galbraith's work on how users of fictional CP actually interact with their materials suggests exactly the opposite: they have developed a form of sexuality for the representations themselves - the more fictional, the more real to them. To add to that, the research I've read shows that pornography is not associated with increased rates of sexual assault or rape. If the link isn't even there for regular porn, what would make you say it's "likely" there for cartoon representations?

Furthermore, do we apply this standard elsewhere in society? If there were no research on the link between video games and violence, would you conclude that it is "likely" it indirectly creates a demand for videos of real violence? Is the fact that someone might be spurred on to do a different act sufficient to illegalize the original act which spurred them? I would say not, unless we were to illegalize drugs (for example) because those who partake are likely to be violent? Should we prosecute cannabis users because they create demand for drug cartel products which finance murder? Apple users because they create demand for the appalling treatment of Chinese workers?

Most researchers on the philosophy of law in this area (e.g Suzanne Ost) while obviously opposed to actual child pornography find no philosophical basis in the harm principle to illegalize fictional representations. As such, it's not reasonable at all. You need to justify why you think it's "likely" and just what that standard means. If it cannot be justified, then we may say that any likelihood is sufficient to illegalize any material, but I doubt that's a conclusion you'd want to follow to its extreme.

Finally there's the issue of penalties - isn't punishing someone for something they might do (access real CP) unjust? This seems shockingly close to the notion of pre-crime. To avoid that, you'd want to look more at punishing the creators of the material rather than those who have consumed it and harmed nobody (other than themselves perhaps).

If there is no cultural understanding of the real people themselves, how they read the text and how they interpret it, any law is based merely on speculation and I must stand firmly against such speculative laws.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by frosted-flakes on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:04PM (#19835641)
Perhaps what you suggest is true. I don't pretend that I have done tons of research on this; I only say that it is not inconceivable to me that fictional CP increases demand for real CP.

> do we apply this standard elsewhere in society?

If there is a demonstrable link between them, sure. The same way real CP is illegal because it creates demand, which causes more CP to be made. Remember, owning CP does not directly harm anyone.

> If there were no research on the link between video games and violence, would you conclude that it is "likely" it indirectly creates a demand for videos of real violence?

No, because video games and videos are completely different things. People who play violent video games don't do it because they like watching violence, they do it because they like playing video games.

> isn't punishing someone for something they might do (access real CP) unjust?

They're not being punished for something they might do, but that they did do. If fictional CP is illegal and someone is in possession of it, then they've committed a crime.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by claudiawerner on Sunday May 05, 2019 @07:37PM (#19835766)
> The same way real CP is illegal because it creates demand, which causes more CP to be made. Remember, owning CP does not directly harm anyone.

The possession of real CP in most places isn't illegal because it creates demand, but because in order for its creation it required the actual abuse of children, and it's a violation of their privacy. Arguments against possession nowadays rely on two factors: the risk of harm (which is frequently not justified) and the violation of privacy. The second is a direct harm. CP is more often than not accessed for free in ways where the original uploaders have no way of knowing how many people consume the material - in the same way that Usenet posts circulate, and in an even more opaque way to BitTorrent. You can't see how many seeders you have on CP sharing sites. Paying for it is dangerous, so most consumers tend to coast on what they can find for free.

>No, because video games and videos are completely different things. People who play violent video games don't do it because they like watching violence, they do it because they like playing video games.

They are different, but the argument could also be made that comic books (in which lolicon hentai is most often published) are different to videos, and Japanese visual novels (which are branded and appreciated as games in their own right) which contain virtual CP are different to videos too. Yet we also would suppose that most people who play violent video games select violent video games for a reason over other non-violent games. The violence is an allure just as much as playing the video game is. For what reason, I don't know - perhaps to experience the limitless world of the imagination, or a break from life. Either way, people who read underage hentai don't do it because they like the idea of children being abuse, they do it because they can find a way to engage their erotic desires in a fictional world - but again, they must also have some reason to select lolicon over other content, and that's accounted for in the history of the status of women in Japan and the concept of moe. We can abstract away from video games and violence too; what do you think about movies that show violence, comic books that show disgusting levels of violence and pain, anime that shows violence...

>They're not being punished for something they might do, but that they did do.

Then the law is unjust - we would be punishing a victimless crime if we outlaw possession of things which cause no harm. Evidently the crime itself can't be located in the mere fact of the violation, since presumably it's a crime for other reasons. If it's a crime because "the viewer might do x, y, z" then it's punishing someone for something they might do through the creation of a law which punishes something they did do. It's simply adding another layer of explanation and indirection to the process, it doesn't automatically add any more justification. That's how the concept of pre-crime works, the pre-crime itself is made into a crime that can be prosecuted. I'm not suggesting that due process is being abandoned here, I'm saying that the rules in deciding what should and shouldn't be crime are being abandoned in favor of speculation.

> I only say that it is not inconceivable to me that fictional CP increases demand for real CP.

On the same token with the same amount of conviction (i.e none) I can say that it's not inconceivable that fictional CP lowers (or doesn't affect) demand for real CP. Now I don't really believe that's true, but I have as much reason to believe that as you do to believe the opposite. Perhaps posting on HN increases the demand for brutal startup founders who abuse their employees.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Dylan16807 on Monday May 06, 2019 @06:52AM (#19838254)
> To me, it seems totally reasonable to make all sexualized depictions of children illegal for this reason.

Among a huge number of intractable problems with fictional works, this also would make it illegal for many abuse victims to talk about what happened to them.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by zzo38computer on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:26AM (#19837259)
I disagree. Texts and fictional drawings should not be made illegal, regardless of their content. (I am not so sure that even actual child pornography should be illegal, although maybe it should be illegal to buy and sell actual child pornography, and also illegal to take photographs of them without their permission (even if it isn't for money).)
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by leetrout on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:41PM (#19833923)
Doesn’t that make Season 1 of Californication illegal since David Duchovny’s character has sex with a portrayed 16 year old girl (with full frontal nudity)?
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by claudiawerner on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:44PM (#19833940)
The representation has to be pornographic; I should have clarified. That said, "borderline" pornography, including a "chibi" (characters drawn with no definition or detail, no genitalia visible) parody of a famous Japanese print, were prosecuted in Canada[0]. If I could I would link the image in question if you wanted to see just how ridiculous this prosecution was.

[0] https://www.cbr.com/canadian-court-drops-criminal-charges-in...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by enriquto on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:21PM (#19834139)
> any sexual depiction of fictional minors is illegal, and that can include stories or other text

So the bible and the quran cannot be imported legally into these countries?

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by tomcam on Sunday May 05, 2019 @05:10PM (#19835087)
OK so that search is NSFW
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by kejaed on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:33PM (#19833870)
There’s a reality tv show that follows the Canadian border patrol, in the couple episodes I’ve seen the agents have found emails about the person crossing actually going for work when they say for tourism or visiting family.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by msie on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:04PM (#19834050)
I watch that show too much and it seems there is nothing they can't search or if they can't get access to they'll confiscate and send the device to some lab in Ottawa. If the intent of the show is to portray them as *ssholes then mission accomplished.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by bonestamp2 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:33PM (#19835498)
US Customs has the same power, within 100 miles of all borders. It's rarely used, but this means they have nearly unlimited search abilities over about 65% of the population.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/05/who-lives-in-border-p...

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by WrtCdEvrydy on Sunday May 05, 2019 @01:42PM (#19833929)
I mean, to be honest, that's probably illegal, but I have never liked trading freedom for security.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by pjc50 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:18PM (#19834127)
People love trading other people's freedom for security. Especially if it has to do with immigration.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Nasrudith on Sunday May 05, 2019 @08:05PM (#19835869)
Yep - that is why many love profiling - security theater that doesn't even inconvenience them because they are the "right people". Plus it focuses on "the bad people".

Even though it has a trivial workaround of not looking the part. The Lod Airport Massacre "terrorism swap" with Japanese Red Army Terrorists and Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-External Operations in 1972 shows just how useless it is as a measure.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by noarchy on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:53PM (#19834322)
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, it seems entirely correct, given the prevailing political climate.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by Fogest on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:31PM (#19834514)
And unfortunately this is often how they get away with doing stuff like this. People scream "my privacy!", government replies "but illegal immigrants?!?!", and people are like "ah all good then, I've got nothing to hide!".

It's just so dumb, and I've heard a lot of older people especially who will say the common "Why is it a problem if you've got nothing to hide?". I think some people fail to understand the kind of data people can have stored, and how much of some people's lives are part of their digital devices. I'm sure they wouldn't want police coming into their house and searching it.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by screye on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:58PM (#19834348)
Immigration : the government's favorite scape goat.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by pjc50 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @03:41PM (#19834576)
Let's be clear, it's not just the government but a large chunk of media and voters using immigrants as a scapegoat.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ultrarunner on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:20PM (#19835440)
As much as they may like to, I've yet to have armed agents of CNN et al demand to search my electronics.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gist on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:37PM (#19834232)
I watch that show as well. But I don't remember if they simply asked the person if they could search or demanded that they be able to search. Anyone who watches reality tv (for example 'Live PD') knows there are many cases where the police officer simply gains consent from the suspect for a search without any particular legal reason or right to do so. Now if they suspect they can (from watching) bring in a canine and if the canine smells something they then have probable cause (I believe) w/o getting a warrant (this is from memory and not a legal opinion that I have researched).
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by gruez on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:43PM (#19834276)
>Now if they suspect they can (from watching) bring in a canine and if the canine smells something they then have probable cause (I believe) w/o getting a warrant

They can't extend the traffic stop to bring in the dogs unless they have reasonable suspicion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodriguez_v._United_States

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by dontbenebby on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:11PM (#19834091)
>I really want to understand what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence.

Photo of someone smoking a joint in a legally (at the state level) operated dispensary. A pirated MP3 or video file.

There's all sorts of minor "customs violations" that would come into view looking through a device that frankly, aren't serious enough to warrant the violation of privacy.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by ThatGeoGuy on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:41PM (#19834261)
> A pirated MP3 or video file

In the first place, piracy is not illegal in Canada. Provisions surrounding copyright violations fall under bill C11, and that's a civil juncture, not a criminal one. So CBSA agents wouldn't be looking for that in the first place, nor would they have any grounds to do anything about it, since they aren't the rightsholders.

And even if they did, they have an interesting burden of proof in proving a given file was obtained via piracy. And what would they do? Detain you indefinitely because they want to "have a discussion" about some pirated Katy Perry song? I would agree that photos of doing drugs could be met with refusal at the border, but be reasonable.

Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by p2t2p on Sunday May 05, 2019 @06:22PM (#19835453)
They are looking for what is called "objectionable material". I don't know about Canada but in Australia it would be importing porn, any CP-like looking things (say porn with young Asian females that look like children and they have no means to check their age) and so on. I don't know full definition but basically they can add and remove stuff to this "objectionably material" list. Possessing data listed there is a crime. Recently, in New Zealand the shooter video go onto that list.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by CamperBob2 on Sunday May 05, 2019 @02:42PM (#19834267)
Cardinal Richelieu only needed six lines. Imagine what he could do with 500 GB.
Re:Canada Border Services seizes lawyer's phone, laptop for ... by sonnyblarney on Monday May 06, 2019 @02:03AM (#19837180)
"what kind of digital data is considered a customs-related offence"

It's not the data, it's what the data reveals.

Like an SMS with 'I put $100K in your panama account'.

Obviously a bad example but you get the idea.