News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by iandanforth on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @12:50PM (#19444042)
This seems like an overly critical article. Zoning laws and NIMBY impulses should be fought tooth-and-nail and I'm glad Airbnb is doing so. The platform has allowed me to actually enjoy travel in ways I never could before.

What I feel like is missing is a communication path from the community to the platform. Because people start by calling the police to complain it immediately becomes a legal and local ordinance issue. If it were easy to report abuses to Airbnb directly, or if local police were instructed to contact them, the platform could better regulate itself.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by braythwayt on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @12:58PM (#19444138)
Why should zoning laws be fought tooth-and-nail? If I buy a house in a neighbourhood full of single-family dwellings that are all one and two storeys high, should I be able to build a condo building on my land?

Can I open a nightclub in my house?

What about parking? Can I pave my front lawn and rent the space out as parking spots? Or maybe put a dumpster there for local businesses to put their trash in?

There's a tree on my boulevard. Can I cut the tree down and park a truck on the boulevard?

I decided to run a grow-op in my house. When I turn the electricity on, the lights fade in my neighbours houses because the load on my grow-up is so much bigger than the equipment is designed to support.

Tough luck for my neighbours, correct?

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by iandanforth on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:02PM (#19444193)
Mostly correct. US zoning laws in particular are responsible for urban sprawl, separation of services from housing and the massive environmental impact that produces. Default mixed use is demonstrably more efficient use of land. Cleaver neighborhoods are toxic.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by tzs on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:41PM (#19444688)
> US zoning laws in particular are responsible for urban sprawl [...]

Houston managed an impressive urban sprawl without zoning laws.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by asdff on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:45PM (#19445435)
Just because you are allowed to build 100 stories into the heavens doesn't mean you will when its cheaper to build flat across an empty swath of land. When you hit capacity on that empty swath of land, like in the LA basin, but aren't allowed to build high to meet demand, like in the LA basin, then you have a supply problem.

Imagine the mess that NY would have looked like if Manhattan was limited to single family homes. The city would sprawl across half of NY, NJ, and CT easy.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by bluGill on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:53PM (#19444818)
Houston has zoning laws - they mandate parking for example. The laws are generally more lax than other places, but some of their mandates encourage sprawl.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by astura on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:02PM (#19446255)
Houston has zoning laws, they just don't use the Z-word.

https://kinder.rice.edu/2015/09/08/forget-what-youve-heard-h...

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:04PM (#19444224)
>Why should zoning laws be fought tooth-and-nail?

Because infringing on people's right to do what they want with their property deserves a hell of a lot more scrutiny than it gets right now. Trying to centrally manage what can be done where doesn't scale. See SF housing prices.

>Can I open a nightclub in my house?

As long as it meets the standards that night clubs have to meet then sure. You're unlikely to be able to do these things and be commercially successful enough to subsity in primarily residential area.

>What about parking? Can I pave my front lawn and rent the space out as parking spots? Or maybe put a dumpster there for local businesses to put their trash in?

Sure. Just be aware that you might be on the hook if you do a half-assed paving job and the runoff affects your neighbors. Once again if you truly are in a residential area where this kind of thing is not appropriate you will have a hard time being successful enough at it to annoy anyone who isn't already annoyed by everything.

>There's a tree on my boulevard. Can I cut the tree down and park a truck on the boulevard?

This is more complicated because you get into right of way issues and the city usually has a pretty substantial right of way beside the road (sidewalk?) but sure, if none of that is an issue then feel free to cut it down.

>I decided to run a grow-op in my house. When I turn the electricity on, the lights fade in my neighbours houses because the load on my grow-up is so much bigger than the equipment is designed to support.

If the power company was worried about QoS to the other customers on the street they wouldn't give you the massive breaker you need for that operation. If the neighbors are really bothered by it they can complain to the power company and if they complain enough then it will get addressed. There is no need for laws for this sort of thing. Once again if you're really in a residential area you're unlikely to get that kind of service if you really are somewhere it would be a problem. The power company has internal rules about what service gets installed where (basically their own zoning) in order to ensure that breakers on bigger equipment upstream are not tripped during times of peak load.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by braythwayt on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:20PM (#19444402)
There's nothing stopping you from buying a piece of land and having no zoning controls. Then you can market it as a neighbourhood for people who want to be free.

Good luck finding anyone to live in that kind of neighbourhood by choice. If you have an area with zero controls, it quickly will become a race-to-the-bottom.

The kinds of people who want to live in a nice neighbourhood, and be nice neighbours, will go live somewhere else.

It turns out that people feel the same way about freedom to do what you like with your single-family home as they do about the freedom to drive a car without getting a license or being insured, and the freedom to drive on whichever side of the road you like, and the freedom to drive a vehicle without smog regulation or safety rules.

Most people don't want your freedom, because the upside of their freedom is greatly outweighed by the downsides of their neighbour's freedoms.

They'll all just go any set up gated communities where everyone buying a home must contractually agree to the neighbourhood's own regulations.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by ratfaced-guy on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:20PM (#19446426)
You know most of the world has much more lax zoning and land use laws than the USA right? Somehow they manage to have nice neighborhoods with nice neighbors.

There's also nothing wrong with gated communities and in fact that would be vastly preferable to having a few rich people make everybody in the city abide by their own arbitrary regulations.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by sfotm on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:50PM (#19444783)
These examples vary in how outrageous they are, but some of them have the ability to singlehandedly depreciate someone else's most valuable asset by tens of thousands of dollars without any sort of recourse. Even if the nightclub or parking ventures aren't successful you'll probably have a hard time getting the same value out of that house.

And that's fine?

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by ratfaced-guy on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:17PM (#19446396)
Yes, it's fine. You bought your lot, not your neighbor's. Zoning and land use laws are one of the primary reason why America has such shitty yet simultaneously expensive cities.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by exolymph on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @04:29PM (#19446512)
Yeah. You have no right to ROI on any investment.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @08:04PM (#19448232)
Agreed.

If you're buying the property for any purpose other than flipping then ROI from the sale of the property itself shouldn't be a serious consideration. Either you're living there and sale doesn't really matter so long as you don't get shafted too badly whenever you do sell or you're renting or using it commercially in which case the cost to acquire is sunk and the returns from that should more than make up for change in value and whatever you get from a sale at the end is just a bonus.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dogcomplex on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:38PM (#19444655)
I mean... every one of those examples involves construction/renovation or directly impacts neighbors. Having guests over in your unchanged house, parking in your designated parking spaces, and just happening to charge money for the experience is a much more reasonable grey area - and doesn't affect tenants much if they hold the guests to the same behavioral standards as the original tenant. If they were just regular roommates/friends, it would be pretty intrusive to ban such behavior, especially if they're not violating maximum occupancy rules. I agree it's a violation in spirit, and many of the above rules get broken anyway, but there's definitely a grey area here that needs a different set of rules.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dmitrygr on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:10PM (#19445055)

  > and doesn't affect tenants much if
  > they hold the guests to the same
  > behavioral standards as the original tenan
How do you hold them to that? What leverage do I have over the loud bachelor party at the house you rented out next to mine?
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by stale2002 on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:06PM (#19444248)
> Why should zoning laws be fought tooth-and-nail

Because it is mostly used by rich property owners to artificial prop up the value of their capital investment, to the detriment of renters and people who cannot afford to purchase properties.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by braythwayt on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:20PM (#19444417)
I'm 100% up for making long-term rental more available. I am not in any way supportive of the SF model.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by duxup on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @12:51PM (#19444064)
>If it were easy to report abuses to Airbnb directly, or if local police were instructed to contact them, the platform could better regulate itself.

I don't think Airbnb really cares to do that... and that kinda is where the problems start in terms of what Airbnb is really all about.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by braythwayt on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:01PM (#19444178)
I'm the absolute last person to think that tech can be trusted to regulate itself for anything. We've seen how companies like Amazon and eBay cater to their power sellers, how social media caters to its advertisers, &c. &c.

It would be delightful if AirBnB were to be the exception, but as Reagan(?) said, "Trust, but verify."

Who does the verifying if we remove local government from oversight?

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by duxup on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:03PM (#19444209)
Yeah I agree.

1. I don't think Airbnb cares to do it at all.

2. It would be a very hard job even if they tried to do it.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by evilotto on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:34PM (#19444602)
It's funny how all the "disruptive" startups have the same basic business model of taking money away from someone who was getting it before (generally local governments, but that cascades to many other people like medallion holders); giving some of that money to the customers and call it a discount, and keeping the rest of it for themselves.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by duxup on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:40PM (#19444675)
There very much is a pattern there isn't there....

Also wonder how many of them structurally work to disrupt themselves into a sort of untenable situation.

Like can Facebook exist at its scale ... and not sell everyone's data or just behave as it does?

Can gig economy companies exist without grabbing into tips / passing risk off onto delivery people?

I don't know.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by iandanforth on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @12:58PM (#19444143)
Hrm ... ok here's a specific change I'd like to see they have a "neighbors" portal. But if you try to input a complaint it's hard to find a listing nearby and they say

"If you can’t find the listing’s web address, enter the street address and we’ll try to locate the listing. In order to protect our hosts’ privacy, we won’t be able to confirm the existence of any Airbnb listings or follow up with you."

This supports your point and should be changed.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by duxup on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:33PM (#19445332)
Kind of amusing they hide it that way, seems like a good way to get AROUND any local zoning or anyone to identify folks who are buying up units wholesale to rent them out.
Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by skrebbel on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @12:59PM (#19444150)
> If it were easy to report abuses to Airbnb directly, or if local police were instructed to contact them, the platform could better regulate itself.

And the fact that they don't have a feature for this shows that they don't care. They just think that a few lawsuits here and there are cheaper than adequately dealing with community complaints.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:01PM (#19444188)
>Because people start by calling the police to complain it immediately becomes a legal and local ordinance issue.

That's because in the kind of "upscale but not too upscale" kinds of places where AirBnB tends to flourish conflict resolution is such a lost art that calling the police on each other is what people do.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dahdum on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:07PM (#19444252)
I'm calling the police well before I walk over to the Miami Beach apartment blasting music at 3AM, likely filled with coked up aggressive young men.

Simple conflict resolution works great with reasonable people, but those aren't the kinds of people blasting techno and screaming all through the night.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:13PM (#19444329)
> Simple conflict resolution works great with reasonable people, but those aren't the kinds of people blasting techno and screaming all through the night.

It may even be that more often than not, it is people where simole interaction would suffice on an individual basis, but there are two factors that still weigh in favor of summoning law enforcement:

(1) The social context of one where any individual you deal with would lose face by backing down to anyone without compulsory power, and

(2) Even if the above was not sufficient to tip the odds to “most probably individual interaction will not be productive”, the potential cost of interaction with “coked up aggressive young men” or the like doesn't require a very high probability that that is the scenario before it becomes an unacceptable risk even if the expected net benefit of individual interaction is positive.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by cronix on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @01:07PM (#19444258)
> What I feel like is missing is a communication path from the community to the platform.

Why? The issue is between the homeowner and the community. The fact that they're using AirBnB or anything else is irrelevant. The homeowner is responsible for what occurs on their property, and the community has a right to set standards via HOA's, city/local ordinances, etc.

The communication path should be between the property owner and AirBnB to discuss issues with their private contracts/arrangements/deals.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by clumpthump on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @02:35PM (#19445341)
>If it were easy to report abuses to Airbnb directly

They have made plenty clear that they don't really care about how people near the rental unit are affected. They will never make this happen unless "NIMBY impulses" put enough pressure on them to do so.

Re:Airbnb’s ‘Guerrilla War’ Against Local Governments by temp23894 on Wednesday March 20, 2019 @03:58PM (#19446215)
You're confusing "let's build more residential housing for residents" with "let's open up homes meant for full-time residents to transient visitors."