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Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by simonsarris on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:02PM (#19533513)
About a year ago I was at an airport (Boston? New Jersey?) outbound that had a sign or TV monitor saying "Great news, you no longer need to take your laptop out of your bag!"

I read this sign as a TSA worker shouted every 30 seconds to the shuffling line about how everyone needed to take out all laptops, "ipads", cameras, etc.

I wonder if it was a pilot program. Or more likely, just part of the constantly shifting fabric of pointless theater. I fully expect these new machines are primarily to sell machines, and not to fulfill any other purpose.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by TallGuyShort on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:29PM (#19533615)
If I had a dollar for every time I heard "listen to me, not the sign" from a TSA agent, I'd have enough money that the TSA would detain me for questioning about why I was traveling with that much money.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by dvtrn on Sunday March 31, 2019 @08:39AM (#19535280)
Or you could buy Pre-Check for everyone in the thread :P
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by seandougall on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:10PM (#19533542)
Yeah, it's always up to the whims of the underpaid TSA agent who happens to be there that day. Back when iPads were new, I got scolded for taking it out of my bag, and scolded for leaving it in my bag, by agents at the same airport on two trips a few weeks apart.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by chipx86 on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:37PM (#19533658)
I actually got in trouble more for leaving a Kindle and a game system in a bag on my last trip than on the previous trip when I accidentally had a utility knife in my bag's pocket.

I was sure I was about to be detained for the knife, but they simply told me I could leave it there or exit the security line and mail it back to my house for a $15 fee. I took that mailer option, walked out of the line unescorted with a knife, filled out a mailing form, put the knife in the bag, and went through security again.

This most recent trip, I checked carefully for knives before heading to SFO. When I entered the line, they were low on bins. I started taking things out and asked if I needed to remove the Kindle and game system. The TSA agent said I could leave them in, so I did. By the time I got to the other end, I was pulled aside and questioned, as they checked for any suspicious residue on the devices. They eventually handed me the devices back and escorted me to the beginning of the line, where I had to go through all over again, this time with the Kindle and game system in a bin.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by warent on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:30PM (#19533621)
It's always so strange to me that people seem to consistently have bad experiences with TSA. I've travelled more than the average person and have never had a bad experience with TSA. Maybe because I'm a young white male?

Once I even accidentally packed a small toolkit in my carry-on rather than my checked luggage and they let me keep it!

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by umanwizard on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:12AM (#19533797)
How do you react to petty authority figures in general? How much did it bother you when, for example, elementary school playground monitors enforced arbitrary rules capriciously?

It bothered me a lot, to the extent that I still have vivid memories of it, and I also hate the TSA with every fiber of my being.

So I think it might just be a personality thing.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by throwawayjava on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:31AM (#19533883)
I've been thinking about this lately because I also hate the TSA way more than is even remotely rational.

Even for frequent fliers, the TSA is pretty far down on any rational list of complaints about government. I fly almost every week, but in the past 12 months I have probably spent a lot more time at city hall on a stupid residential parking permit than I did in (non-customs) airport security lines.

In addition to personality, a lot of people project much larger political ideologies onto the TSA. You see a lot of that even in this comment section.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Reelin on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:26AM (#19534058)
> the TSA is pretty far down on any rational list of complaints about government

Only if focusing exclusively on direct interactions.

From an ideological perspective, I don't think it's projection (your wording) to observe that in their current form they align closely with both general government authoritarianism and the exercise of federal power over the states.

From a pragmatic perspective, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be alarmed about how such security measures seem to normalize invasive government behaviors in general. Societal norms and values aren't static, so how we do things in the present can and does affect how the public views things in the future.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by umanwizard on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:36AM (#19533897)
Right, I'll be the first to admit that it isn't totally rational. I get much more upset about the TSA, since I see their petty authoritarianism face to face, than I do about things that affect me much more but only indirectly.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by reshie on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:10AM (#19534011)
i think its just the invasive aspect. personally i have not had too much issue but one time i pulled up my pants possibly weirdly (boxers and pants unaligned that i could feel) and a overzealous tsa officer thought it looked suspicious not a strip search but they got grabbier than usual. white male too.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by gumby on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:23AM (#19534048)
Think how depressing it must be to collect a paycheck to annoy people to do something you know is utterly pointless.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by tjpnz on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:25AM (#19534491)
Are you sure they know that themselves? As others here have noted TSA agents aren't the most employable/educated types.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by jcims on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:26PM (#19533601)
In the last 8 days:

CMH->MCO ‘remove your belts please’

MCO->SEA ‘keep your belts on’

SEA->CMH ‘i’d recommend you take your belt off’

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by jkqwzsoo on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:43PM (#19533681)
At one point, I was travelling with my dad when the "shoes off" policy was relaxed (I think the shoes-off policy was relaxed a couple of weeks/months after the shoe bomber plot, but I can't recall exactly when -- and then it was put back permanently).

"Agent": Sir, I recommend you take your shoes off.

Dad: That's okay. I don't need to take my shoes off.

"Agent": Sir, I'm going to need you to take your shoes off NOW!

In addition to challenging the authority of the Memphis TSA agent, my dad is half Japanese and looks quite a bit less white than I do.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by scruple on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:15AM (#19533821)
My father has stopped flying entirely. He's got a pacemaker and sometimes needs a cane and has a small list of medications that he legitimately needs to have with him at all times. He's diabetic, as well. Though he's not very overweight, he just doesn't move as well as he once did.

TSA has made flying for him and people like him so incredibly difficult. He's just opted out. I don't blame him, either, though it does make visits more challenging now.

I mean honestly.... Why do people like this have to take their shoes off and manage all of their carry-ons and personals into bins and onto belts and ... The entire farce of the TSA is all so callous and genuinely stupid.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by aeternus on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:19AM (#19534193)
I'd really like to see an analysis of the total number of passenger-minutes that are spent waiting in TSA lines. Divide that by the avg human lifespan and compare it to the number of people killed or injured by a terrorist attack.

When looked at like that, TSA costs more total lifetimes than have ever been taken through terrorist attacks.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by fgonzag on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:58AM (#19534567)
By multiple orders of magnitude proabably. I'm going to go ahead and call 5000 people who have been killed by aviation terrorism events. Assuming they all live to 90 years old, that's 450,000 man years tragically lost.

The FAA website stats that 630,000,000 people fly per year. If each of them takes 10 minutes to cross the line, that's 105,000,000 man-years lost per year...

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by jcims on Sunday March 31, 2019 @06:41AM (#19534847)
You’re mixing man years and man hours. But it’s still over 11,000 man years spent in lines at the airport.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by fgonzag on Sunday March 31, 2019 @06:53PM (#19538969)
Wow, you're absolutely right. Screwed the math hard there. 10 minutes was a very low estimate though, especially in bigger airports like Seattle, SF, NYC.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Scoundreller on Sunday March 31, 2019 @05:17AM (#19534622)
That 630m figure is for US domestic flights.

Otherwise, thanks for doing the math on how much of our lives is killed by security screening.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by GordonS on Sunday March 31, 2019 @10:27AM (#19535732)
Check Bruce Schneier's blog, I seem to recall he did some kind of breakdown like that a few years back.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by smelendez on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:59PM (#19533742)
I've seen this sort of things in videos of police encounters, too. "I suggest you do X" or "would you mind doing X" is some officers' way of being polite, but it leads to dangerous misunderstandings. When people say no, taking the statement literally, cops see them as trying to start a fight.

I'd love to see law enforcement trained in using basic, declarative sentences: "Sir, regulation X.Y.Z says you have to take your shoes off. Please step aside, do so, and rejoin the line."

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by seandougall on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:57PM (#19537508)
That would require them to know what regulation backs up their request. Which in turn would require such a regulation to exist. TSA has a particularly bad track record on this (to be fair, the regulations did change absurdly rapidly for the first decade or so of their existence), but I’ve even encountered this problem with police officers.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by rhizome on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:56AM (#19533961)
Don't say "no," don't be confrontational, don't say anything. They'll be obvious about it if it's not optional.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by dbdjfjrjvebd on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:09AM (#19534006)
It should not be the responsibility of individual members of the public not be threatened or assaulted by the authorities! Such rapid escalation from friendly to threatening should be a retraining issue.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Reelin on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:34AM (#19534083)
> They'll be obvious about it if it's not optional.

I don't believe this is required (or even typical) in the US. Law enforcement is generally allowed to make non-mandatory requests and hope that you comply with them. A prime example is needing to explicitly invoke your right to remain silent (https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127352...). You might also look up videos of people refusing to cooperate with the immigration checkpoints in various states along the Mexican border.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by inferiorhuman on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:51PM (#19533712)
Yeah they told me to leave my belt on before going through the metal detector at OAK a few years ago. That worked out about as well as expected. More recently I flew out of JFK T4 a couple times (protip: don't) and on one of these trips all hell broke loose when someone's pet cat escaped. Security theater indeed.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by deathanatos on Sunday March 31, 2019 @03:34AM (#19534364)
SFO->PDX: "Remove all electronics and any metal from your person." "You can keep your watch on."

I'm wearing a smart watch, of course, with plenty of metal in its construction.

Nowadays, I just stash anything not made from cotton in the bag to go through the X-ray well before I get into range where TSA officers can given contradicting instructions and then berate me for not following their directives.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by blankobj on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:35PM (#19533646)
I was on a business trip in a suit years ago and had to take my belt off. By the time I got through, someone took my belt. TSA agents couldn't find it. Didn't have time to do much else besides suck it up. I was flying w/ a superior mentioned TSA lost it. Not sure if he believed me... but definitely cost a lot to buy a new belt at the next airport. Still had my laptop though.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by mevile on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:27PM (#19533605)
> I got scolded for taking it out of my bag, and scolded for leaving it in my bag, by agents at the same airport on two trips a few weeks apart.

You are describing the the usual daily cluster-fuck of life in the military, and in fact, government service in general. I don't know why it is that way, but it is. I have not experienced it in my now 20 years of life in the private sector, but back when I was in the military it's just like that, all the time.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Godel_unicode on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:50PM (#19533707)
This is what happens when you compensate people with authority rather than, you know, money.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Zak on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:48PM (#19533698)
If I had to guess about the military, it would be a combination of the fact that doing it wrong gets people killed, a constant need to optimize, improve, or respond to changing conditions, and a lack of sophistication to tell the two apart.
[dead]
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by DoreenMichele on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:15AM (#19533823)
Scolding is the essential foundational mentality of the job. They get paid to actively look for bad behavior. This makes it very easy to find all things to be suspicious at a minimum.

It actually makes it quite hard to not start seeing everything and everyone through a suspicious lens. The odds are good that there are additional structural reinforcements. They probably don't get rewarded for anything else. They may even get actively penalized for not behaving that way.

At my corporate job, I was instructed to a. Look for a reason to pay a claim rather than looking for a reason to deny it and b. Look out for the customer rather than cover my own ass.

Then I had a claim for a benefit that was only paid once a year. I knew the six week period it occurred in, but not the actual date. I got dinged by Quality for paying it.

My ultimate solution: I no longer work there. But most people just do what they need to do to get their damn paycheck. Fighting the good fight is usually not what they get rewarded for.

Office Space:

"I have 7 bosses. If I do something right, no one cares. If I do something wrong, everyone comes down on me like a ton of bricks. I spend all my time trying to not get yelled at."

(Or words to that effect.)

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by bogomipz on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:01AM (#19533746)
>"Or more likely, just part of the constantly shifting fabric of pointless theater. I fully expect these new machines are primarily to sell machines, and not to fulfill any other purpose."

Indeed that's the more likely. I recently had a TSA moron tell me that my iPad did not need to come out because "it's not a computer." I explained that it might not be a laptop but it was still very much a computer. You can't make this stuff up.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by fancyfish on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:50PM (#19533708)
It seems every airport has its own different security theatre just to keep us on our toes.

In Newark, I put my backpack in the plastic bin. Vegas, put the bag directly on the conveyor belt. LaGuardia, stack the bins after picking up your items. Vegas, do not stack the bins.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Scoundreller on Sunday March 31, 2019 @05:22AM (#19534630)
My favourite is when different countries create different carryon regulations.

Pro tip: if you’re crafting aircraft security regulations for a living, get on one of those aircraft to get together to create a harmonized set of regulations.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by cocoa19 on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:56PM (#19533727)
Buy TSA friendly backpack. Problem solved.

Bought mine at BestBuy. Samsonite 5580680. The zipper goes all the way down so the bag is split in 2, a pouch holding your laptop and the other half holds the rest of your stuff. This lets TSA X-Ray equipment inspect your laptop only without cables, cellphone, and gadgets on the way.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by chrischen on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:05AM (#19533765)
Yea i Bought a backpack advertised as TSA friendly that can open completely. While in theory it works, the TSA agent still yells at you to take everything out.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by pishpash on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:30AM (#19533878)
TSA agents don't want to understand how their screening science is supposed to work (or not work). They just follow scripts.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by Moto7451 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @12:36AM (#19533898)
Unfortunately I’ve found that the new tray systems they’re installing make the backpack versions of this obsolete since they won’t open all the way inside the bin.
Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by admax88q on Sunday March 31, 2019 @03:45AM (#19534404)
"Just buy this product."

TSA continues to fulfill its mission flawlessly.

Re:Laptops to Stay in Bags as TSA Brings New Technology to A... by valleyjo on Saturday March 30, 2019 @11:53PM (#19533717)
Maybe it was for TSA Pre-Check