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Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by surfmike on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:16PM (#19566328)
Not surprising given that they don't tax electric cars and that normal petrol cars have taxes that can be around 100%, doubling their value.

Also, electric cars in Norway have lots of other incentives: reduced road tolls, registration fees, and petrol is heavily taxed.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by rcMgD2BwE72F on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:47PM (#19566600)
Are you saying that there's some kind of externalities at play here?

Because I can think of a few other externalities that help non-EV far more than the ones you mentioned (not taxing them for ruining our health and climate, for a start).

This all seems an overdue correction to me. But I'd go further and support non-individual transportation more, too.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by slavik81 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:30PM (#19567016)
None of the things mentioned in the grandparent post are externalities. An externality is a consequence of some action or some transaction for people who were not a part of it. A tax or subsidy directly affects the purchaser, and is thus not an externality.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by drexlspivey on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @06:42PM (#19567835)
Norway has large oil deposits. They export it and put the money in a sovereign wealth fund and use it to subsidise environmental policies. In essence this is payed by oil that someone else is burning.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by hc8bn1 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:04PM (#19566777)
Whether the taxes are just or not is irrelevant here; pretending people are buying EVs just because they like them better (which is what I get from the headline) is deceptive.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by hello_friendos on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:13PM (#19566873)
"Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway Making Up Nearly 60 Percent of Sales in March"

Where does the headline suggest that? It simply states the makeup of sales.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by hc8bn1 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:18PM (#19566921)
Yeah, it doesn't. But to me it sounds like that % of sales is organic. I mean, that's why it's news, no?

I think it's much more newsworthy that 40% of cars sold use petrol, when they cost DOUBLE because of taxes.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by Reason077 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @07:32PM (#19568120)
They don’t cost double. In many cases petrol cars are still cheaper than their electric counterparts in Norway. Hyundai Kona petrol, for example, is slightly cheaper than Hyundai Kona electric.

But because of their tax exempt status, the price premium for electrics is much smaller in Norway than in most other countries.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by magicalhippo on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:23PM (#19566962)
EVs do a lot of things better than gasoline vehicles beyond the reduced taxes. Maybe not huge things but still...

One small thing which I've started to really appreciate is the almost non-existing engine noise. So relaxing driving it.

Also the superior acceleration comes in handy many times.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by rootusrootus on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:52PM (#19566636)
Well, if you're going to blame non-EV cars for all sorts of negative externalities, you're going to need to figure out how to credit them for the positive externalities too. That's a tall order.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by beefield on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:55PM (#19566678)
You happen to have any examples of positive externalities non-EV cars have that EV cars do not have?
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by CamperBob2 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:22PM (#19566952)
Well, for one thing, anything that incentivizes the development and deployment of better batteries and power conversion technology will have massive benefits for us all. Renewable energy is more about storing power than generating it.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by reaperducer on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:59PM (#19566730)
Not the OP. And this is not for cars, specifically, but we're a very long way away from electric fire trucks, ambulances, and construction equipment.

Also, I'm not sure what the OP is on about with this:

not taxing them for ruining our health and climate, for a start

Since electric cars aren't taxed, either, that's just playing with numbers.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by sbierwagen on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:13PM (#19566869)
Why can't you electrify ambulances? They're specialized taxis, many short trips, spending a lot of time parked. Only time you need long range is for patient transfer between hospitals. Fire trucks only make short trips, and (ideally) have a tiny capacity ratio.

Ditto for construction vehicles, which rarely travel long distances, often want to be heavy for greater traction, and can have surprisingly low power output. (The Cat D5K2 weighs 20,000 pounds but only has a 105 HP engine: https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/smal... )

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by reaperducer on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @06:21PM (#19567733)
Why can't you electrify ambulances?

I can't speak for Norway, but in the United States it is very common for Ambulances to travel difficult roads and sometimes non-roads. They have heavy-duty engines for a reason.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by TylerE on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:25PM (#19566981)
Don't confuse power with torque. Big diesel engines run at super low RPM, so have low HP but high torque (since HP is just torque * RPM * a constant).
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by jsight on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:20PM (#19566934)
In business terms, we may be a long way from electric fire trucks, ambulances, and construction equipment.

In terms of the technology, I don't see anything stopping those from happening right now.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by douglasisshiny on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:05PM (#19566791)
I believe the op is suggesting that there have been significant deferred costs associated with burning fossil fuels.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by rootusrootus on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:59PM (#19567590)
How about modern society? The fact that we're even in a technological position to make EVs to begin with? It's all great to hate on cars, but the world we have today is absolutely dependent on them.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by angott on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:40PM (#19566536)
Also, keep in mind the extremely high salaries in Norway. Italy or Greece could decide to offer the same tax benefits, but still very few people would be able to afford a Tesla.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by TulliusCicero on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:45PM (#19566582)
I don't know why you got downvoted. Norway being quite wealthy is obviously a factor.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by tyfon on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:04PM (#19566784)
Most of the electric cars sold here are leafs and e-golfs though.

A tesla is still around 800k NOK which is a little less than twice the average annual gross salary or a quarter house (unless you live around Oslo or Stavanger).

I'm driving a toyota avensis myself, the test drive of a model s didn't give a good impression. I'm also not prepared to buy a car that expensive, even with taxes my toyota was 350k NOK. Hopefully there will be long range electric cars from some other manufacturer soon. I do have some hope for the solid battery tech that toyota is developing now.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by zemvpferreira on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:13PM (#19566877)
Still. I’m in Portugal and a Tesla costs 5-10x the average annual salary. An e-golf 2-3x I believe. Wealth matters.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by paavoova on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:42PM (#19567099)
Society's purchasing power worries me. How environmentally sustainable is it to replace all the billions of cars with electric? And then decades later, perhaps even under a decade given how fast some technologies develop, how sustainable is it to replace these electric vehicles with newer models? If people have the money, that's what they're going to do.

And specifically in regards to Norway, the country exports its oil to other countries and owns its wealth to oil, being one of the largest exporters. So while headlines on electric car adoption are nice, they really miss the big picture.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by TulliusCicero on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:24PM (#19567372)
> How environmentally sustainable is it to replace all the billions of cars with electric?

More sustainable than replacing them with more gas cars?

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by rconti on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:19PM (#19566351)
And Model 3 deliveries started either at the end of February or early March, meaning a lot of pent up demands/orders are being satisfied all at once.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by mitchellgoffpc on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:49PM (#19566619)
True, but Tesla is still only selling the AWD Model 3 variants in Europe right now, which start at ~$50k USD plus import duties and VAT. Even with government subsidies that’s still a really expensive car for most people. I’m expecting an even larger burst of orders once the RWD variants start shipping to Europe.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by lb1lf on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:59PM (#19566728)
Keep in mind that in Norway, fossil cars are (and have been for a long time) taxed to high heaven.

It is not uncommon for a car too double its cost as it is being taxed upon import.

Hence, in a number of other markets a $50k Tesla 3 is competing against a $25k (or whatever) Golf.

In Norway, a $50k Tesla 3 is competing against a $50k Golf.

(The numbers are just pulled out of a hat, but they illustrate the point; Norway is a very lucrative market to sell premium electric cars in as the tax advantages relative to fossil cars make premium EVs about as expensive as run-of-the-mill fossils - and they have a few other advantages like reduced tolls, driving in bus lanes &c.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by gnicholas on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:44PM (#19566580)
I was surprised the article didn't mention the upfront tax savings. Free parking and tolls are nice and all (and were mentioned), but I'd imagine the big incentive is the $40k-$100k upfront savings.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by josteink on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:31PM (#19566456)
> normal petrol cars have taxes that can be around 100%, doubling their value.

Id rather phrase that doubling their cost (making their relative value much lower).

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by vinni2 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:45PM (#19567121)
These incentives won’t be permanent though. Once a desired target for electric vehicles hit all the incentives will be taken away. Like they did in Denmark. Which dropped Tesla sales dramatically! https://nordic.businessinsider.com/teslas-sales-fell-a-jaw-d...
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by gridlockd on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:44PM (#19566581)
Kind of ironic for Norway to export all this petrol for cars to burn in other countries and then use some of that money to make domestic cars run on electricity.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:25PM (#19566985)
Not really. Norway gets 80-90% of its electricity from hydro. EVs are a great way of leveraging that natural resource, hence the difference in taxation.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by tyfon on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:36PM (#19567052)
98% [1]

For all practical purposes the electricity here is 100% clean except for emissions occurring during construction. Huge concrete dams add quite a bit of CO2 to the atmosphere when curing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Norway

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:08PM (#19567269)
Ah, thanks for the correction, I knew it was really up there, just not that high.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by vinni2 on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:48PM (#19567148)
But still they are able to subsidize EVs because they heavily tax the oil and make a ton of money exporting oil. If Norway wasn’t oil rich there was no way these subsidies would be economically feasible.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by marvin on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:04PM (#19567254)
I don't think this has much to do with the oil wealth. These are only subsidies in the sense that there is an absence of a tax that would otherwise roughly double the cost of the car. Almost no Norwegians would normally buy a car with an $80,000 (US) base price; most Tesla buyers would normally go for something less than half of that price. So the lost tax revenues aren't proportional to the price of the car.

Norway's oil wealth mostly goes towards a massive public sector and a very comprehensive social safety net, and it doesn't enter the economy directly -- only in the shape of a 3% dividend from previously invested oil tax money.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by vinni2 on Thursday April 04, 2019 @05:05AM (#19570377)
> So the lost tax revenues aren't proportional to the price of the car.

So what? It’s still lost revenue for the government. 60% of the car sales won’t give any taxes. And they still have to maintain roads and infrastructure for all those cars.

They are able to afford because the oil industry creates lots of businesses hotels and jobs and they pay taxes on their income. Which is a huge part of Norwegian economy. Imagine the economy of Norway without oil it would not have been so rich. Probably the closest example is Denmark they already abandoned the tax benefits for EVs. Because it’s a huge part of tax revenue the government can’t simply give up.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @05:08PM (#19567276)
They aren’t subsidizing EVs, they are just anti-subsidizing ICEs, which they were doing anyways before EVs were a thing.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by munk-a on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:54PM (#19566663)
I agree, it'd be nice of them to stop exporting oil so that other, less clue-having countries (like America), are pressured into making sane decisions for the long term.

It's probably not going to happen when America is led by a president who is making really incisive arguments against renewable energy like

> And you know, don’t worry about wind, when the wind doesn’t blow, I said, “What happens when the wind doesn’t blow?” Well, then we have a problem.

without anyone taking him to task for it.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by gsich on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:51PM (#19566631)
It's probably the only country that exports oil and is not a shithole (for a lack of better wording), or a dictatorship.

Edit: with oil being the highest export

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by newnewpdro on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:56PM (#19566685)
The US exports oil, so which is it - a shithole or dictatorship according to you?
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by beat on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:02PM (#19566763)
Can I plead the fifth?
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by gsich on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:59PM (#19566717)
see edit
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by prolepunk on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:08PM (#19566817)
> It's probably the only country that exports oil and is not a shithole (for a lack of better wording), or a dictatorship.

The wording is not lacking, you just need to try better, or you would sound like an ignorant person.

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by nickelcitymario on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:53PM (#19566657)
Canada exports oil. We are neither a shithole nor a dictatorship.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by munk-a on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:55PM (#19566677)
As a progressive and hip vancouverite... the part of canada that exports oil is a bit of a shithole and rather authoritarian when it comes to their dealings with the other provinces (thanks for the pipeline alberta!)
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by nickelcitymario on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @04:49PM (#19567162)
While I don't like the Alberta government, there's nothing authoritarian about them fighting for their own self-interest. Every province tries to do this. Some have more leverage than others.

And it's a beautiful province full of wonderful people, in my humble opinion. (So is B.C. I'm from Ontario, for what it's worth.)

Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by gsich on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:55PM (#19566684)
I should have added: country with oil as highest export good.
Re:Electric Cars Hit Record in Norway by oh_sigh on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:59PM (#19566712)
Canada, US, and the UK all export oil.