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Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by vinceguidry on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:16AM (#19224996)
This reminds me a bit of how mystics often claim to have seen colors not seen in nature. Crazy, weird, sure, but when you actually look at the rod and cone structure that gives rise to color, there's no reason to think that more of these might not exist, and indeed some animals have different receptors, famously, the mantis shrimp has 12. Color occupies that weird junction between the subjective and objective, so we don't really have a way of working out what the subjective experience of new colors would actually be.

Why this reminds me of color isn't so much the weird part, but the fact that color is a continuous surface. What would adding new colors do to the color space? Does the space remain two-dimensional or do new colors start blending a third dimension into the topology? I wish those mystics had access to spectrometers in Heaven.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by mattkrause on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:26AM (#19225551)
More critically, the mantis shrimp doesn’t have opponency.

In humans—-and most other animals—-the visual system represents color[0] using a relative system: is something redder than it is green? Bluer than it is yellow? To create this, neurons receive excitatory input from (e.g.) a red cone and inhibitory input from nearby green cones. This representation makes sense, given the cones’ spectral sensitivity, but it also makes some colors “impossible”. Since each color is essentially a point along these two axes, something can’t be blue and yellow at the same time, reddish green, or even some shades of “hyper-green”[1,2].

The mantis shrimp, near as we can tell, doesn’t have this sort of representation. The anatomical pathways don’t seem to be there, and some behavioral work with trained(!) mantis shrimp also suggests that they have independent color channels, and, as a result, their color sensitivity is actually not amazing. Interestingly, they may do something to “fake” color opponency: different receptor types are in different parts of the eye, and the shrimp ‘drags’ its eye across the scene to produce a sort of temporal context.

That’s more than you probably wanted to know but...shrimp are neat.

[0] To a first approximation, anyway.

[1] There is a place called Reddish Green, which I assume is not invisible, but I’ve never been to Stockport, England.

[2] More seriously, there are some tricks you can play to (briefly) perceive some of these impossible colors. The general approach is that you stare at something of one color, then quickly switch to looking at something of the opponent color. This “fatigues” (adapts) cells that signal the first color, so they provide less inhibitory input in response to the second color.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by hobs on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:51AM (#19225773)
A great talk about treating lazy eye with VR that discusses creating impossible colors by providing different inputs to different eyes (also just generally cool, discusses multiple methods to have the brain reset the disabling of one eye) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r1Tj5-F4XI&t=2875s
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by kakarot on Friday February 22, 2019 @12:09PM (#19226951)
Here is a blog post which covers some impossible colors and provides a few techniques to "see" them. [0] Of course reddish green and blueish yellow don't have any easy visualization techniques.

My personal favorite impossible color is Stygian Blue. Something is so energizing about seeing a color you know shouldn't exist.

[0] http://www.luniere.com/2014/03/01/hyperbolic-orange-and-the-...

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by FPGAhacker on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:48PM (#19231042)
I see reddish green all the time, although it could be greenish red. Just as often it’s brown.

I’m red-green colorblind.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by Forbo on Friday February 22, 2019 @01:02PM (#19227469)
I think you forgot your link.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by kakarot on Friday February 22, 2019 @01:22PM (#19227680)
Hasn't been a great start to the day. Thank you!
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by andyjohnson0 on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:26AM (#19226085)
I lived in Reddish for a while, about 25 years ago. I sometimes used to take a book and sit under the trees on Reddish Green to read. The grass was definitely just regular, visible, non-impossible-coloured grass :)

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4386822,-2.1639276,3a,62.9y,...

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by IIAOPSW on Friday February 22, 2019 @11:02AM (#19226390)
But how do I know you're possible-coloured?
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by tachyonbeam on Friday February 22, 2019 @03:50PM (#19228977)
Fun aside: your mention of the mantis shrimp led me to google image search them, and it turns out that they are very colorful creatures (http://caradonnajournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Peaco...). Their special visual system and bright colors are likely a result of sexual selection.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by feedbeef on Saturday February 23, 2019 @10:37PM (#19236967)
Mantis shrimp pack a really strong punch too. Truly fascinating creatures.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sheila_patek_clocks_the_fastest_an...

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by mattkrause on Sunday February 24, 2019 @05:03PM (#19240899)
Yup! They're one of the few animals that can see circularly-polarized light, and the quarter-wave retarders in their eyes are really damn good.

As of a few years ago, they had a much wider wavelength range (400-700 nm) than the best man-made ones, which were only achromatic over ~100 nm.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by arketyp on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:12AM (#19225437)
Some females (due to the XX chromosome setup) are born with red cone receptors that are sensitive to sufficiently different ranges in the wavelength spectrum that they are in effect tetrachromats. I particularly remember reading somewhere that when asked how they experienced the world they had reported to often notice bad color matchings in the way people dress, I suppose much like it can sometimes be apparent that someone is red-green color blind by this same dressing queue.

But a different kind of rod altogether, firing off some completely different signal, who knows what the experience would be like. Psychophysics is a mysterious junction indeed.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by groestl on Friday February 22, 2019 @02:11PM (#19228152)
There is a tetrachromatic painter who tries to visualize her experience for us common trichromatic people: https://concettaantico.com/oil-paintings/
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by poopchute on Friday February 22, 2019 @05:04PM (#19229546)
From what I understand, a tetrachromat has (and expresses) the normal green cone, normal red cone, normal blue cone, as well as the cone associated with either protanomaly or deuteranomaly. With that in mind, it seems reasonable that there could exist a pentachromat that expresses all of these cones.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by lostphilosopher on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:59AM (#19226371)
"It was octarine, the colour of magic. It was alive and glowing and vibrant and it was the undisputed pigment of the imagination, because wherever it appeared it was a sign that mere matter was a servant of the powers of the magical mind. It was enchantment itself. But Rincewind always thought it looked a sort of greenish-purple." - Terry Pratchett, _The Color of Magic_
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by pmjordan on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:44AM (#19225164)
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy#Humans

Although I have my doubts that this is what the mystics you're referring to are talking about.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by whatshisface on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:08AM (#19225388)
I believe that tetrachromats see the same colors as everyone else, just with higher resolution. This was, at least, the conclusion of the experiment in the linked article that identified a functional tetrachromat.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by smcameron on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:19AM (#19225489)
How do you even know that "everyone else" experiences colors the same as each other? How do you know for example that it is not the case that what I experience as "red" is what, if you experienced it the way I did, you would call "blue"? You can't really get inside another person's experience.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by will_brown on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:23AM (#19226061)
>How do you even know that "everyone else" experiences colors the same as each other?

Generally through measurement. Colors are just differences in electromagnetic wave frequency, change the electromagnetic wave frequency enough and you are out of “visual light rays” and into other types of rays (radio, gamma, x, etc...). Until people start “seeing” those other non visable light rays, we have some indication we are all seeing the same things (light waves).

As to the “colors” of the various frequencies within the visual light wave spectrum, we may receive/interpret them differently (ie color blindness), but the wave frequencies are the same and it is us who work differently.

That’s why we can have other objective factors and measurements (primary colors, mixing of colors, etc...) that suggest for the most part we are all seeing the visual light spectrum waves similarly. In otherwords if you and I saw the visual light wave differently it should be obviously once we start mixing colors to produce new colors (if you saw black and white where I saw blue and yellow, then you couldn’t see green - it would be black). Still your use of “experience” of colors likely is inheriently true we probably all do experience the colors differently (some are my favorites, those don’t need to be your favorites, some may trigger certain emotions in me and not in you) but that doesn’t change the fact that the electromagnetic wave is the same for both observers.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by jbay808 on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:23AM (#19226057)
A lot of people consider this to be an interesting question. I don't really. I think the prior of it is exceptionally low both because it's a less simple hypothesis than humans, constructed similarly, having similarly structured internal representations of the world; and because it seems plausible that some well-designed art or optical illusions would reveal such a difference if it weren't trivial.

But more importantly, I think it's like arguing whether all computers are big-endian, or whether some computers stores [R,G,B] values in memory as [G,B,R]. It's not actually mysterious.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by logfromblammo on Friday February 22, 2019 @11:00AM (#19226382)
Everyone experiences the same colors in the sense that sunlight has a particular emissions spectrum, Earth's atmosphere has a particular absorption spectrum and light-scattering property, and any given viewable object has measurable properties for diffuse reflection, specular reflection, and its own emissions spectrum.

If you point a measurement device at a particular point, you can get a histogram of light intensity over several frequency bands. A histogram with many narrow bands gives a more accurate profile of the measured light.

The human eye usually has only three frequency bands: blue, green, and red. They overlap. They are not always the same width, or centered on the same frequency. The width and center of the red bar is defined on the X chromosome, so some people with two X chromosomes from lineages that see red differently have a fourth histogram bar, and therefore have better ability to distinguish between similar color profiles at the red end of the visible spectrum. Some people with only one X chromosome have a defective copy of the gene encoding for the red histogram bar, and thus only have two bars in their histogram.

So while color is objectively the same, different eyes--connected to different visual cortexes--quantize and encode color information differently. Each brain may interpret the data in the color channels differently to establish an individual's world model.

What I see as "red" is unique to me. If someone were to bridge my brain to someone else's, my "red" would not match to someone else's "blue". My color channels would be as their octarine, smaudre, and refulgine--three completely different color channels that they have never experienced before. But if our optic nerves were linked, rather than somewhere deeper in the brain, I would see their red as my red, even if their eye reads reds slightly differently because of a minor difference in their X chromosomes. The translation layer between raw visual data and personal worldmodel is not guaranteed, or even likely, to produce similar results.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by pdonis on Friday February 22, 2019 @02:28PM (#19228325)
> How do you know for example that it is not the case that what I experience as "red" is what, if you experienced it the way I did, you would call "blue"?

Because the words "red" and "blue" can be calibrated by reference to external objects. You and I both call stop signs "red" and the sky on a clear sunny day "blue". So if, for example, somebody invented a device that could "translate" your experiences into my brain, and the device "translated" your experience of looking at a stop sign into something that my brain decoded as "blue", I wouldn't conclude that your experience of colors was different from mine: I would conclude that the translator device was broken.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by criley2 on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:31AM (#19225587)
I know that red is red the same way I know that hot is hot, that cold is cold, that pain is pain, that pleasure is pleasure, that loud is loud, etc.

Sure, you can be taught that when you hear a deafening sound to say "wow that's really soft" but that doesn't change the fact that it's a loud sound and you're experiencing a loud sound.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by SketchySeaBeast on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:44AM (#19225704)
I believe they are raising the point of qualia, or a viewers internal representation of the perception.

You know that red is red, but you don't know that your red is anyone else's - which may be why I like green and you like red, we may have two totally different experiences of the colours.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by supermw on Friday February 22, 2019 @11:06AM (#19226422)
This has always bothered me, I want everyone to see colors the same way so we can all have the same internal experience.

However, I have rationalized away this theory with a thought experiment. Imagine someone messed with your brain and remixed your colors. So now maybe what you once saw as red you now see as green. However, since your brain has no other reference, you will not even be aware this change has happened.

Now if we put a device in your brain that changes your colors every second or so, you still won’t even know. You’ll never know! Because you have no way to compare a previous representation with a new one.

Imagine looking out now into the world around you, and being told every second your colors are being rewired. Since you can only have one dictionary of colors in your mind, you see nothing change, because that would imply there is an even deeper meta-representation of colors you can compare with.

Ultimately, colors do not exist. This is why my favorite color is black, as it is the only “true” color, and not to mention everything looks good in black.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by tcmb on Friday February 22, 2019 @11:51AM (#19226793)
Don't you think there is a representation of color in memory, that you can compare current visual input to? I can close my eyes and recall the image of a red apple, or are you saying my memory of red would switch to green as well?
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by criley2 on Friday February 22, 2019 @05:15PM (#19229640)
"I believe they are raising the point of qualia, or a viewers internal representation of the perception"

So am I.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by zepolen on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:45AM (#19225711)
This doesn't happen for everyone

Some people lack nerve 'analyzers' and do not "feel" pain/heat/cold etc, just pressure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_insensitivity_to_pa...

Likewise some people lack emotional analyzers and do not "feel" emotions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorde...

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by sethammons on Friday February 22, 2019 @06:42PM (#19230259)
I recall similar thoughts when I was younger (10yo?). It led to "what if everyone's favorite color is the same color, but we all experience colors differently, so it only appears we have different favorite colors!?". That was quickly debunked by those who change their favorite color.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by carapace on Friday February 22, 2019 @02:07PM (#19228122)
I have a weird thing: out of one eye the world seems slightly redder while out of the other the world seems slightly bluer.

I don't think there's any way for me to tell which (if either!) is the more "correct" perception, eh?

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by ZeroFries on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:57AM (#19225830)
It's not clear what the relation between sensory input and the experience generated actually is. For a crude analogy, one might think the client sending a certain JSON structure is what leads to a certain database update, but the server can alter that structure in arbitrary ways. You can also get database updates without sending any JSON at all. We should be looking at the server, not the client, to figure out how the database updates work. Similarly, a brain can probably generate arbitrary experiences in qualia-space (although probably dependent on the neural structure to do so).
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by TaupeRanger on Friday February 22, 2019 @03:46PM (#19228944)
I think this is a point many people don't appreciate (or don't want to). The nature of "qualia space" or "experience space" is truly mysterious and we really have no clue what its nature is. We can draw increasingly precise correlations between brain states and reported experiences, but the question of why those correlations hold and how the two things interact is very puzzling.

What aspects of reality are off limits to us due to our limited space of possible experiences? A rat will never have the experience of understanding prime numbers. What are we missing?

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by c3534l on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:33PM (#19231423)
To the color thing, I've met more than one person who has taken LSD and seen new colors. Rational and level-headed people otherwise.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by mattigames on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:30AM (#19225069)
Every sensory perception is just as subjective, for example sound also "occupies that weird junction between the subjective and objective" in that is how animals interpret the vibration of airwaves despite being thousand of other possible ways to interpret such vibrations; same with touch, smell, etc.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by 0_gravitas on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:01AM (#19225309)
I've always akin-ed sensory perception to a language interpreted to bytecode for the animal's OS, were just running a bunch of different OSs so our resulting bytecode is going to be varied.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by vinceguidry on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:30AM (#19226118)
Base sensory perception is way more subjective than objective. Two people will simply taste differently, and there's only so much you can do to bring legibility and objectivity to the table. The surface area of the physicality with the brain is too large.

Color on the other hand is measurable and regular across humans to a far greater extent, such that we can measure with a fairly high degree of accuracy just how color-blind a person is. That's what's seductive about it.

You don't have that with other aspects of sensory perception.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by zepolen on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:38AM (#19225649)
Imagine you're looking at wall with 3 colored circles, red green blue - something happens and you can now see a fourth circle that wasn't there before.

You've experienced it already... by shining a black light on ultraviolet pigment.

It's the same principle behind color blind test patterns: https://cdna.allaboutvision.com/i/eye-exam-2017/color-blind-...

A color blind person sees one color - a normal vision person sees two.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by dooglius on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:28AM (#19225055)
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by JackFr on Friday February 22, 2019 @02:33PM (#19228367)
What makes it mystical is that there is color as a physical phenomenon (which relies on rods and cones etc.), and color as a subjective experience which occurs entirely in the thought space of consciousness. Typically the mapping between the two is relatively standard and static, but imagine a situation in which your consciousness registers something which has not correlate in the physical world. That doesn't make it any less real to your consciousness.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by BurningFrog on Friday February 22, 2019 @10:05PM (#19231329)
> This reminds me a bit of how mystics often claim to have seen colors not seen in nature.

There is infinitely more wavelength info even in the visible light of nature than the crude three dimensional mapping our eyes can present to our brains.

One simple example: We can't distinguish green light from mixed blue and yellow light.

So my point, which I know I'm annoying slow to get to, is that we're nowhere near seeing "the colors of nature".

For sound we do much better.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by wes-k on Friday February 22, 2019 @02:02PM (#19228072)
At a meditation retreat we did some form of “shanmukhi mudra” and I definitely saw some of the most intense colors of my life. I think the combination of sensory deprivation and pressure on the eyelids is what did the trick.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by wittenator on Friday February 22, 2019 @08:40AM (#19225135)
Just as a sidenote: In Computer Graphics (and according to Grassmann's law) colour is a three dimensional quantity.
Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by vinceguidry on Friday February 22, 2019 @09:45AM (#19225710)
I had to dive pretty deep into Wikipedia in order to figure out how that works. I originally wanted to separate out hue from saturation, but all that does is oversimplify color. Here's the page that finally gave me the epiphany:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

Scroll down a bit and look at the Notes section. Colors seem to have different shapes. Red occupies a corner of the cube. Cyan a whole edge. Trying to flatten the space by removing the lights and darks just doesn't work.

Color is weird.

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by rubatuga on Friday February 22, 2019 @01:29PM (#19227743)
CIELAB ColorSpace is a better representation:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIELAB_color_space

Re:Four new DNA letters double life’s alphabet by vinceguidry on Friday February 22, 2019 @04:26PM (#19229256)
You're definitely right about that, but projecting the color space onto a cube and then seeing how it distorts everything has a certain visceral feel, like looking at the Mercator projection and seeing huge Greenland and tiny South America. You know all map projections are wrong, but the Mercator is wrong in a way that lays map projection distortion completely bare.

Without seeing the cube viz in my link, I'm likely to look at CIELAB and say, "oh, sure, but you can just take out the brightness and then it's all flat again." The cube makes it clear what happens when you do that.