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Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by yters on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:18PM (#19750318)
UFO just means "unidentified flying object," which could include things like a balloon, a meteor, another airplane, etc.

Not sure why everyone immediately jumps to "Navy admits there are aliens!"

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by cmroanirgo on Thursday April 25, 2019 @03:14PM (#19751519)
From the article:

> In some cases, pilots — many of whom are engineers and academy graduates — say they observed small spherical objects flying in formation. Others say they’ve seen white, Tic-Tac-shaped vehicles. Aside from drones, all engines rely on burning fuel to generate power, but these vehicles all had no air intake, no wind, and no exhaust. "It's very mysterious, and they still seem to exceed our aircraft in speed," he said, calling it a "truly radical technology."

> "Imagine you see highly advanced vehicles, they appear on radar systems, they look bizarre, no one knows where they're from. This happens on a recurring basis, and no one does anything,"

> “Pilots are upset, and they’re trying to help wake up a slumbering system,”

> In 2017, the Pentagon first confirmed the existence of the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, a government operation launched in 2007 to collect and analyze “anomalous aerospace threats.” As the Post’s Joby Warrick reported, the investigation ranged from “advanced aircraft fielded by traditional U.S. adversaries to commercial drones to possible alien encounters.”

etc, etc.

So no there's little that explicitly states UFO is all about ET, but the inference is very high, considering the credibility of the witnessess and the frequency in which such things occur. That the sightings are typically over restricted airspace (military bases) is also rather indicative that these sightings are not balloons, other (known) aircraft, nor meteors.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by derefr on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:26PM (#19753799)
I don’t see what privileges the hypothesis of “aliens” over “other countries’ aerospace R&D assets being used in an intelligence-gathering capacity.” Especially given the “seen over [i.e. examining] military bases” part.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by rotexo on Thursday April 25, 2019 @11:05PM (#19754506)
For that matter, what privileges "other countries' aerospace R&D assets being used in an intelligence-gathering capacity" (when those R&D assets at the very least bend what is possible in aviation) or "aliens" or "von neumann probes" or whatever over "inexplicable information is being released in a targeted fashion by some party intent on distracting the public from ongoing news events?"
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by derefr on Friday April 26, 2019 @10:31AM (#19757878)
Usually the null hypothesis (“the reports are made up”) is denied by the fact that these events can be—and are—just as often observed by neutral (but not naive amateur) observers. Often these events are reported by private pilots who were flying in the airspace, or air traffic controllers in civilian airports who see the thing on their radar, or meteorologists examining satellite imagery.

There are also reports that come from government-affiliated persons, but where those affiliations are very distant. Unless you believe that the US government somehow manages to get their shit together way better for UFO propaganda than they do for, say, evidence-sharing in criminal investigations, then I personally find it implausible that entities as distant from one-another as the US Navy, the National Weather Service, and NASA, would all be speaking from the same side of their faces.

(And also, re “distraction”—who exactly does a UFO report distract? There’s never been one that’s made front-page news AFAIK. Local news of a UFO sighting [without any local UFO crackpots to get inured to] might work to distract a very small town from a psy-op going on in the area, but even a moderately large city wouldn’t even notice the news. You’d do much better covering up a psy-op with, say, an amber alert. That usually becomes 24-hour local news coverage!)

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by rotexo on Friday April 26, 2019 @10:23PM (#19763383)
Fair enough, this stuff is weird and there are no good explanations available. Until something happens that truly forces me to update my informal priors, though, I still think your middle paragraph is more likely than "a country has access to physics-bending technology" or "aliens."
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by ianai on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:48PM (#19753911)
Not really a distinction. Both would be considered UFOs.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by derefr on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:55PM (#19753951)
The parent comment said “ET”, which is what I was rebutting.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by maxerickson on Thursday April 25, 2019 @10:07PM (#19754251)
Do pilots still do lots of amphetamine?
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by logjammin on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:45AM (#19754913)
I know HN comments are supposed to be thoughtful etc but all I have on this is fuckin lol well played
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by takeda on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:02AM (#19754972)
It's based on facts though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_and_culture_of_substit...

There is suspicion that it might be still used today.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by logjammin on Friday April 26, 2019 @02:18AM (#19755232)
No yeah I know! It gave it extra punch for some reason. Solid chuckle
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by burtonator on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:31PM (#19753824)
The key thing is we DO NOT know what these are?

Why can't they be unicorns?

As long as you're jumping to conclusions they could be flying unicorns as well as aliens. Both are as plausible considering that we have no evidence for either.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by darepublic on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:50AM (#19755133)
Unicorns are less plausible than extraterrestrials imo
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by 8bitsrule on Thursday April 25, 2019 @11:28PM (#19754608)
no air intake, no wind, and no exhaust...

None of those are needed for 3D holographic projections.

they appear on radar systems

That one may be a little tougher.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by segfaultbuserr on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:13AM (#19755011)
I generally find the idea of "alien comes to visit" is ridiculous, but I have to acknowledge that UFOs, specifically, the subset of it, "non-natural, artificial-looking, non-illusion (hey, they even appear on the radar!), real flying objects in the lower atmosphere that cannot be built by the current human civilization" is a true phenomenon after reading these reports.

But if they can be detected by a radar (at least some of them), it means their existence is not completely beyond the known realm of current physics. Doesn't it mean we can/should do lots of more objective observations of these phenomenon? For example, what are their infrared radiation patterns? What are their EM wave reflection patterns? What do they look like on the optical spectrum, what happens when you point a laser toward it, etc...

So why don't we see people doing that? Especially the military, because they always have enough funding to carry out a large experiment without immediate purposes, such as the HAARP, without assuming conspiracy theories, it's just an array of large and sophisticated HF transmitters, which just happened to be the subject of conspiracies. I think many military installations can be as suspicious as HAARP in the eyes of conspiracy theories, such as those VLF radio stations for communicating with nuclear submarines (conspiracy theorists can describe as them a mind-control device), or those phased-array for radio astronomy (conspiracy theorists can say, if moon landing is fake, why are they still launching these facilities? To create artificial natural disasters to install the new world order, or something... well, can I make a million dollars by becoming the next Alex Jones now?), but it just happened to be HAARP, rather than something like SuperDARN.

Jokes aside, one possible explanation comes to mind is that all researches are classified, and then it comes with full of conspiracy theories that rarely make sense. However, there are quite a few widely-documented UFO spotted by the public, which would allow the much larger civilian researcher groups to collect data, and these activities are very unlikely to be "silenced" as well, since they are already public. Another answer is that the researchers are biased, it may be true, just like the "classified military" explanation, but I don't think it can explain 100% of it. Military cannot classify everything, and not 100% of the established researchers are so biased that they even refuse to check it with some equipment (which is, as well, essentially for concluding that these phenomena are just illusions, not real).

I think the ultimate answer is their unpredictability. Their occurrence is essentially random. You cannot observe something with sophisticated equipment if you are not prepared to, even if you can, you cannot successfully establish a influential project to do that. An example would be ball lightning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning), most scientists before 1960s don't believe it's a real phenomenon, because no objective observations can be carried out, not even a single instance has been capture by the researchers until recently, in 2014.

I think the same goes for UFOs. And if you do see UFOs occur in a predictable manner, it's very likely that they are secret military aircraft or misidentified natural phenomena than "non-natural, artificial-looking, non-illusion, real flying objects in the lower atmosphere that cannot be built by the current human civilization"-kind of UFOs. On the other hand, imagine if there's a predictable occurrence of this kind of UFOs at specific locations around the world, there may even be recognized academic institutions to research them.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by driverdan on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:25PM (#19753064)
They're often stars or planets. Unless you have knowledge and training to identify celestial bodies it's easy to mistake them for something much closer. Distance is very hard to judge against a solid background like the sky.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by warent on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:08PM (#19753712)
This is a good point, but I've never heard of a tic-tac shaped star or planet.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by readhn on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:38PM (#19753539)
B.S.! Flying an aircraft requires a lot more skills from a human than typing code on a PC in your pajamas and talking about space. if you are a pilot who is flying for 10-20-30 years. You can tell. Now, this is not 1 pilot - 1 event we are talking. Many cases. Im not claiming its proving existence of ET or anything like that.

Just that perhaps there is something there.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by sjburt on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:51PM (#19753634)
SR-71 pilots complained about having trouble telling stars from fishing boats to the point where an additional artificial horizon was added for night flying. There were reports of pilots rolling the plane up to 45 degrees without realizing it.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by newnewpdro on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:25AM (#19755053)
The altitude the SR-71 cruises at is nowhere near where these sightings are occurring, it's practically in space.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by readhn on Thursday April 25, 2019 @10:05PM (#19754242)
apples and oranges. totally different conditions.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by ridgewell on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:40PM (#19752302)
>Others say they’ve seen white, Tic-Tac-shaped vehicles. Aside from drones, all engines rely on burning fuel to generate power, but these vehicles all had no air intake, no wind, and no exhaust.

These sound like weather balloons to me. I don't think most engineers or academy graduates are trained in meteorology either.

Not that I'm saying this is the definite answer or that I am somehow correctly inferring all of this. I'm just proposing that legitimate explanations exist.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by Razengan on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:49PM (#19752380)
Amazing how you cut the very next sentence after that quote which rules out ““balloons.””
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by inamberclad on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:57PM (#19753662)
> "It's very mysterious, and they still seem to exceed our aircraft in speed"

Not sure what balloon exceeds the speed of a jet aircraft in the same body of air.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by ridgewell on Thursday April 25, 2019 @11:24PM (#19754593)
A balloon at 50,000 feet rapidly descending doesn't fit the bill at all?
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by inamberclad on Monday April 29, 2019 @12:46AM (#19775909)
Not if it descends faster than 9.81 m/s^2 (or slower, since a deflated balloon will create a lot of drag), neglecting a violent downdraft on what looks like a pretty normal day.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by thestartup on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:36PM (#19750530)
While not a conclusion, the reports of objects that defy the known laws of physics are extensive by this point.

If the incidents are not the result of "alien activity" perhaps the US Military does have supremely advanced technology under wraps and is demonstrating this technology to ambiguously create the idea that it could be "aliens".

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by sago on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:15PM (#19753745)
"Defy the known laws of physics" is thrown about a lot. But usually means "If what we are seeing is a self-contained vehicle, it exceeds reasonable assumptions about manoeuvring envelopes for known technologies."

The "laws of physics" are pretty wide. There are many kinetic phenomena, entirely consistent with them, whose dynamics can't be filmed even at thousands of frames per second. There are all kinds of potential optical and electromagnetic effects (whether natural or intentional) that could show essentially arbitrary scale and motion.

"Def[ies] the known laws of physics", is a good sign your imagination is too narrow, or your understanding of physics too small.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by hermitdev on Thursday April 25, 2019 @09:39PM (#19754130)
Not trying to be pedantic, but I think this fits well with your comment.

To the best of my knowledge, the only accepted laws of physics relate to the 3 laws of thermodynamics. Everything else is still considered a theory (to the best of my knowledge), even if the theory works really damn well (for instance relativity is still considered a theory).

I know there are accepted "laws" in other fields related to physics, such as Ohm's or Kerchov's laws in electrical engineering, but I don't think these are generally accepted scientific laws, more generally accepted as engineering laws where for nearly all cases for engineering, they apply to a sufficient accuracy to produce products that are sufficient.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by paulmooreparks on Friday April 26, 2019 @01:14AM (#19755014)
You're confusing the colloquial meaning of "theory" with the scientific meaning. A scientific theory has been tested repeatedly and can be reasonably relied upon to make predictions (see relativity and GPS, for example). The colloquial meaning of theory is more accurately called a hypothesis.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by hermitdev on Friday April 26, 2019 @08:58PM (#19763066)
I'm not, actually. If relativity were a law, we'd presumably have unification with quantum mechanics. But we don't. Relativity works really well (well enough) in an enourmous number of areas, but not all and completely breaks down at the quantum level.

And, it only takes a single counterpoint to disprove a theory. Hence theories are signifcantly harder to prove than disprove.

What you're referring to as laws are theories that work well enough in some circumstances that needing something better isn't needed. Such as relativity to implement GPS. Newton's theorems in Principia Mathematica are generally good enough for most day to day type stuff. E.g. we dont need to involve Relativity to understand the physics being acted upon a car (thats not a Tesla roadster launched into space).

Science isnt much about coining laws. It's more about obtaining an ever more correct model of reality, and as you say, make (reasonably accurate) predictions.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by mehrdadn on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:35AM (#19754883)
> To the best of my knowledge, the only accepted laws of physics relate to the 3 laws of thermodynamics.

How about conservation of momentum?

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by chopin on Friday April 26, 2019 @03:53AM (#19755552)
Following Noether's theorem conservation of momentum relies on translational symmetry of space which we assume but have no proof for (other than measurements of conservation of momentum). In so far it is theory territory.

Thermodynamics on the other hand relies only on effects of large numbers (of hard balls) with no further assumptions. In so far I can understand the GP assertion although I am reluctant. You put in the hard ball assumption (particles can exchange energy) which may put it in theory territory. As well the laws hold only for equilibrium situations which can be reached in (sufficiently dense) baryonic matter but maybe not for non-baryonic matter.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by mehrdadn on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:39AM (#19754895)
> "Def[ies] the known laws of physics", is a good sign your imagination is too narrow, or your understanding of physics too small.

I don't know but I would assume they are usually referring to conservation of momentum being violated, rather than something like the 2nd law of thermodynamics or the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Which is pretty easy to see unless you have reason to believe there is something rather crazy happening that you cannot see (like I imagine a neutron being emitted at >99% of the speed of light to cancel some change in momentum that you otherwise can't explain).

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by hopler on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:40PM (#19750578)
Please link to some reports from reputable sources.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by joshuaheard on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:04PM (#19750852)
There was one on HN last year where Navy pilots saw an object hover above the water then shoot up 10,000 feet in a matter of seconds, hover there, then come back down to the surface. It bounced up and down like that several times then shot off into space. One pilot said the bouncing seemed like a preparation for its eventual takeoff. It was confirmed by Navy radar.

There was a great interview last night on Tucker Carlson where the expert said there are basically two possibilities that the military should explore: one of our terrestrial enemies has an aviation capability more advanced than ours, or an extraterrestrial civilization has capabilities more advanced than us. Of course, there could be some sort of natural phenomenon we don't know about. In any event, it is worth investigating in a rational way.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by lwansbrough on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:47PM (#19752366)
Linked in another comment is the incident you’re recalling: https://youtu.be/G9D8dzl4zGk
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by waiseristy on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:21PM (#19753029)
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by internet_user on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:13PM (#19753406)
hard to trust video these days, unless there is a chain of custody. How are we to know it's not someone testing their film director/CGI skills?
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by lwansbrough on Thursday April 25, 2019 @10:49PM (#19754445)
Did you even bother to click the link? There's like 2 minutes of prelude which lays out the chain of custody exactly.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by dogma1138 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @07:23PM (#19753458)
This was released by the pentagon and covered by very large media outlet, the pilots were interviewed.

This doesn’t mean it’s aliens but this is pretty fucked up.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by internet_user on Saturday April 27, 2019 @02:38PM (#19766949)
I wasn't aware it was released by the pentagon. I am under impression it was unauthorized release.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by mc32 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:58PM (#19751406)
Not sure if the upper atmosphere has something similar to Fata Morgana, but at least in the lower atmosphere it can deceive the location of objects in the distance.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by scanny on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:48AM (#19754929)
Don't suppose you have that HN link?
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by vorpalhex on Thursday April 25, 2019 @01:50PM (#19750691)
I don't know about "defying the laws of physics" (since if it could truly defy the laws of the physics that would be whack) but plenty of stealth bombers were reported as "mysterious UFOs" before they were officially revealed in any capacity - and I'm sure there is no shortage of experimental craft that never made the cut.

Hell, even if someone saw a B-2 today they'd probably think it's alien.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by PhaedrusV on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:21PM (#19752148)
When my mom watched "Independence Day" she started booing the B-2's because she thought they were aliens...
[dead]
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by sctb on Saturday April 27, 2019 @09:42AM (#19765448)
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by dsfyu404ed on Thursday April 25, 2019 @08:39PM (#19753864)
>Hell, even if someone saw a B-2 today they'd probably think it's alien.

They'd probably think they're living in the matrix and several pixels of sky are glitching.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by Izkata on Thursday April 25, 2019 @02:02PM (#19750831)
> I don't know about "defying the laws of physics" (since if it could truly defy the laws of the physics that would be whack)

It refers to objects that start and stop moving instantaneously, or make turns at hard right angles, as if they have no inertia.

Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by gdy on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:42PM (#19752324)
Very high acceleration and deceleration don't defy laws of physics.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by dx87 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @06:00PM (#19752896)
They didn't say very high acceleration, they said instantaneous changes in speed, like the object has no mass.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by Dylan16807 on Thursday April 25, 2019 @11:12PM (#19754533)
But the context is visual observation, where there's no way to tell the difference between the two.
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by abakker on Thursday April 25, 2019 @04:10PM (#19752036)
ball lightning?
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by MockObject on Thursday April 25, 2019 @03:24PM (#19751626)
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by logjammin on Friday April 26, 2019 @12:47AM (#19754925)
The back and forth in the comments is kinda fun to read, but regardless of what we think these things are, shouldn't we at least be stoked that someone (aliens, Chinese military) may have some cool-ass tekmology, and that the US Navy seems to think so too?
Re:U.S. Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs by em-bee on Friday April 26, 2019 @03:33AM (#19755484)
even if they are all glitches or otherwise explainable phenomena, if there is no formal process to record them, there is no way to formally analyze and explain them. those things that seemingly defy the laws of physics could become explainable if we could get more data about them and study them. it's the only way to get to the bottom of this. also further study will help reduce future reports as we then can train people to better understand them.

maybe that object flying mach 3 is an optical illusion caused by some combination of factors. like a mirage. by studying the effects and correlating the factors we'll come to understand them better and may even be able to predict and intentionally create them.

in short, this is by no means a hunt for aliens, but on the contrary, it's a hunt for data to help us understand our world better.