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Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by rland on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @02:32AM (#19317005)
I have been toying with the idea that travel is the ultimate expression of selfishness and narcissism. I have a place that's very dear to me that is similarly being eroded by a crush of visitors. They are loud, cause crazy traffic, carve into the natural rock, fall down cliffs and require medical help, etc.

20 years ago, you might have had 3-4 people on a given weekday sunset visiting to see the view. Now, that number is probably approaching 100. On weekends it's a throng of people, almost like standing room only.

It's a beautiful place, and it's inarguable that anyone should be able to see and enjoy it. But really, are most of those people there to see the beauty of the place? Would they be there if not for the opportunity to post it on social media? It's not like this is a hidden spot whose location was revealed by social media. It's a well known natural area. It just didn't get this crowded until it became hip to take photos of yourself in some beautiful place.

And then I realize, this is what people who live in areas with real tourism must feel like, except magnified to nightmarish proportions. Travel contributes greatly to carbon emissions, destroys environments, puts stress on local wildlife and people... just so that someone can have an ~experience~ for themselves.

The thing is, I think most people have a great deal of "interesting-ness" right near home. They just compete globally on Instagram, which requires a plane ride.

I don't hold this opinion, I'm just trying it on for size -- I've traveled to a lot of very beautiful places and had cool experiences, so it'd be hugely hypocritical. But yes, I really dislike the Instagram effect.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by maaaats on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:13AM (#19317184)
> I have a place that's very dear to me that is similarly being eroded by a crush of visitors.

But why is you visiting it okay, but others not? It's like being stuck in traffic and hating on other drivers. In the article's case, it's their homes, so I can see it being annoying. But for landmarks that get popular, I don't see how one is justified in hating on other people going there. It's just a tragedy of the commons.

I also dislike how Barcelona and others are handling the problem. Taking tourists' money and harassing them.

I say this as someone who grew up in a mountain resort. Yes, it is annoying during winter when people flood to "my nature" and "my ski spots". But if it weren't for those people, my family or no one else would live there as there wouldn't be any jobs. So then it wouldn't be "mine" anyways.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by rland on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:21AM (#19317222)
You’re right, of course. I grew up nearby and spent many summers there as a kid, that’s why I have some connection. But the place is not mine.

The reason I brought it up in the first place is because only within the last 10 years has it really gotten “bad” — completely because of instagram.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by roymurdock on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @07:22AM (#19318328)
you're on to something, but are missing an important part of the equation

instagram influencing is now a business. it's advertising without the clear disclaimers or statements for who is paying for that advertising and why

a lot of this advertising requires traveling to cool/famous/chic/rugged locations and taking photos or videos there, so that followers feel they are also there, and get to see a cool place through the eyes of their "friends"

it's more than just social points gamification, it's a business, it's advertising with real money involved, and these natural settings are becoming the new ad studios that it's cool to shoot in (besides places like venice beach and rue cremieux)

and when businesses/money get involved, the natural respect for the environment/others using the space disintegrates in the face of profit and time maximization

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by justaguyhere on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:18AM (#19317799)
Blaming a website (I don't use Instagram and I am not a fan of it) for people's generally shitty behavior is stretching it, don't you think? It is absolutely possible to travel respectfully (one can't avoid the plane ride, other than that, sure) - respecting the local people, landmarks, wildlife etc. But many travelers lack this basic decency and common sense - even if Instagram died today, these people would continue to behave the same.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ip26 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:02AM (#19319893)
Instagram is in some sense just a label for the greater phenomenon.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by treerock on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:33AM (#19317277)
I don't think you can blame instagram. These problems are happening all over the world, and I doubt that many of the tourists actually use instagram.

I suspect cheap flights and accommodation, changes in fashion (city breaks vs package holidays), more disposable income and free time are all contributing.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Scoundreller on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @04:45AM (#19317608)
I think any solution needs to be better than “ it was okay when only rich people could do it, but became a problem when poorer people could do it too”
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by extra88 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @07:44AM (#19318439)
They were describing an alternate explanation of the cause of the problem, not a solution. And yes, an activity can go from being not a problem to a problem when poor people start do it because there are a lot more poor people than rich people. 1000 people doing something will cause a lot more wear and tear than 10 people. Also, with greater numbers, there's a greater chance of one of them being a thoughtless jerk who causes harm.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ktjfi on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:06AM (#19317727)
You're making it a class problem when nobody here has mentioned class.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Scoundreller on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @06:00AM (#19317976)
Cheap flights and accommodations were mentioned.

Flying is an unusual product that gets cheaper over time. Supply has increased.

Airbnb has had an impact on hotel pricing and availability.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by hopler on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @08:51AM (#19318850)
Almost every product gets cheaper over time.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Scoundreller on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @09:09AM (#19318963)
Inflation says otherwise.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by kbutler on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @10:48AM (#19319749)
Inflation does not change the real cost of goods and services, only the nominal cost.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Scoundreller on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:30AM (#19320134)
And the costs of flying and accommodation have actually gone down in real terms.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by darksaints on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:37AM (#19320188)
That's not true outside of theoretical context, much like the concept of efficient markets. In reality, inflation does change the relative real costs due to the mechanism by which inflationary monetary policy is implemented: debt. Products that rely heavily on debt (construction, airlines, etc.) will be affected by inflation differently from products that use little of it (technology, fashion, food service, etc.)
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by kbutler on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @12:40PM (#19320841)
That's an interesting, but unusual perspective.

It's commonly understood that not all prices change in lock step, but "inflation" is the general or aggregate change in prices, usually based on the change in the purchasing power of money. Choosing to finance or pay cash for a car or a house doesn't change the price of the item, just your cost of acquiring it - it exposes you to expected future inflation, in addition to the current price, because you will be paying back the incurred debt with less-valuable future dollars. The interest you pay also pays for the use of someone else's money for the period of the debt.

Note, too, that inflationary monetary policy is also implemented by creating money in other ways, like a printing press, and inflation can also be caused by supply/demand shocks, like changes in supply/demand of fundamental commodities, like oil.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by tormeh on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @08:03PM (#19324695)
I just don't think this is true. I mean, I see your point, but it just doesn't seem to be that significant in practice. Possibly because the interest you get at a bank has inflation priced in. In reality, more or less everything is getting cheaper in real terms. There are some exceptions, like housing (urban land), and services (people's time) but these are exceptions.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Moru on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @04:15AM (#19317456)
Yes, this has been happening the last 100 years or so, to different locations over the world. There is always something that gets noticed on TV or whatever channel exists att he time. And then some entrepreneur uses the hype to make trips with tourists to this location.

Just an example: https://www.slice.ca/travel/photos/most-popular-travel-spots...

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dagw on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @04:25AM (#19317502)
Yes, this has been happening the last 100 years or so

A lot longer than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by kbutler on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @10:55AM (#19319814)
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dgarceran on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @04:39AM (#19317572)
I'm from Barcelona, I don't see how anybody is harassing the tourists or how the city is taking their money (touristic fees/tax exist in most of the cities). If you are annoyed for some words on a wall... well, then you should learn a bit about gentrification and understand why are they there.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Aromasin on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:11AM (#19317756)
I visit Barcelona quite often for work, but do try and visit the local area while I'm there and do 'touristy' things. I've had, on three separate occasions, groups of men harass and shout profanities at me, telling me to f- off back home, or calling me a filthy tourist; once going as far to follow me around jeering while I was taking photos, trying to intimidate me and forcing me back into the more populated areas.

I'm not surprised you don't see how anybody is harassing tourists; you're a local so you don't get harassed. That's doesn't mean it's not an issue.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dgarceran on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:34AM (#19317865)
I'm used to be with tourists here and most of my friends here are from other countries and we are all the time speaking in English and doing these "touristy things". It never happened to me or my friends. Can I ask where did that happen?
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by slowmotiony on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:14AM (#19317779)
What should I learn about gentrification to understand "TOURISTS FUCK OFF"?
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dgarceran on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:59AM (#19317974)
That those airbnb many people get are kicking out the families off their neighborhoods, that tourists are being the priority instead of the citizens, that that type of economy is just erasing local businesses -created for daily life and not for a weekend holidays-, that it's degrading the quality of life of those who live there... Las Ramblas were once a place for the people of the city. Most of young people now can't name a single spot there that is useful there for someone who lives in Barcelona. I could continue but if you try to look at the future seeing what happened in the last 10-15 years, you can see Barcelona turning into a theme park instead of a city. Being controlled by external economy does no good to anybody anywhere, and that's why you can read "tourists fuck off" in some walls. If you travel you should be aware of the type of tourism you're going to practice and the consequences for the area you're visiting.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by hopler on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @08:55AM (#19318871)
Locals should be attacking the landowners sucking money out of the economy, not the visitors pumping money into it.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dgarceran on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @10:00AM (#19319351)
They do too. Is not as simple as having money or not, the social fabric is the base of healthy neighborhoods and tourism is really invasive against that matter. I said a bunch of reasons there. The visitors should be aware of that. Why would we want to have more money if we don't have a place to live that we can call home? Or if those who are "pumping money" are making our life's more expensive while our salaries remain the same? I don't think you are addressing the problem from the vision of someone suffering the gentrification.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by engineeringwoke on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @12:43PM (#19320861)
I've experienced the same experiences as those mentioned above in Barcelona. You clearly agree with those terrorizing tourists out of some misguided blame.

The reality is that the rich Spanish sold the rest of you out for a quick buck. That's why there aren't any good jobs and any reason to stay. Those that stay whine and complain. Yet every Spaniard I've talked to in northern Europe talks openly about the whining and the lack of desire to get to the root of the problem or take responsibility.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dgarceran on Thursday March 07, 2019 @04:55AM (#19326811)
I have a good job and most of my friends do now, the weather is nice, my family is here... There are many reasons to stay in my situation. In my opinion going to northern Europe sounds way more like avoiding the problem rather than taking any responsibility.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by odessacubbage on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @12:18PM (#19320651)
just as a semi related matter of curiosity, what is the local's perception of skateboarders there? is it a source of annoyance to live in a skate-mecca or are people basically ok with it?
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dgarceran on Thursday March 07, 2019 @06:20AM (#19327191)
I personally love skate and I haven't seen many people protesting against it. Skateboarders use to be pretty nice, they move around in some areas that are used to them -or even prepared for them-, and also there are some other problems related to transport as the new scooters, the public spaces for bicycles, taxi vs uber, etc... that I feel more people are concerned about right now. It probably used to be a bigger thing, when the big crews of skaters started to come 10 years ago, but I never saw a neighborhood trying to kick them off! (which doesn't means that it never happened) What I saw it happened was the opposite, like in Nou Barris where the neighborhood maintained a DIY skatepark -that now is amazing, finally paid by the city hall- for 20 years and made it a symbol of social protest/resistance.
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Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by richthegeek on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @07:21AM (#19318325)
"very rude locals that refuse to speak in english" ... say that again, but slowly.

They are Spanish. They live in Spain. They speak either Spanish or Catalan and have no obligation to speak English to you. It's "very rude" of you to not try learn some basic Spanish.

I'm native English and live in Poland. My interactions with Poles (who mostly speak English and are happy to do try) are vastly different if they can see I am trying also: starting the conversation in Polish before transitioning to English is a much warmer experience than just starting with English from the beginning.

It's the same in Spain as well. Start with "hola" or "buenos dias" and then something like "podemos hablar Ingles?" or "perdon, no hablo Espanol" and suddenly 99% of these "very rude locals" will be incredibly friendly to you.

You don't need to, and most don't expect, that you can fluently speak to them in the local language. But they do expect that you respect them enough to try.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by okmokmz on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:48AM (#19320296)
This is a funny comment. It comes across like a satirical "typical privileged American" silicon valley-esque comment. Is Uber now somehow the mark of a progressive society? Most cities, particularly tourist destination, have old shops selling trinkets, antiques, and other items that can be a lot of fun. Many airbnbs are technically illegal and detrimental to the local community, so again, not sure how this demonstrates Barcelona being "extremely regressive" by fining them. Then the icing on top of the cake, you are upset that the locals refuse to speak in English... in their own country... where English isn't the native language. You sound exactly like the kind of tourist these people want to keep away
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by keiferski on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @06:59AM (#19318227)
I’m not quite sure that random tourists and Airbnb guests bring more value to a city than the actual people that have been living there for generations.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Tiktaalik on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @02:03PM (#19321590)
Many people don't have the privilege to travel at all, so there should be some benefits for locals.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by stronglikedan on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @04:39PM (#19323125)
Pedantic, but travelling is not a privilege (assuming, of course, that we're talking about most people from most countries). Some people don't have the resources to travel, but they are not otherwise prohibited from doing so.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @10:54AM (#19319811)
> I have been toying with the idea that travel is the ultimate expression of selfishness and narcissism.

travel isn't the problem. People experiencing their lives via the lens of their phone/camera is. Take pictures by all means. But taking pictures to get likes from strangers in order to experience it as a valuable memory is pathological.

Edit: I hate to bring my phone with me when in nature because I feel it robs me of the experience I could have actually enjoying the moment. My ex always complained "why you never take pictures of these special moments?" ... If I would have my eyes on the phone it wouldn't be special. 10 or 20 years later I still have rich memories of those times where it mattered and I guess not having a phone/camera with me at the time was big part that it actually became a great memory.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by afiori on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:19AM (#19320035)
> "why you never take pictures of these special moments?" ... If I would have my eyes on the phone it wouldn't be special. 10 or 20 years later I still have rich memories of those times where it mattered and I guess not having a phone/camera with me at the time was big part that it actually became a great memory.

For me it is in the other direction. I do not avoid social media (think I am on most on them...) but interact sparingly (less than once a month). Still I am sometimes an obsessive photographer exactly because I know I have a terrible memory.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by bmj on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:10AM (#19319965)
I reckon it's a bit of both. As the internet allows people to share information about "special places," more people will travel there. I see this all the time with rock climbing--areas get more publicity, and climbers flock there, and there are real impacts because of increased traffic. I guess that is tangentially related to more social media posts, but there are also just more people climbing now than there has been in the past.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ASpring on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:12AM (#19319982)
It's not just you, taking photos of something can impair your actual memory of the moment itself https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221136811...
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by DyslexicAtheist on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:43AM (#19320255)
thanks for that link!!
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by scoutt on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:37AM (#19320185)
Wife asks the same to me. I say her that she, and seems that also most people, don't go places with the primary objective of just visiting them. Their primary objective is to take pictures.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by prawn on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @06:49AM (#19318190)
Instagram is replacing the guide book. And because people are more digitally connected, a lot of their storytelling has become visual and so visually remarkable sights have grown in popularity. I can't see it going away anytime soon - my state tourism authority uses social media as a key tool in their efforts.

This weekend just been, I was flown to a location by said authority, given a car for four days and basically set loose to photograph whatever interested me. (I shoot with a drone.)

Anyway, at the first of the two fixed experiences of the weekend (an oyster farm), I was sitting near two girls who had driven 700km for a weekend in this location all because they'd seen a girl's photograph on Instagram, shared by the authority. Coincidentally, that girl was seated five metres from them and also in the area shooting for the tourism authority because of how powerful social is now. The authority chaperone was right there in the middle to witness the power of her daily work.

For anyone who cares, this is my work: https://www.instagram.com/__serio__/

This is the shot the girls had seen: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs2aWsbHxT0/

I imagine the average HN user imagines these "travel couples" to be particularly obnoxious and I'm sure some are (like any subset of people), but this couple were very genuine and great people. Like me, they get out there because one hobby is photography; just a bit different to that of the typical landscape photographer.

No where we shot that weekend was anywhere near crowded. I almost always had miles and miles of pristine beach to myself. At this location, there would've been no one on that beach for 3-5 km in either direction, just 15+ dolphins playing in the waves.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Buo4NcFDxU7/

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by Cederfjard on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @07:49AM (#19318474)
>No where we shot that weekend was anywhere near crowded. I almost always had miles and miles of pristine beach to myself. At this location, there would've been no one on that beach for 3-5 km in either direction, just 15+ dolphins playing in the waves.

Isn't this point a little disingenuous when you live in a country that's almost the size of USA or Europe, but only has 25 million inhabitants, and people from other countries have to travel far to get there?

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by prawn on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @08:59AM (#19318892)
It wasn't a point, more a clarification that this area is not quite on the same level of tourism as someone living with it in Western Europe, Thailand, etc. I was adding real world experience that it's not just social-media-is-the-new-guide-book, but that tourism authorities are actively pushing it too.

(Can't edit my earlier comment, but the italics were from an asterisk/footnote rather than intended emphasis.)

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by nitemice on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @07:54PM (#19324645)
Not really. There are plenty of areas of Australia that are thoroughly clogged with tourists, especially from Asia, which isn't so far to travel.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by extra88 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @07:57AM (#19318517)
> No where we shot that weekend was anywhere near crowded

Then the photography hasn't done its job yet. Will you like that beach more when it looks like this?

https://www.wonderslist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bondi...

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by prawn on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @09:18AM (#19319051)
Funnily enough the beach is called Avoid Bay. I had to track down that location via satellite maps and then walk 1km+ through scrub on kangaroo trails to get to the beach. Any 4WD evidence in the area looked to be very old and long-since blocked off. I'd guess maybe any other access had been by boat, but even then, most people would probably head to more accessible and just as attractive beaches instead.

Everyone has a right to experience it, and I had the same experience or close to it on countless beaches in that area. We'd need a lot more people visiting before it got to even a hundredth of Bondi.

Any touristed location will reach an equilibrium with its crowds. There's always an alternative for those not keen on the hordes. Go to Simitai instead of Badaling. The Louvre has countless alternatives to the Mona Lisa's room. The Grand Canyon has dozens of vantages. You don't have to walk far from the central area of Zion National Park to have expanses to yourself.

Some people take yet another photo of a popular attraction. Others visit an online discussion and throw another viewpoint into the maelstrom as though it achieves much of consequence. Each to their own.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by csomar on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @06:40AM (#19318143)
> I have been toying with the idea that travel is the ultimate expression of selfishness and narcissism.

As far as I understand, you don't own the place. From my perspective, you are more selfish than these people. You don't want people to access public property because it "inconveniences" you? Seriously, what is wrong with the world.

The reason people didn't visit your place before because internet didn't make it popular enough and transportation wasn't that good. The fact that you were there first or had memories of it being empty doesn't make you own it (and thank god for that).

ps: I used to live in a very nice part of the city. I ended up moving because the outsiders "wrecked" it. But it is fair. I only rented an apartment and the nearby small mountain and sea was public property.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ip26 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:08AM (#19319943)
The thought is more like, if everyone goes to the city park nearest them, each city park can bear the traffic. If everyone around the world visits just this one city park, it becomes unsustainable.

So nobody owns anything, or has exclusive right, but when each area is used mostly by the respective locals, it's more sustainable all the way around. That's the tension.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by tobtoh on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @10:34AM (#19319604)
To take a counter view, you could argue that not travelling is the ultimate expression of narcissism. An unwillingness to see beyond your own small environment, to expose yourself to different views/culture/people.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by lotsofpulp on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:00AM (#19319870)
A 5 to 10 day jaunt to other major cities or developed countries that you spend in a Hilton/Marriot/Hyatt, ride in Uber/Lyfts, and take selfies to put on instagram/snapchat all the while not speaking to anyone outside of the staff you communicate with at the hotel/restaurant is not exposing one's self to different views/culture/people.

And I think that's what the original commenter was alluding to.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by zinclozenge on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:11AM (#19319969)
The more I traveled and experienced other cultures, the more I realized people are the same everywhere.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:42PM (#19322546)
Sounds like it was worth it then!
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by _hardwaregeek on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:31AM (#19317265)
I think there's a distinction to be made between travel as accumulating social capital masquerading as "experiences" and travel as seeking genuinely novel experiences. It's the same difference between going to Instagrammable restaurants and seeking out places that have legitimately good food. Then again, I don't think this distinction is new. There's always been a dichotomy between people who travel like an RPG where they have to see X monument and have Y experience in order to tell their friends about it, and people who come in open minded.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by cm2187 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:44AM (#19317338)
Yes and no. Before instagram you had tourist guides (books). If a major guide mentions a location as lovely and must seen, you will have hordes of tourists raiding the area, often to just take a quick picture and mark a notch next to the entry.

Like I just don’t get people going to the Trevi fountain in Rome. The place is so crowded that all they get is pushing their way to a tight spot where they can see some of the horses, take the same picture than the first 1,000,000 results on google image and then push their way out. What’s the experience?

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dantheman on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:42AM (#19317895)
The choice is - don't see it or see it in a slightly less than optimal way. It's an amazing fountain, it's different than anything at home for many visitors, and it's super easy to get to.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by bsder on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:14AM (#19317777)
One could just as easily say this about the Sistine Chapel.

And yet most people who go there still regard the experience as profound.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @10:35AM (#19319613)
This is a false dichotomy. When I travel to new places, I like to see the standard tourist stuff, but I also like to walk the back alleys and go "off the beaten path". I'm not unique in this either.

The gatekeeping people have around the right kind of travel is amazing.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by oh_sigh on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @02:51AM (#19317093)
Hire 2 fat guys to stand around shirtless drinking beers to ruin the photos. Eventually the tourists will slow down.

Also, that place was not yours. Yeah, it sucks that you can't get 100% pleasure out of it because 1000 people are getting 5% of pleasure out of it...so maybe find a new spot? There isn't a shortage of wild places out there

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by throwmeback on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:04AM (#19317143)
>Hire 2 fat guys to stand around shirtless drinking beers to ruin the photos. Eventually the tourists will slow down.

I'll take a photo with them - it'd be 3 fat guys standing around shirtless drinking beers. :')

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by dagw on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @02:56AM (#19317111)
Eventually the tourists will slow down

Either that or getting your photo with shirtless fat guys becomes the new point of the exercise (with people getting more likes the fatter the guys).

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by cm2187 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:49AM (#19317358)
A european, gym-free version of the naked cowboy in NY.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by mc32 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @09:19AM (#19319058)
For local attractions like that what municipalities can do is set access for locals as free and access to out of town tourists at some price.

Foot traffic will degrade natural sites, with the fees they can better take care of these sites and ensure they don’t become overrun.

Bhutan has an interesting system for foreign tourists, they have a visa cap as well as a hefty visa fee. It’s one way to dampen demand to more sustainable levels.

Historically tourism has been very bourgeois, now it’s become ‘democratized’ bug that has untaxed externalities.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by speedplane on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @02:44AM (#19317067)
> just so that someone can have an ~experience~

What is life if not an accumulation of experience?

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by rland on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @02:56AM (#19317112)
Yes, I mean, that's almost my point. I think for a big portion of the people I see in that throng of 100, the experience of going someplace, joining the crowd, getting in line for the photo angle that trends best on Instagram, then packing up and going home -- is actually a pretty mediocre experience, not a beautiful one. They'd be better off enjoying a quiet moment in their front garden.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @05:50AM (#19317935)
That’s not really for you to say, is it? Even assuming they’d agree with your cynical characterization, which is doubtful.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by overthemoon on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @01:44PM (#19321403)
I'm really sympathetic to this, and I'll try to explain why:

It's not technically yours, sure, not in any sort of legal sense, but your cultural and historical connection to it is meaningful. Your SENSE of ownership over it wouldn't hold up in court, but that doesn't mean it's immaterial. It doesn't afford you the right to kick people out, but it does excuse some frustration over the crowd, and a sense that maybe they're not as entitled to it as the locals are.

No, no one can tell those people to leave. But I think tourists have a serious responsibility to consider how their presence impacts the area.

But there's a tension there, of course. It's selfish to hoard and hide things like this, and the world has a lot of wonderful things in it. But I think I'm more sympathetic to locals than I am tourists.

More broadly, the elevation of travel to a spiritual practice is a big time lie. I don't doubt it has some benefit but it's moral and spiritual inflation is similar to people's attitudes about aesthetic appreciation--you can be a shitbag and have good taste. You can be an utter bastard and be well-traveled.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by doctorRetro on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:16PM (#19322332)
> I have been toying with the idea that travel is the ultimate expression of selfishness and narcissism.

Really? Because although I may not have travelled much, I can't say it's ever been "about me". Quite the opposite. For me travelling is about where I'm going, what I'm experiencing, who I'm meeting. I think your applying your perception of a subset of travellers on the body at large.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ip26 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:27AM (#19320105)
One question I wonder that I don't quite know how to answer- perhaps the important part is how does tourism compare to the other hobbies people might engage in to fill their time. It's probably worse than intramural sports, but how does it compare to automobile racing or what have you. Or, how does modern tourism compare to tourism of ages past- is ten thousand people taking a photograph better or worse than a couple British guys shooting a lion?

You could also speculate about much harder to prove thesis. For example, if travel & "global citizenship" helps avoid a great war, that's quite a lot of damage & destruction averted.

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by malvosenior on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:47AM (#19320294)
From a carbon footprint standpoint, international travel is about as "bad" as you can get.

From a social media narcissism eating the world standpoint, it's also pretty bad to be spending thousands of dollars to travel somewhere just to shoot an instagram shot and hope for likes (imho).

Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ip26 on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @12:05PM (#19320536)
Cruise ships are worse than planes, although maybe that would also be considered international travel. There's a lot more focus on getting drunk on a boat though.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by zwkrt on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @11:54AM (#19320387)
I agree with you up to the point of claiming that having experiences is not a worthy reason to travel. The issue in this article is that people aren't attempting to 'experience' Rue Cremieux but instead to picture it and make it their own. The first is a complicated and respectful process whereas the second does not require understanding or compassion.
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by ciconia on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @08:38AM (#19318774)
I'm with you 100%. Try visiting the Mona Lisa at the Louvre. The room is packed and everyone's taking selfies with the painting as a background. It's beyond ridiculous...
Re:Paris's Rue Cremieux Has an Instagram Problem by yakshaving_jgt on Wednesday March 06, 2019 @03:35AM (#19317283)
Until you said "sunset", I was almost certain you were referring to Wedding Cake Rock, a similar victim of new-found Instagram popularity. That's in the town where I grew up, which is often ruined by tourists. I don't know what it is about group dynamics, but as I perceive it (and it may be confirmation bias), large groups of tourists do far more damage (especially littering) than if the same number of people had visited individually.