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Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by KerrickStaley on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:08PM (#19617426)
The title of this article is misleading. "Backdoor" implies a deliberate mechanism built into the software, but here there's no evidence that the vulnerability wasn't simply a mistake.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by burtonator on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:21PM (#19617552)
This is the biggest problem with attribution in network security.

If Huawei wanted to do this the smart way they would implement a backdoor that's VERY tough to find but could also be justified by stupidity.

This way they have plausible deniability.

"We're not malicious. We just screwed up!"

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by ryanlol on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:33PM (#19617650)
Why would anyone malicious bother hiding a LPE vulnerability in a driver like this? What's the point if you're going to need another backdoor to actually get code exec in order to exploit this backdoor?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by kosievdmerwe on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:39PM (#19617709)
Because deniability is valuable in international relations? If a government can't prove something they aren't forced to act.

If it was obvious the Chinese government did this, then other world governments would have to respond with sanctions and import bans.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by ryanlol on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:39PM (#19617711)
Why would anyone want a LPE backdoor like this? You would need another backdoor to achieve RCE in an order to make use of your silly LPE backdoor.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by monocasa on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:50PM (#19617808)
I personally of the opinion that this is just a bug, and not an intentional bug

That being said, there is value in a LPE as a part of a bigger exploit chain. There's all sorts of exploits that'll give you relatively unprivileged code execution, and you'd want to silently elevate in order to make yourself persistent for instance.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by ryanlol on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:55PM (#19617850)
Windows LPE bugs tend to be quite cheap and plentiful, I just can't see much value in inserting a bug like this to possibly make it slightly cheaper on a few specific machines.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by monocasa on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @06:11PM (#19619495)
Windows LPEs are still up to $80k on zerodium, instead of the up to $50k for Linux, Mac, and BSD. Yes those numbers are funny money, and you're more likely to see a third of that, but they're still useful numbers in a relative sense.

Like I said, I think this is just a bug, but Windows LPEs do have value.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by anon4242 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:49PM (#19617801)
You can build a complete pwn exploit by chaining several seemingly innocuous (more or less) vulnerabilities together just so. This vuln provides the escalation, another provides the remote execution...

Then when someone says: "Huawei pwns us", they can just claim ignorance and stupidity because a small mistake here and there provides better deniability than some whitehat finding out that Huawei provides the Chinese government with the whole set of keys to the kingdom.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by bowmessage on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:11PM (#19617448)
Which is exactly how you'd want your backdoor to be perceived when discovered.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by jtr_47 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:18PM (#19617523)
I believe any piece of hardware that is sold local or internationally has a backdoor of some kind for government access. There are no mistakes. No company will say this, due to "laws" or "NDA" from a government that prevents the company from discussing these "mistakes."
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by ma2rten on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:25PM (#19617585)
Do you have any evidence for this claim?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by kekebo on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:36PM (#19617679)
It's generally hard to come by, leaving lots of room for assumptions. There was evidence of NSA tampering with ordered hardware in transit in the Snowden files, next to indications / speculations around certain cisco routers and even more about Intels Management Engine. But despite the last two being probable candidates I can't recall hard evidence for them.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:59PM (#19617876)
Targeted interdiction is a far cry from what the parent comment alleges. Targeting shipments to backdoor or bug an item quite obviously happens everywhere in the world and has since the dawn of time.

The Snowden files said nothing about Intel’s ME. That isn’t a backdoor either. It’s a great place to put one, but there are lots of great places to put backdoors, and that doesn’t mean that’s what the manufacturer is doing.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by jtr_47 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:05PM (#19617932)
Yes. The recent Huawei article above.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:56PM (#19617857)
You are not correct. That is a logistical nightmare and would be impossible to keep secret.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by jtr_47 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:08PM (#19617958)
I disagree with your statement. it's easy to keep a secret, if your life or livelihood is at risk, through blackmail or similar. You just haven't experienced it.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:38PM (#19618224)
That is irrelevant. You aren’t being realistic or practical. The US government didn’t, and couldn’t blackmail every past, present, and future employee who may come across source code or documentation or communication about a backdoor for every company that produces a hardware or software product. They also did not blackmail every independent researcher who might discover one. To even attempt this and expect it to remain a secret would be incomprehensibly stupid and we would definitely know about it by now.

There have been cases where specific things were targeted. This isn’t even close to every piece of hardware.

“There are no mistakes” is a ridiculous notion for anyone who has ever had a career tangentially related to software or hardware. I don’t know how someone who holds this viewpoint even managed to find this website. You really don’t think bugs ever happen by accident?

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by jtr_47 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:54PM (#19618327)
It's fine to be upset at my point of view and implied experience within this area. I understand 100%. There are some coding mistakes that cannot be tested or caught during development and deployment. These can be exploited. There are however some that appear to be mistakes and are allowed or missed during the process.

This is a great website for freely expressing opinions, truth, lies and such!

Peace be with you.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by lawnchair_larry on Wednesday April 10, 2019 @11:09AM (#19625441)
”There are some coding mistakes that cannot be tested or caught during development and deployment. These can be exploited.”

Do you have any examples?

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by gruez on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:19PM (#19617539)
>but here there's no evidence that the vulnerability wasn't simply a mistake.

So what, you want proof that the backdoor is deliberate? To do that, you'd either need some sort of internal directive from up top (good luck finding that), or the backdoor was comically bad (eg. if (signed by PLA) return true;).

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by shawnz on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:23PM (#19617566)
> So what, you want evidence that the backdoor is delibrate?

If the title of the article is "backdoor found", then yeah. I'm of the opinion that it was an intentional backdoor too, I think that was a pretty clear possibility to anyone who saw the initial writeup. But to come out and claim unambiguously that it was a backdoor is masquerading an opinion as news.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by monocasa on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:35PM (#19617668)
This. A good example is Cisco's predilection to add "undocumented accounts" to it's routers. Those are definitely intentional backdoors.

https://m.slashdot.org/story/343674

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by __jal on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:54PM (#19617844)
Yeah, I've always found it entertaining that their corporate culture is characterized by a unique multi-decade inability to stop those darn engineers from writing backdoor accounts.

It would be more entertaining if I thought other vendors were less likely to be compromised[1].

[1] https://www.wired.com/2015/12/researchers-solve-the-juniper-...

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by ryanlol on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:38PM (#19617704)
>you want proof that the backdoor is deliberate?

Seems like a very reasonable request.

The strictly local nature of this "backdoor" strongly suggests that it is not in fact a backdoor, if you're going to call it a backdoor maybe you should have the least bit of evidence to support that.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by basch on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:12PM (#19618005)
The conspiracy theorist in me would suspect that Huawei cloned or inherited existing backdoors from Cisco, Intel, Qualcomm code/tech they acquired. (not that they would necessarily be related to this news story.)

If the US security sector blew the lid on the backdoors, they would also be exposing their own backdoors, thus all they can do is generate FUD towards Huawei, and hope that they never need to present evidence.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by toddh on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:05PM (#19617921)
How can you differentiate between a camouflaged back door and a mistake? It's clear you would want plausible deniability, so you would make it look like a mistake. And if you have mistake after mistake when do they stop being mistakes?
[dead]
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by monocasa on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:12PM (#19617465)
So what, the Chinese aren't allowed to write bugs anymore?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by mar77i on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:19PM (#19617536)
Well usually, Microsoft is on the receiving end of the "vulnerability found" game. To me it would appear as if they're making sure that every single thing they discover requires media attention.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by AYBABTME on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:12PM (#19617459)
That's straight up racist.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:23PM (#19617560)
Maybe I'm not easily triggered enough but generally speaking when one says "the Chinese" or "the Nigerians' or "the Russians" in a discussion that's about international relations, geopolitics or similar, I tend to think they're talking about the nation and its government, not the people themselves.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by AYBABTME on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:34PM (#19617657)
If that's the case, the distinction was subtle enough for me to miss, and probably a lot of others. It isn't hard to say "the Chinese government" if that's what parent meant. Instead saying "the Chinese" in response to an article about a Chinese company's product is clearly ambiguous. I don't see how it's okay to gratuitously say anything about "the Chinese" as if that was somehow a valid, well defined and understood group that warrants being judged and stereotyped in such a wide manner.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by bllguo on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:44PM (#19617761)
But it blurs the distinction and it normalizes thinking about the Chinese people and the Chinese gov't in similar ways. Honestly I think it's irresponsible and naive - let's not pretend there isn't a rising undercurrent of anti-Chinese sentiment in the West.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by JamesBarney on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:58PM (#19618361)
All the rising anti-Chinese sentiment I've seen seems mostly geopolitical and not ethnic.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by shawnz on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:13PM (#19617477)
I assume they meant the Chinese government, not the Chinese people.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by diminoten on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:24PM (#19617575)
I think you're assuming some positive intent here that's definitely helpful to the conversation, but may not actually exist in this specific case.

For our part, I think us sane people can all agree that it's the PLC that we are suspicious of, whereas the people of (and from) China are wonderful people.

Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by drusepth on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:15PM (#19617500)
Is that any less racist?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by mikestew on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:27PM (#19617598)
I say this without even the slightest hint of snark: are you sure you really know what that word means, and the dichotomy of race and government?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by Moodles on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:23PM (#19617571)
Yes, it is a lot less racist actually. Are you serious?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by willhk on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:23PM (#19617563)
How is being aware of and concerned about the activities of a government racist?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by EpicEng on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:35PM (#19617667)
...Yes, because the Chinese government is not a race? Obviously?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by TomMarius on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:17PM (#19617511)
It's not racist at all, it's nationalist if anything.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by T800M101 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:24PM (#19617574)
The fact that national governments aren't to be trusted is not racist. Your implication and terribly bad misapplication of the word "racist" is more disturbing than someone not trusting said foreign government.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by ryanlol on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:06PM (#19617939)
Well, most of the Chinese people don't really seem to mind the fact that their government runs literal concentration camps. Perhaps it's fair to criticize them?
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by lawnchair_larry on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @03:00PM (#19617883)
It has nothing to do with race. Stop throwing around that word.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by Dirlewanger on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:18PM (#19617526)
Yeah, those military divisions that they have that are constantly pinging virtually every IP address in the world looking for vulnerabilities...they surely have good in their heart!
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by monocasa on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:25PM (#19617587)
I mean... All of the major governments do that, it's just IPs of botnets always tend to be Chinese or Russian since those tend to be the unpatched systems.
Re:NSA-style backdoor in Huawei laptops found by Microsoft by z2 on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @02:15PM (#19617494)
Could you please clarify if you mean all 1 billion Chinese nationals, their government, people anywhere of Chinese ethnic origin, or Chinese-domiciled companies and their workforce in general?