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Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by apo on Sunday April 21, 2019 @03:38PM (#19714083)
The Chinese are innovating totalitarianism faster than any other country. Take this, for example:

> ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that he whispered to the student next to him "89," which led the interviewer to surmise that the student may have concealed his knowledge of the event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

The fact that Leica, a foreign company, is now apologizing about the ad (and has deleted it from their YouTube account) shows just how effective the Chinese government has become at their trade. From the article:

> “Leica Camera AG must, therefore, distance itself from the content shown in the video and regrets any misunderstandings or false conclusions that may have been drawn,” Emily Anderson, a spokesperson for Leica, told SCMP.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by dx87 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:36PM (#19714425)
That reminds me of an interview with a Chinese esports team I saw at a tournament a few months ago. The interviewer was doing a light-hearted game where they showed twitch emotes to the Chinese team and asked what they thought the emotes meant. One of the emotes was a frog (the creator of the game goes by IceFrog), and the Chinese translator said that the players weren't allowed to say anything about the emote. We later found out that they were afraid to say anything because the nickname of the former president of China was "Toad King", and the players were worried that they'd get in trouble if they said anything about the frog emote.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by HAL9000Ti on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:56PM (#19714808)
Fasinating, I never heard about that one before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toad_worship_(Chinese_internet...

searching "膜蛤" on baidu.com yields zero results.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by helloindia on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:34AM (#19716981)
Similar to how "Winnie the Pooh" is censored in Chinese social media. Because, a meme became popular comparing Xi Jinping to the character. https://www.businessinsider.in/Pictures-of-Winnie-the-Pooh-a...
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by yrlihuan on Monday April 22, 2019 @04:42AM (#19717425)
You get the whole thing wrong.

In China, Toad King Warship (膜蛤文化) is very popular in some people, espcially young ones. There are tones of memes and internet jokes around that and obviously nobody gets into trouble because of it.

I don't know why your interviewer told you he was afraid. A wild guess is that he was one of those young people who loves Toad King Warship, and your ice frog reminded him of it. But it's hard to explain it to a foreigner (or he find it inappropriate to mention in an interview. it's a sub-culture anyway). So he just say he cannot say about it. As you further asked for reason, he gives you the answer you have in mind, by acting as victim of surveillance state (another culture thing).

[dead]
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by wahnfrieden on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:58PM (#19715324)
As a symbol of racist misogynist hate of marginalized groups, not a statement against a totalitarian leader. What exactly are you comparing?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by mistermann on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:27AM (#19716523)
Perhaps comparing how different cultures dramatically interpret or react to images, and how we often view the behavior of other cultures in this respect to be odd or silly, while our unique behavior is based in rational, fact-based logic. But that's just a guess.

Take your interpretation for example, am I mistaken to conclude that you believe all who post that frog are both misogynist and racist, or did I guess wrong? If so, could you clarify?

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by wahnfrieden on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @05:25PM (#19742742)
I did not say that. Not really interested in clarifying for you here, sorry. Not was the poster I replying to making a good-faith philosophical inquiry of the sort you’re suggesting.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Dylan16807 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:25PM (#19715446)
Not for talking about it.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Buge on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:38PM (#19715500)
It depends on what you say about it. If you say you think it's funny then you could get in trouble with some people.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Dylan16807 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:52PM (#19715555)
You can always find someone willing to jump to conclusions. It's easy to have an in-depth discussion about the history, symbology, use, the way meaning and irony are twined together... and if someone lowers their opinion of you after that then oh well, either there's no pleasing them or you earned it from your opinions. It's a far cry from having something that can't even be brought up, ever.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Buge on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:01PM (#19715594)
Yeah, but this is about when an interviewer with a camera asks for a quick comment about the meme. There isn't time to have an in-depth discussion about it. And it's difficult to be put on the spot like that with a camera in your face, and you know that whatever you say, people can replay that clip over and over again and spread it about the internet to criticize you. To avoid the potential backlash, declining to talk about it could be a smart move.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Jonnax on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:56PM (#19715805)
The man you seem to be talking about was a proud white supremacist that got punched in the face.

It's interesting how on the internet those in positions of power get described as the real victims.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Buge on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:48PM (#19716374)
I wasn't referring to any specific person.

The closest person I was referring to is the player in the "Chinese esports team" that dx87 was talking about. Or possibly a hypothetical white player on who could have been put in a similar situation by an interviewer. I guess they have a little bit of power due to their position on a top team, but I don't consider that to be much power. I don't consider them victims either, just humans who have their own set of goals and fears, that I can try to analyze.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by jtms on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:52PM (#19716393)
I believe this person was referring to the esports team not neo nazis
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by walrus01 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:06PM (#19715843)
What happens if you show them a photo of a Llama, and ask about the Grass Mud Horse?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Gigablah on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:58PM (#19716414)
That means you’re intentionally trying to get them in trouble?

This is as asinine as getting someone to say “bomb” at airport security.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by walrus01 on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:24AM (#19716949)
Right, I got it, here in the free world we should totally avoid Winnie the Pooh, Llamas, frogs, river crabs, or other things that are seen as anti-central-authority/anti-government by the powers in Beijing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-win...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_Mud_Horse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemisms_for_Internet_censor...

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by okmokmz on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:45PM (#19720399)
That's not at all what he said....
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by frostburg on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:30PM (#19714994)
Leica distancing itself from the ad isn't a good look.

The company is not very relevant for actual "working" photographers today (I use one, but tellingly photography isn't a real job for me), but it once was and at the time they stood up to their own homegrown totalitarian regime by helping jews escape Germany disguised as transferring employees.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by jessedhillon on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:13PM (#19715389)
The ad itself is supposed to be a tribute to photo journalists, highlighting the risks they're prepared to take in pursuit of the truth. I can hardly capture in words how incongruent Leica's actions are with their message.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by GuiA on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:27AM (#19716525)
Like many “classic” camera companies (Polaroid, Voigtländer, etc), “Leica” today is a name controlled by various holding entities and private equity firms. While it might bear the same name, it has very little in common with the original company (the one that saved the lives of hundreds of Jewish employees).
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by frostburg on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:50AM (#19717041)
This is not actually true. I mean, it's not under the ownership of the Leitz family, but it's basically steered around by Kaufmann and is more or less in continuity with its past (to the point that they moved back to Wetzlar).

Voigtlander is a brandname used by Cosina.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by duxup on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:15PM (#19714299)
They've even got totalitarian apps:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/world/asia/china-xi-jinpi...

>Schools are shaming students with low app scores. Government offices are holding study sessions and forcing workers who fall behind to write reports criticizing themselves. Private companies, hoping to curry favor with party officials, are ranking employees based on their use of the app and awarding top performers the title of “star learner.”

>Many employers now require workers to submit daily screenshots documenting how many points they have earned.

How long until we see weaker nations require the same of their own people? Participating in the firewall, etc?

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by oefrha on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:59AM (#19719956)
And that app is only used by / required for (? not sure) CCP party members. I know this because I have confirmed with personal Chinese acquaintances, including one party member and several non-members. While many Chinese nationals are party members, the vast majority aren't, so the app has nothing to do with them. The article doesn't mention that at all.

Also, I was told by the one who actually use the app that many of the quiz questions in the app are just about general scientific/cultural knowledge and stuff; only a small percentage involves current events (censored or not) or politics. I find that pointless, but again NY Times chose to cherry-pick the content here to paint a more horrifying picture.

It's intentionally or unintentionally (I don't know which) incomplete or cherry-picked coverage like this that makes me not trust Western coverage of China, Russia, or any other "enemy" nation at all.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by duxup on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:48PM (#19721634)
If you read it, the article clearly states it goes beyond party members. They did not forget or not mention that fact... they claim it is something else entirely.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by oefrha on Tuesday April 23, 2019 @02:24AM (#19726087)
I did read it, and just read it again. I don't see where "it clearly states it goes beyond party members", but maybe I missed it, so a quotation is welcome. The relevant descriptions include "Tens of millions of Chinese workers, students and civil servants...", "Many employers now require workers to submit daily screenshots..." but those don't really allude to party-affiliation or lack thereof (as far as I know college students are allowed to join the party, and I suppose certain workplaces like government offices might consist entirely of party members).

The article does say there are >100M users of the app, and according to Wikipedia, CCP has ~100M members, so the numbers appear in line.

More detailed anecdata: the aforementioned acquaintance who use the app is employed at a Chinese university, and according to him they do have an institution-wide rank (among employees; students not included); party members are ranked, but non-party members are not (because they're not required to "study", as I already pointed out). He even told me he's ranked at around 30% at the moment, lol.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by oefrha on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:02PM (#19719991)
Also, I find the claim "Study the Great Nation has become the most downloaded app on Apple’s digital storefront in China" in the article pretty unbelievable. No way it could beat WeChat, Weibo, etc., even if it does have 100 million users.
[dead]
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by microsage on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:09PM (#19716149)
This is completely unfounded speculation not found in that article or in any other writing on the topic(s) (of social credit scores and the study the great nation app). Or possibly it's an attempt at some dark humor through hyperbole. Either way, I see a lot of these sort of extreme claims on HN whenever China comes up, and I think we'd all do better to discuss what's actually happening rather than our wildest fears. This type of speculation really muddies the waters and makes it hard to have a thoughtful discussion about anything China-related on here, and China is a big, complicated, important topic right now that deserves careful consideration. It also risks undermining legitimate criticisms of Chinese policy, or at least making them less believable, which I assume is the exact opposite of the intent of the poster here.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by EGreg on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:23PM (#19721334)
Consider that already, purchases for mobility and communication are restricted based on social credit scores:

Cellphones

https://www.sfgate.com/business/amp/China-requires-ID-to-buy...

Trains

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g297411-i3650-k1024500...

There are official confirmations

http://amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2019/02/22/china-social-credi...

They also officially admit they can:

Throttle your internet speed

Ban your kids from some schools

Banning you from certain jobs

Taking your pets away

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-pu...

I think that predicting possible restricting ability to buy food is not “unfounded speculation” but rather pointing out something that can literally be one step away. If you help someone with a low social credit score who has been restricted, your score also lowers. The AI can track where you’ve been and who you helped. Uyghur markets are gone. Their freedom of movement has been restricted as they are in the re-education centers for years.

Are you really taking issue with the suggestion that food can be next, how much hyperbole is it given the scale of what happened in 2018 and 2019 thus far alone?

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by microsage on Monday April 22, 2019 @10:29PM (#19725099)
I don't want to have a big debate over what will and what won't happen in China in the future as I see you and I are working from very different assumptions and have very different approaches for extrapolating into the future. I'm just taking issue with the form of your previous comment, which took your personal fear of a Chinese policy that has not been suggested by the Chinese government, any China scholars, or even the most fearmongering clickbait hungry US reporter, and stated it as fact like so:

"Extreme claim not based in fact, stated as fact"

[link, implied to support the claim but doesn't]

When you do this, some percentage of people are going to take what you're saying at face value and believe that this is actual policy, especially since you seem to have provided a source (even though clicking on that source reveals it to be a paper thin cnet article that provides no support for what you're saying).

Frustratingly, you're doing it again here - you say "purchases for mobility and communication are restricted by social credit scores", and then you provide two links - one for cellphones and one for trains - that just say you need to use IDs to sign up for mobile plans and to buy train tickets in China, describing policies that existed long prior to social credit scores and have nothing to do with social credit scores. Those are also policies that exist in a lot of other countries, the first link you provide even says this in the first sentence:

"...joining many European and Asian countries in curbing the anonymous use of mobile technology."

Also, at least in my personal experience, you need an ID to buy a train ticket in the US as well. Also your source for that is a comment in a trip advisor thread about needing an ID to buy bus tickets, not train tickets, and consists entirely of people speculating and things they've heard second hand - a truly horrible source if ever I've seen one, and not in support of what you're saying even if it was a good source.

Without going through it, as I think it's pretty clear at this point that you're being very sloppy with your sources, that business insider article doesn't say what you're saying it says either.

Even looking past the many false claims here completely unsupported by the links you're providing, you can't just list a few things you don't like that seem "unfree" to you and then say you think that predicting keeping people that don't use an app regularly enough from buying food is a reasonable prediction. Or rather, go ahead and say it if you want but please just make it clear that it's your prediction rather than a fact like you did above, and be careful that the links you provide as supporting sources actually relate to what you're saying.

And please, please, please, be careful with how you summarize linked content - the way you do it here and appear to be doing it in your previous post is so inaccurate and so mixed with your own predictions and fears that I'm giving you a lot of benefit of the doubt by saying it's "sloppy" rather than "intentionally deceptive".

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by EGreg on Monday April 22, 2019 @11:30PM (#19725359)
Well of course it’s my prediction, and a flippant one also, but one that’s designed to draw attention to the problem, the same way that 1984 was designed to draw attention to certain policies.

We’re talking about a country that has extrajudicial detention facilities to detain for years and re-educate huge numbers of people who committed no crime, based not on due process but on their religion alone, including Falun Gong and Uyghurs and probably some underground Churches and Buddhists. They probably already have the food-based control I’m talking about. I mean, the trajectory and overton window is REALLY worrying. What I said is coming to be within that window.

[dead]
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by geomark on Monday April 22, 2019 @02:33AM (#19716979)
Perhaps you are exaggerating a little. As a middle manager, I had to go to some of those trainings. We did not have to write essays but we did have to answer multiple choice tests with questions that were so loaded we couldn't help but laugh. Nobody got fired, but there was a note put in our files about how compliant we were with the training.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by duxup on Monday April 22, 2019 @10:28AM (#19719168)
I've been to such training, but never heard of what you're talking about happening.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by jtms on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:57PM (#19716413)
fall in line citizen or face the consequences of your deviation!
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by spookyuser on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:06PM (#19714235)
> ... When undergraduate students at Peking University, which was at the center of the incident, were shown copies of the iconic photograph [of Tank Man] 16 years afterwards, they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork." It is noted in the documentary Frontline: The Tank Man that he whispered to the student next to him "89," which led the interviewer to surmise that the student may have concealed his knowledge of the event.

Reminds me of this: https://vimeo.com/44078865

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by sverige on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:43PM (#19715039)
Money quote: "Which unit are you from?"
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by noonespecial on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:04PM (#19715836)
they were "genuinely mystified." One of the students said that the image was "artwork."

Thats just spooky close to the "It doesn't look like anything to me" from Westworld. How long until they really don't see the man and the tank at all?

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by PavlovsCat on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:38PM (#19714716)
> Leica, a foreign company, is now apologizing about the ad (and has deleted it from their YouTube account)

Joining Mercedes Benz in that particular hall of shame:

https://money.cnn.com/2018/02/07/technology/mercedes-benz-ti...

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by adventured on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:27PM (#19714979)
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by snaky on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:43PM (#19715040)
MB sales on Western markets didn't drop because of that, so could we say that was a rational business decision by MB.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by PavlovsCat on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:18PM (#19715886)
Shame refers to morality and as such to the personal responsibility of individuals.

> There was a widespread conviction that it is impossible to withstand temptation of any kind, that none of us could be trusted or even be expected to betrustworthy when the chips are down, that to be tempted and to be forced are almost the same, whereas in the words of Mary McCarthy, who first spotted this fallacy: "If somebody points a gun at you and says,'Kill your friend or I will kill you,' he is tempting you, that is all." And while a temptation where one's life is at stake may be a legal excuse for a crime, it certainly is not a moral justification.

[..]

> It is fortunate and wise that no law exists for sins of omission and no human court is called up onto sit in judgment over them. But it is equally fortunate that there exists still one institution in society in which it is well-nigh impossible to evade issues of personal responsibility, where all justifications of a nonspecific, abstract nature - from the Zeitgeist down to the Oedipus complex - break down, where not systems or trends or original sin are judged, but men of flesh and blood like you and me, whose deeds are of course still human deeds but who appear before a tribunal because they have broken some law whose maintenance we regard as essential for the integrity of our common humanity. Legal and moral issues are by no means the same, but they have a certain affinity with each other because they both presuppose the power of judgment.

[..]

> What mattered in our early, nontheoretical education in morality was never the conduct of the true culprit of whom even then no one in his right mind could expect other than the worst. Thus we were outraged, but not morally disturbed, by the bestial behavior of the stormtroopers in the concentration camps and the torture cellars of the secret police, and it would have been strange indeed to grow morally indignant over the speeches of the Nazi big wigs inpower, whose opinions had been common knowledge for years. [..] The moral issue arose only with the phenomenon of "coordination," that is, not with fear-inspired hypocrisy, but with this very early eagerness not to miss the train of History, with this, as it were, honest overnight change of opinion that befell a great majority of public figures in all walks of life and all ramifications of culture, accompanied, as it was, by an incredible ease with which life long friendships were broken and discarded. In brief, what disturbed us was the behavior not of our enemies but of our friends, who had done nothing to bring this situation about. They were not responsible for the Nazis, they were only impressed by the Nazi success and unable to pit their own judgment against the verdict of History, as they read it. Without taking into account the almost universal breakdown, not of personal responsibility, but of personal judgment in the early stages of the Nazi regime, it is impossible to understand what actually happened.

-- Hannah Arendt, "Personal Responsibility Under Dictatorship"

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by epynonymous on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:09PM (#19715132)
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by throw2016 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:04PM (#19714573)
China is a totalitarian country. Its not a democracy so there is no point criticizing them for the lack of democracy but its democracies that must be held accountable, yet we do not see that right from Snowden, Assange and Manning to a culture of surveillance, torture, war crimes, secret courts and processes and border agents demanding to go through your personal papers.

You can't claim to be a democracy and do these things by definition yet not only are 'democracies' doing these things openly but we have people who seem less outraged by what's happening in their own 'democratic' backyards and more outraged by what a totalitarian country is doing.

This lacks credibility and seems more like a way to score political points than out of any genuine concern for democracy or human rights.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by rgbrenner on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:00PM (#19714835)
To be clear, there's the Chinese government and then the Chinese people. The Chinese government is criticized when it abuses the Chinese people. The idea that the Chinese government cannot or should not be criticized, is to say that it is acceptable to abuse the Chinese people.

While they may live in another country, they still deserve all of the rights and liberties that all human beings deserve.

The Chinese government should be criticized when they do things that infringe on the natural human rights of the Chinese people... just as any other person or government should also be criticized.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by mc32 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:16PM (#19714634)
We could have and still can apply economic pressure, but let’s face it, if the EU and US even tried, multinationals would complain it puts companies in peril or economic disadvantage. Before allowing them into MFN status or WTO, we had much better leverage, but that was wasted.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by yorwba on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:22PM (#19714659)
China does claim to be a democracy in its constitution, though:

Under the leadership of the Communist Party of China [...] the Chinese people of all nationalities will continue [...] to turn China into a socialist country that is prosperous, powerful, democratic and culturally advanced.

http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/Constitution/2007-11/15/con...

Of course the literal text of the constitution is completely ignored in practice, but criticizing that doesn't automatically lack credibility.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by Zuider on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:20PM (#19715670)
The word 'democracy' has been used in two incompatible senses.

In the West, we see democracy as a means of limiting the excesses of power. As Karl Popper noted, 'democracy' is not so much the answer to the question "who should rule?", as to the question "how do we prevent bad rulers ruling absolutely?". When 'democracy' is taken to imply the first answer, it is seen as the grounds of total legitimacy for the ruler. It is simply a substitute for the divine right of kings. In the second case, the ruler seen as having limited legitimacy, subject to the rule of law, of criticism, even ridicule, and of lawful challenge from other potential rulers.

When totalitarian states called themselves 'Democratic People's Republics' they were not so much lying as using the term 'democracy' in the first sense above. They were signaling that their governments had a legitimate claim to absolute power on the grounds that they were the expression of Rousseau's 'general will'. Those who clashed with the state were not seen as rebels against the ruler, but as 'enemies of the people'.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by ardy42 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @11:44PM (#19716353)
That's very insightful comment. I'd never thought about it that way. Thank you.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by SenHeng on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:09PM (#19715856)
Adding some personal anecdata, Singapore has been having a large influx of Chinese students for the past couple of decades and I have spoken with a few who are adamant that Tiananmen is made up because they ‘don’t know anyone who has actually been through it’.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by everdev on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:14AM (#19716476)
I bet 10-15 years ago the Tianamen video would be undeniable proof.

But now with deepfakes and other video editing, it wouldn't be that crazy for an average person in China to simply not believe the video was real if their government universally denies it.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by throwaway55244 on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:14AM (#19716473)
Are you speaking to them in Mandarin or English?

I find when I speak in Mandarin, and in a nonjudgmental manner, they all know about it.

Of course they all say the protest started due to labor reform issues and not because of democracy.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by tomc1985 on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:37AM (#19716567)
It's pathetic that companies are giving in to that pressure
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by 0815test on Sunday April 21, 2019 @04:08PM (#19714255)
> "genuinely mystified." ... "artwork."

It's all about plausible deniability. Funnily enough, that's exactly why censorship doesn't actually work - these things are precisely what people would say if they knew about the picture and its significance, but wanted to make an outer impression that they don't. I think it's quite possible that the Chinese nationalists "protesting" Leica's shameful, anti-Chinese campaign are playing a very similar game, even while clearly hinting that they do respect the government's authority. These things are not what they seem to be, there's a lot of subtlety involved.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by PavlovsCat on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:34PM (#19714701)
Oh, it works. The objective is to dissolve the bonds between people is dissolved that would allow them to collectively organize and resist. If everybody pretends they don't know, even if everybody else knows they do know, for all practical purposes, the objective of censorship is accomplished.

https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-Censorship-China-...

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by 0815test on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:02PM (#19714845)
"Collectively organize and resist"? That's really not what Chinese politics looks like, either today or in the foreseeable future. It's not just that the vast majority of Chinese are quite apathetic about politics (though they definitely are) - most of them nowadays think the government is actually doing a pretty good job, all things considered. And they're even less inclined to think that rocking the boat in any way would be a good idea. Now, these overtly-expressed positions might change, and even quite suddenly (that's just about the only difference censorship makes - you're not going to see any gradual shifts or impending warning signs), but only if there's some sort of crisis that prompts such a change; they're not going to change on their own.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by nercht12 on Sunday April 21, 2019 @08:01PM (#19715340)
> It's not just that the vast majority of Chinese are quite apathetic about politics (though they definitely are)

What? You have a source on this? Last I checked, people were jumping out of buildings to commit suicide so the gov put nets around the bottom. Things may have gotten better, but they are far from the ideal anyone wants to live in. I think the "apathy" you're referring to is actually "resignation" to the fact that they feel they can't do anything about the problem. Their country is dying off, and all they can do is watch. Miserably sad. :..(

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by throwaway55244 on Monday April 22, 2019 @12:20AM (#19716495)
That’s like saying, “the last I checked, Americans were shooting up schools, so there must be something wrong with democracy.”

Personal economic issues aren’t always caused by politics.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by hopler on Sunday April 21, 2019 @09:27PM (#19715709)
Many countries have suicide. What has that to do with suicide victims' opinions of the national government?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by PavlovsCat on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:08PM (#19714886)
You're basically just stating that the objective has already been achieved (not exactly a surprise with decades of murdering dissidents), and I never claimed otherwise.
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by daodedickinson on Sunday April 21, 2019 @05:04PM (#19714574)
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by 4ntonius8lock on Sunday April 21, 2019 @06:45PM (#19715049)
I'm curious as to what percentage of the US vs Chinese populations know about their own governments horrors?

I mean, what percentage of US students would recognize the Tuskegee experiments continued until 1972? I've had many people straight up tell me that is a lie, or a 'conspiracy theory'. In fact, I think this post will get down voted, despite asking a perfectly valid question and having concrete factual examples.

Not saying it isn't appalling that Leica is apologizing. Thought it makes sense from a business perspective.

I'm just curious to know what is more effective: the soft censorship of the west created by unwritten social norms or the hard censorship of the east?

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by icelancer on Sunday April 21, 2019 @07:08PM (#19715129)
>> what percentage of US students would recognize the Tuskegee experiments continued until 1972

Literally everyone who has ever had to take a medical or scientific ethics course knows this, since the IRB process was born specifically from this horrific abuse of science.

I'm guessing most high schools cover it in US History and/or World History, also, as mine did.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by AbitofAsum on Monday April 22, 2019 @06:19AM (#19717739)
I went to a rather nice semi-private high school (graduated 15 years ago) and Tuskegee was not covered
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by 4ntonius8lock on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @12:55PM (#19740342)
Thank you. It seems this is common knowledge in some circles. I know for a fact it isn't in others.

My post was just a question as to the overall percentage. Not whether there were any Americans who knew about the experiments.

Apparently asking questions and being inquisitive is bad now.

Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by danso on Sunday April 21, 2019 @10:51PM (#19716051)
How has Tuskegee been “soft” censored by the U.S. government?
Re:China Bans the Word 'Leica' on Social Media by 4ntonius8lock on Wednesday April 24, 2019 @12:54PM (#19740320)
I never said it was the government, in fact I even specifically stated unwritten social norms. It's interesting that a straw-man is being used to attack the argument.

Society is a complex system. The west has soft censorship via control systems.

If you can't see any now, that is fine. But we can deduct they exist from logic.

Here's an example: We can recognize the old ones. US newspapers and schools had effective censorship of, for example, the struggle of gay people in the US. The struggle was there, but it wasn't talked about. No matter the mechanisms to achieve this, it is effective soft censoring. While this doesn't exist anymore, it would be unreasonable to think we don't have similar blind sides now (I see plenty, but... that is neither here nor there, I'm going off logic)