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Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by whatshisface on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @12:42PM (#19556062)
>WTF do you think they do all day?

One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy. If a soldier showed up at my door and pointed their gun at me, my reaction wouldn't be "of course you're doing that, your job is to point guns."

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by yorwba on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:02PM (#19556299)
> One would hope that they were trying to gain access to someone else's devices, as opposed to turning the guns towards their own citizens and economy.

Apple devices are sold all over the world, so there's no way of gaining access to the enemy's devices without that method also being applicable to everyone else. Actually using them on everyone else is a different matter.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by turc1656 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:20PM (#19559134)
"...no way of gaining access to the enemy's devices without that method also being applicable to everyone else."

That's only true of some methods like using exploits and other vulnerabilities, or mass-surveillance style methods. It's not true of other types like confidence tricks and social engineering, eavesdropping and potentially watching passwords being entered or getting them on camera, phishing, fake wifi points, tailored viruses, or cookie hacking. Those methods can be designed for a specific target. Of course, there's also the good old-fashioned method of getting a warrant for data.

The entire concept that the government has "a right" to this data - an argument I've seen judges actually make to justify these activities - is ludicrous. They don't have a right to it by default. They have a compelling interest in the data/information if and only if there is enough reason to believe someone is up to criminal activity. In which case they should have no problem at all getting a warrant.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by cdf2theworld on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:41PM (#19558859)
"the enemy's devices"

Which enemy?

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by Despegar on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:07PM (#19559046)
Strategic rivals: Russia and China

Regional rivals: North Korea and Iran

Authoritarian partners/allies: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, a bunch of other Middle Eastern countries

A bunch of countries flirting with authoritarianism: Brazil, Hungary, Poland, Israel

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by Mirioron on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @12:40AM (#19560800)
Seriously? This kind of stuff is exactly why countries are opposed to free trade and globalism. You listed two countries in the EU there, for example.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by apexalpha on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @03:40AM (#19561542)
Yeah if Poland and Hungary are 'flirting with authoritarianism' then the US with it's current leader is too.

If that sounds dumb to you, you should rethink the statement about Poland and Hungary.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by java-man on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:49PM (#19559921)
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by novaleaf on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:20PM (#19559139)
I don't think it's objectionable that any countries Intelligence Service tries to identify threats before it's too late.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by penagwin on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:00PM (#19556277)
Somethings like spying on American phone calls (or just their "metadata") I agree with.

But somethings like breaking encryption, exploiting iPhones, etc. while they may be used against Americans can also be used against others.

Essentially there's an arms race, and we use our tax money to sponsor our government in this race, with the hopes that they'll side with us. There really isn't another option unless you want to give a private entity this power, or not participate in the race (which I don't advise).

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:49PM (#19556754)
> Somethings like spying on American phone calls (or just their "metadata") I agree with.

> But somethings like breaking encryption, exploiting iPhones, etc. while they may be used against Americans can also be used against others.

Both of these can have a chilling effect on free speech, therefore I'm against the CIA doing this to citizens. The potential threat against citizens nowhere near outweighs the need to uphold our constitution.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by mywittyname on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:29PM (#19557146)
I think we all agree that they shouldn't do this to American citizens. The problem is we can't isolate their capabilities to just foreign persons.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by TremendousJudge on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:28PM (#19557737)
As a "foreign person", I'd rather like for no organization to come and record everything I do just because I wasn't born in a specific place.

Ironically though, the average American citizen is probably under more CIA surveillance than the average foreign person such as myself.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @03:34PM (#19557793)
I'd rather we didn't either. If we trust you enough to let you visit, work, whatever, then we should treat you respectfully.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by saagarjha on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:42PM (#19557275)
We could make doing this illegal and enforce it…
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by village-idiot on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:51PM (#19557375)
Unfortunately, other nation states might not care about US laws. Which returns to the above statement that it’s better for the CIA and Apple to be in a security arms war than it is for Apple and the FSB, at least from the perspective of an American.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by blattimwind on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:10PM (#19556974)
> Somethings like spying on American phone calls (or just their "metadata") I agree with.

Why keep pretending the CIA is a foreign intelligence service?

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by richardwhiuk on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:39PM (#19557253)
For some of us, it is.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by everdrive on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:23PM (#19556494)
No one outside of America has ever bought an Apple device, obviously.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by soraminazuki on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:28PM (#19559544)
People outside of America also have human rights.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by everdrive on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @07:38PM (#19559603)
I never said it was moral or ok, just that it doesn't suggest that the purpose is spy on Americans.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by ilrwbwrkhv on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @10:49PM (#19560373)
oh trust me... everything is tested at home first...
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by ficklepickle on Thursday April 04, 2019 @01:15AM (#19569511)
Or on Canadians. Our government has historically been very willing to let the USA experiment on unwitting civilians.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by rswail on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:24AM (#19560985)
Human rights have never excluded foreign intelligence services from engaging in espionage.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by baddox on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:19PM (#19557059)
I think it's pretty fair (although naive, obviously) to expect soldiers and intelligence agencies alike to, you know, actually just keep us safe.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by rswail on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @01:21AM (#19560969)
Well, by law, the CIA aren't allowed to spy on US citizens, that's the FBI's job.

However, there's nothing stopping them sharing capabilities with the Five Eyes and asking one of them to spy on a US citizen...

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by dictum on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:39PM (#19556653)
I'm yet to see a clear explanation for citizens not being as much of a risk as, say, a random foreigner located far away from your country.

If anything, a citizen is more capable of carrying out a terrorist attack, or just doing any action some foreign power wants to perform in that country.

The exception for domestic citizens seems to be just a concession for the masses and their representatives, not a pragmatic choice.

Edit: a pragmatic reasoning could be compartmentalization — keeping citizens under the watch of a separate entity (e.g. FBI) but it doesn't explain why domestic mass surveillance should be ruled out.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by nickelcitymario on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:00PM (#19556884)
> "...it doesn't explain why domestic mass surveillance should be ruled out."

It's a matter of who we have a responsibility towards.

The government we elect in our own country is responsible to us, and as a people we widely do not want our government spying on us. (This is true in most if not all countries.)

But that same government is NOT responsible to the citizens of other nations. The CIA has no responsibility towards Canadians (like myself) or anyone else who isn't American.

I'm not arguing that this is ethically right. I'm just saying it's pragmatic.

If you're not a citizen of my country, my country has no legal obligations to you outside of international law. And no country, to my knowledge, has ever tried to introduce the right to privacy into international law. Every country hates spies within its own borders, but seeks to have them inside of everyone else's.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by wefarrell on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:42PM (#19556680)
Domestic threats are outside of the CIA's scope.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by JustSomeNobody on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:46PM (#19556716)
The constitution and amendments to it give us certain rights. It really doesn't matter if citizens are a much larger risk or not.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by marnett on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:04PM (#19556924)
The American revolution was started because citizens did not want the government in their homes.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by nickelcitymario on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:09PM (#19556965)
I don't think that's historically accurate. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the battle cry of the revolution "no taxation without representation"? It wasn't about privacy, it was about wanting to be more than just a backwater colony.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by max76 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:28PM (#19557140)
"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." -- The 3rd Amendment

The early revolutionary war history overly simplified is something like this. Britain increases taxes on America. America stops paying taxes. Britain increases military presence to force America to pay taxes. America fought against the British military.

During the increased British military presence in America the British goverment did terrible things, including living in civilians homes and eating their food. This is what the parent comment meant when he said "The American revolution was started because citizens did not want the government in their homes." Ultimately, the British goverment was in American homes to help the tax collection effort, so your idea of early Americans caring a lot about taxation is also true.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by HeWhoLurksLate on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:46PM (#19557315)
Also, bootleggers who made money by smuggling stuff for cheap and selling it right below the full tariff price and weren't happy about the British ending their tariffs and making them lose money.

Also, the whole trial by jury of peers was really great for those like John Hancock (the guy who signed his name really big on the Constitution) who got in trouble with the British for smuggling and then would be invariably found not guilty by his employees. When military trials came into place, Hancock and his distributor buddies started getting jail time.

Also, by the way, Hancock shipping basically had a mob, who were responsible for a bunch of the rioting in Boston and likely the related Tea Party.

Just wanted to point out that America wasn't exactly formed out of ideology.

By the way- that big signature? Essentially the largest political middle finger ever.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by max76 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:57PM (#19557446)
I did say my history lesson was oversimplified. The question of _how_ Americans avoided paying taxes is always interesting, not just during this time period.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by SEJeff on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:52PM (#19557381)
There is an unbelievably good show about this called Turn, Washington's Spies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn:_Washington%27s_Spies

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by nickelcitymario on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:39PM (#19557247)
Ah, gotcha. I took it as suggesting the revolution was about privacy, but I see where I was mistaken.

Thanks!

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by dragonwriter on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:11PM (#19556988)
> wasn't the battle cry of the revolution "no taxation without representation"?

That was a slogan of the revolution, but there were more than one; it wasn't the unique complaint. There was also a fairly specific list of grievances in the Declaration of Independence.

Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by Bud on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @04:20PM (#19558182)
There was this document called the "Declaration of Independence" that I believe you might find useful in clarifying the answer(s) to your question.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by gcb0 on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @08:33PM (#19559845)
if it was exclusively no taxation without representation, we would be witnessing the H1-B armed revolt by now
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by ionised on Wednesday April 03, 2019 @09:33AM (#19563147)
That's the fairy tale version.
Re:The CIA Campaign to Steal Apple's Secrets (2015) by DaggerDagger on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:00PM (#19558523)
Let's be real. It wouldn't be that surprising given how the world actually works. Assuming you aren't an oligarch.