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Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by butterfi on Saturday April 06, 2019 @11:58AM (#19591370)
I've started to wonder if designing things to last is truly the best option. Sometimes well built things out live their usefulness and then you have this well built paper weight. Braun razors are a good example. I have one that still works, but I stopped using it after several years. No one wants a used razor, so what happens to it? I think we need to stop trying to make things a permanent as we can and start thinking more about sustainability.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by einr on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:54PM (#19591659)
No one wants a used razor

This attitude is part of the problem. Maybe you're right -- although there are 450 listings for used men's Braun electric razors on eBay right now so it's a bit stark to claim that "no one wants a used razor" -- but being squeamish about stuff like this is a silly attitude that we should change. "Eww skin cells and hair" is not a valid excuse to throw away functioning things. We have running water, dishwashers and disinfectants.

I don't mean this as an attack on you, but on this prevalent attitude in society that makes you feel like your used razor is worthless.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by chrisseaton on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:17PM (#19592189)
Medical professionals say that a used razor can transmit infections and recommend even monogamous couples don’t share them. They wouldn’t re-use a razor more than they’d re-use a needle. You need to apply a little common sense beyond saying re-use everything.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by dathinab on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:35PM (#19592271)
Many electric razors (at last in Germany) consists of a head (which is a bit plastic and the blades) and separate handle (which has the electric parts). So reusing the handles is just fine as they don't get into contact with any cut (through desinfect them anyway).

For classical razors you could have a culture of getting a high quality one when you start needing it and then keep it for a lifetime if possible (through you have to sharpen it from time to time).

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by jkestner on Saturday April 06, 2019 @05:31PM (#19593122)
#notallmedicalprofessionals, says my SO. Needles get thrown because they're cheap, and expensive instruments get sterilized. Boiling will kill the few things that can survive on stainless steel, like the virii that cause hepatitis.

But we don't need to nitpick one tree, and miss the forest of products can be designed better for reuse. The central issue in my mind is that companies are usually incentivized for obsolescence.

You have exceptions like Patagonia with strong DNA for societal good, but companies generally need some extrinsic motivation. What could be effective here? I can see service models working, as the company providing hardware would want longevity to save costs, but I don't want my stuff's lifespan to be connected to its manufacturer.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by blattimwind on Saturday April 06, 2019 @08:47PM (#19594029)
Surgery tools are a common application for ultrasonic cleaners, because "only an ultrasonic cleaner actually gets in all the small nooks and crannies of a complex instruments and removes blood and tissue from those" (or words to that effect).
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by hatsix on Saturday April 06, 2019 @01:59PM (#19592069)
Any buyers are in for a surprise, Braun changes their blade designs every few years and after 3 or 4 years, a replacement foil will cost more than a new razor.

I have an alert for whenever Amazon's algo goes wacky and the price drops, but it's only happened twice in three years.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by butterfi on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:39PM (#19592295)
Thats a fair point (I don't feel attacked, but thank you). I'm getting more at the idea that maybe we start planning for things to wear out in a more radical way. I was struck by a story about how the Japanese knock down old houses after 30 years (https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusabl...) and while this might be an extreme example, its an interesting perspective. Not without its flaws, but not without its benefits either.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by butterfi on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:45PM (#19592334)
I should point out that I don't think the Japanese home model is worth copying, only that it challenged the way I think about the "shelf-life" of a given thing.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by eecc on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:40PM (#19592599)
I think Japan knocks down homes after 30 years because their building technology have evolved so rapidly that it would be irresponsible to keep people living in vulnerable homes (a bit like running similarly outdated nuclear power plants /s) when much better options have been developed. Plus, we all realized concrete does not last as long as wat thought to be in the '60s.

What I mean is, Japan might be special and not necessarily generalizable.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by leetcrew on Saturday April 06, 2019 @07:29PM (#19593684)
on the other hand, there's gotta be much lower hanging fruit to pluck before we start using each other's hygiene equipment. there's a lot of stuff to be reused first that doesn't require thorough sterilization. for one thing, you could just use your own razor for longer if they were more durable.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by brailsafe on Saturday April 06, 2019 @07:43PM (#19593743)
I think hygiene equipment is a perfectly valid place to start. In some form or another, products in this category are used across almost every demographic—except for maybe hippies—every day for entirety of out lives. Not really something we stop needing, rather we probably end up using more over time. Much of this crap is tossed into the bin or the ocean.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by ozaark on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:02PM (#19591390)
It's "reduce, reuse, recycle" in that order. The most sustainable product is a product built to last.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by moron4hire on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:27PM (#19591524)
Yeah, I have found my cardboard Amazon boxes to be much more useful as mulch than putting them in the recycle bin, not to mention the fact that I'm pretty sure my municipality just dumps it all anyway.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by Cthulhu_ on Saturday April 06, 2019 @04:01PM (#19592693)
Cardboard boxes and any paper product for that matter already contain a lot of recycled paper, and if you live in a country that collects paper separately you shouldn't worry too much about it being dumped. Used paper and cardboard is worth money to collect and sell separately. https://resource-recycling.com/recycling/2018/08/14/the-late... mentions some prices.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by benj111 on Saturday April 06, 2019 @01:08PM (#19591742)
Are you contending that this is reduce or reuse?

It doesn't appear that you're reducing your use of boxes, and you aren't reusing the box as a box.

Recycling it as cardboard would seem to be better than using it as mulch, but using it as mulch would seem to be better than putting it in landfill.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by keerthiko on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:08PM (#19592444)
reuse doesn't have to be as the exact same thing. depending on how usable the product is for its original purpose as well, reuse <-> recycle is a spectrum -- if you tear up the box and then use it for something else like mulch, it's closer to recycle, but if you refashion the box to make a rabbit trap without destroying the box, it's not really being used as a box anymore but I'd say it's reuse because you are using it, and it could return to its original use as well.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by moron4hire on Saturday April 06, 2019 @08:10PM (#19593854)
There is only just so many times you can reuse a cardboard box, and there are only just so many boxes you need in your life. I receive more boxes than I need boxes, but the cardboard is still useful.

By using cardboard as mulch, I'm also not buying wood mulch. Some people do use wood mulch on top of their cardboard to give it a better look, but I just use grass clippings and raked leaves, which people typically also discard. So things that would end up being useless to me instead go back into my own yard.

Now, I suppose one could argue that the grass clippings could be used in a bioreactor to create methane fuel, but that's just more carbon in the air, when really we should be trapping it in soil and plants.

It's also a hell of a lot easier than bagging all that shit and hauling to the street.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by hedora on Saturday April 06, 2019 @09:40PM (#19594238)
The embodied energy (~= the energy used to produce) of the cardboard is much higher than that of mulch.

I’m not sure if the incremental energy to turn the cardboard into new cardboard (and transport it twice) is more or less than that of growing, mulching and transporting some scrap wood.

Anyway, that is probably the right computation to run.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by moron4hire on Sunday April 07, 2019 @01:01AM (#19594930)
The equation is not "spend energy on wood mulch VS spend energy on cardboard", it's "spend energy on wood mulch AND cardboard VS spend energy on cardboard". The cardboard is a given. We purchase things and they come in boxes. By using it as mulch, I then avoid the additional spend in energy, time, dollars, and effort on wood mulch.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by benj111 on Sunday April 07, 2019 @03:15AM (#19595317)
Mulch isn't typically paper grade wood though. It's either bark, or all the small branchy bits chopped up. So wood for paper and wood for mulch shouldn't be substitutable.

Where it does get marginal is with all the extra transportation and packaging.

"I then avoid the additional spend in energy, time, dollars, and effort on wood mulch. "

Agreed, that's as good a reason as any. Plus if we get to the point where our biggest problem is recycling or mulching cardboard I'll be happy.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by benj111 on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:22PM (#19592508)
Agreed, reuse doesn't have to be for the same thing, but to me it isn't a destructive process. Using cardboard for mulch is a destructive process. The cardboard will last a season if that.

It seems to me you're recycling the nutrients and biological matter back into the soil. This is a 'lower level' recycling than recycling the cardboard back to cardboard, and so less preferable.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by hinkley on Saturday April 06, 2019 @07:36PM (#19593714)
Cardboard mulch can be thought of as generative instead of destructive. You are recycling it into soil in the lead into gold sense of “into” rather than the trash into bag sense.

Cardboard is excellent substraight for saprophytic mushrooms, which are dominant in certain desirable types of forest soil. It’s a common trick in permaculture circles for simulating second growth forest succession without having to wait forty years (takes about six to twelve month).

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by dwighttk on Saturday April 06, 2019 @01:57PM (#19592049)
the most sustainable product is the one never built.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by coldtea on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:01PM (#19592090)
That's already covered by the "reduce" part.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by _emacsomancer_ on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:28PM (#19592537)
There's certainly a market for the old 'safety' razors as well as straight razors. The 'safety' razors of course require blades, but they still generate less waste than modern cartridge razors. Straight razors require maintenance (keep them dry; strop; sharpen very occasionally), but generate even less waste, and last well (I have one from the late 1700s).
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by potta_coffee on Saturday April 06, 2019 @08:24PM (#19593924)
I bought a pack of blades 5 years ago that I'm still working through. There are no plastic bits to throw away, which is a positive IMO.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by random878 on Sunday April 07, 2019 @03:32PM (#19599316)
I switched to a safety razor about 10 to 15 years ago. In that time I've bought two of them (one broke). All I need to buy are the safety razors which are cheaper and use less packaging. It's a win-win. Those fancy cartridge razors from the likes of Gilette are scam!
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by anticensor on Sunday April 07, 2019 @01:06PM (#19598189)
A cartridge razor is a safety razor.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by _emacsomancer_ on Sunday April 07, 2019 @01:26PM (#19598338)
I'm referring to non-cartridge 'safety' razors though. I don't know a good way of referring to this class. Many of these are DE (double-edge), but there are some SE (single-edge) types as well. Razors which are not straight razors or cartridge razors.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by hutzlibu on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:22PM (#19591501)
"No one wants a used razor"

I believe there are actually quite some people who would take it.

But along with sex toys, yes usually a razor is something not for reuse. But actually I cannot think of much more conventionel products who outlive their usefulnes.

Except allmost everything with a computer today.. will it connect to other services in 5 years, when the ones from today die out?

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by dkarl on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:49PM (#19591630)
There's a difference between sex toys and razors, which is the nature of the contamination.

People know how to clean their sex toys, which as a bonus are designed to be very easy to clean completely. (And when you do it the right way, it's feels obvious that you haven't missed anything. You don't have any lingering doubt.) With somebody else's sex toys, we have a feeling of contamination, but it's not physical, hygienic contamination. It's palpable, but intangible.

Razors are much more physically complicated, and many people never disassemble and clean their razor in its whole lifetime. They might know how to open it and shake out the hair that's inside it, but very few people bother to figure out how to clean every nook and cranny and wash out the oils that can accumulate in dark corners. With razors, I think people would be happy to buy a used razor if they knew how to clean it. But they don't, so someone else's razor will always feel dirty to them, in the hygienic sense.

Even if people did know how to clean a razor thoroughly, or had confidence that they could learn, they still might rather buy a new one for twice the price rather than put in the effort, but that's a judgement that can be influenced by the ethic of sustainability, if it was standard for manufacturers to design razors that could be cleaned with high confidence and a minimum of skill.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by Invictus0 on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:35PM (#19592580)
> They might know how to open it and shake out the hair that's inside it, but very few people bother to figure out how to clean every nook and cranny and wash out the oils that can accumulate in dark corners.

Have you seen a Braun razor? There are no corners. The product is as ergonomic as can be and since it's entirely waterproof, I don't know how you can say that "hidden oils" accumulate anywhere. The company even sells a station that cleans it for you. You've unwittingly fallen victim to the same effect you just mentioned: a feeling of contamination that is not actually there.

Ultimately, there is little reason for companies to design repairable products when most consumers disdain repair and even used items. I know many people that turn up their nose at buying used items such as cameras or headphones. "Certified pre-owned" is the magic dust that car dealerships need to sprinkle on their cars to make a used car seem new again, along with some vague incantations about inspections. Amazon even sells "expert assembly" packages for products as simple as a bookcase [0]!

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Atlantic-DrawBridge-Storage-Organizat...

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by lttlrck on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:10PM (#19591427)
Isn’t the point how long you used the shaver? And how many lesser shavers would you have needed in that period that would also have ended up on the shelf?
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by coldtea on Saturday April 06, 2019 @02:01PM (#19592081)
>I have one that still works, but I stopped using it after several years. No one wants a used razor, so what happens to it?

If it was really built to last (and not just some plasticky thing that happens to still work), then someone would very much want it. What's the problem with a "used razor"? People buy all kinds of used things...

More so, if it was built to last, any part that could be problematic (e.g. the blade being damaged by the use of the original owner), would be easily replaced, and the rest would be as good as new.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by devoply on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:11PM (#19591430)
You don't give any particularly good reasons for why you feel a certain way. You have a very specific product, a personal hygiene product so obviously if you no longer want to use it that's your prerogative but that does not negate the value of having something that lasts a long time.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by kpU8efre7r on Saturday April 06, 2019 @03:46PM (#19592623)
Not everything needs to last but I mostly agree.

Some items simply can't last a lifetime like shoe soles. You can buy a shoe that can be re-soled but even that will eventually wear down.

Tech products that outlast their usefulness or any product for that matter, should be made from more sustainable materials. Whenever I throw something out I get the mental image of that item sitting in a landfill for eternity and it upsets me. Moreso if it's mostly plastic and contains electronics. This disposable mentality is not sustainable.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by blt on Saturday April 06, 2019 @04:05PM (#19592721)
It's kind of funny in the reddit "Buy it for life" community where people are talking about, like, socks... the thing you grind your whole body weight onto 5,000 times per day. I'm not going to start buying expensive uncomfortably thick socks just so I can be happy about how long they last.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by kylehotchkiss on Saturday April 06, 2019 @04:22PM (#19592799)
Buy Darn Tough socks! If they get holes, you mail them back to Vermont and they mail you back new socks.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by eaandkw on Saturday April 06, 2019 @09:06PM (#19594104)
I second Darn Tough socks. I retired from the USMC and I will pay what ever they are asking for the socks. It really does make a difference on a 15 to 20 mile hike. Ever since I was issued my first pair I never went back and they are worth every bit of the $25 dollars per pair. I never got blisters since wearing them.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by kylehotchkiss on Tuesday April 09, 2019 @12:46PM (#19616556)
Thank you for your service! really cool they issued darn tough socks. Have you tried danner boots by any chance? good pairing :)
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by hinkley on Saturday April 06, 2019 @07:41PM (#19593738)
What’s the carbon footprint of sending them back and forth?

My heavy socks last forever because I only wear them when I put on my boots, which is maybe twenty days a year. Eventually the moths will get them.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by doubleunplussed on Saturday April 06, 2019 @06:59PM (#19593562)
You're kind of buying a sock subscription at that point.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by kevstev on Monday April 08, 2019 @12:20PM (#19606584)
Why would you assume that thick socks are uncomfortable? I find it quite the opposite- I wear almost entirely hiking socks these days, and find the thick wool to be like walking on puppies.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by wumms on Saturday April 06, 2019 @01:44PM (#19591975)
Just keep the old one in the attic.

Old Braun vs new razor is like nice laser printer vs. ink jet.

I bought a cheap Li-Rechargeable (Philips OneBlade). They charge you half the price of the whole razor for a single blade (15€) which sometimes breaks just when you fumble the long hair trimmer off of it.

Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by ajmurmann on Saturday April 06, 2019 @12:04PM (#19591398)
I recently heard the word "upcycling". It's very self-explanatory and clearly is what we need to do consistently.
Re:Dieter Rams designed products to last, is horrified how w... by thaumaturgy on Saturday April 06, 2019 @01:56PM (#19592043)
Drop it off at a local Goodwill or similar.