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Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by ChuckMcM on Friday February 15, 2019 @03:45PM (#19174542)
While I realize it was likely impractical to meltdown reactors just to develop the technology to clean them up, I find the process here pretty interesting. A lot of good engineering has gone into the effort, and the engineering challenges (and risks) of post runaway reactors has gotten a lot more data.

The Chernobyl folks just entombed everything, which is a one approach, even though they can "walk up to"[1] the remains of the nuclear fuel which they call the "elephant foot."

I also find it interesting that the "China Syndrome"[2] speculation is pretty much completely debunked. Molten/melted fuel diffuses into the material it is melting into until it loses criticality and then freezes where ever it is. All modern reactors have a borosilicate sand pile underneath the reactor. The boron acts as a neutron absorber (poison) which stops the chain reaction once the fuel has been glassified by the silicate.

[1] It is too radioactive for that to be literally true, but it is on a floor with direct access rather than being underwater and only accessible through cracks as the Fukishima fuel is.

[2] Speculation that a blob of melted core material would just keep melting into the ground until it "got to china" (which in fact would be interrupted by getting to the earths core).

[3] EDIT: Corrected for the effects of Boron on the reaction acting as a neutron poison (absorbs neutrons) rather than a moderator (which just bounces them around)

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pvaldes on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:05PM (#19174704)
> the "China Syndrome" speculation is pretty much completely debunked

You would be dissapointed. Cou-cou! surprise! The ocean strikes back!.

Unexpected source of Fukushima-derived radiocesium to the coastal ocean of Japan. 2017. Sanial, Buessler, Charette, and Nagao. PNAS. DOI:10.1073/pnas.1708659114

"Sanial, Buessler, Charette and Nagao, scientists from Massachusetts and Japan found a new source of Caesium-137 to the environment after the Fukushima accident. From 2013 – 2016 they visited 8 different beaches within 100 km of the accident site, took sand and water samples and measured its radioactivity.

They found that at the bottom of their sand samples, up to 2 m deep into the beach, the 137Cs concentrations were incredibly high, up to 480,000 Bq per square meter in their deepest samples. The soil in the restricted zone of the Fukushima site, up to 100 km away, measured ~100,000 Bq per square meter.

This means even tens of kilometers away, the radiation can actually be higher than near the disaster. (Because, huh?, 137Cs sticks to the sand grains).

https://oceanbites.org/going-nuclear-radioisotopes-from-fuku...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by ChuckMcM on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:46PM (#19175021)
That is a great paper[1], thanks for the reference I've added it to my nuclear effects library.

It doesn't involve the China Syndrome speculation though, what it does find is much much more interesting.

The paper reports that beach sand is capable of 99% adsorption of Cs137. And then goes on to discuss how it gets de-adsorbed (up to 11%) when Cs137 free sea water is mixed with it. What this says to me is that you can use really cheap beach sand to filter the discharge water from a nuclear reactor and collect 99% of the Cs137 in the water which will stick to the sand. The sand in your filter can be replaced and the cesium rich sand can be sequestered for the Cs137 to decay over time.

This is an excellent finding that suggests reactors have a reservoir of sand for pumping cooling water through especially during reactor compromise. Knowing this a future even would release significantly less Cs into the ocean, collecting it instead in the sand filter.

[1] The experiments showed that beach sands have an adequate ion exchange capacity for this level of 137Cs, with an average adsorption fraction of 99% regardless of the salinity, sediment grain size, or mineralogy (Table S3). ---https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/09/26/1708659114

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by tarre on Saturday February 16, 2019 @01:39AM (#19177416)
Decontamination factor of 100 is rather terrible compared to DF of over 8 million of actual filter materials, which are being used at Fukushima: https://www.fortum.com/sites/g/files/rkxjap146/files/documen...

See also: https://www.fortum.com/products-and-services/power-plant-ser...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by adrianN on Saturday February 16, 2019 @01:56AM (#19177467)
Adding another factor of 100 with something as cheap as sand still seems worthwhile.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by tarre on Saturday February 16, 2019 @02:50AM (#19177609)
There are reasons, why not to do that:

1) DF doesn't add up like that at low concentrations. Then it comes down to selectivity of the material. Sodium and cesium have similar chemical characteristics, but CsTreat is very efficient in selecting Cs over Na.

2) Material you are using as filter becomes radioactive waste. You want to keep the volume at minimum.

3) With CsTreat you already reach radioactive Cs levels below measurable limit. There is no reason to try to remove more Cs from that water :)

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pvaldes on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:15AM (#19178015)
Honest question. Is is being CsTreated since eight years, why we do have radioactive Caesium still accumulating in the coast?

> 2) Material you are using as filter becomes radioactive waste. You want to keep the volume at minimum.

This is very reasonable, but storing sand for 50 years somewhere is technically feasible and maybe even cheaper than storing water. You can put the sand in concrete and obtain a solid block. Then put the package in some kind of coating and bury it in a safe vault. Water instead has the bad habit to leak, run away, and enter in the life chain when bad weather, monsoon or accidents happen. A huge concrete block is also less vulnerable to terrorism than a water tank. Is not so easy to steal a jar of it, for example. Even if you could make a hole in the coating, the product will not just flow out.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by tarre on Saturday February 16, 2019 @08:09AM (#19178409)
>Is is being CsTreated since eight years, why we do have radioactive Caesium still accumulating in the coast?

As far as I know, this is because about 10 PBq of Cs-137 was released during the accident and the released material is transferred by ocean currents. CsTreat is being used for purification of the water, which is pumped into and out the containment to keep core remnants cool. Nowadays the releases are very limited if any.

>This is very reasonable, but storing sand for 50 years somewhere is technically feasible...

You're right. Also CsTreat is solid, rock/sand-like material. It can be stored as mixed into concrete and disposed as low/intermediate-level radioactive waste.

Now you probably want to ask: Why there is huge amounts of radioactive water stored at the plant site? Because of tritium, which is chemically equal to hydrogen and is very expensive to separate from water. Under normal operating licenses of NPPs, you could release such water into environment, but at Fukushima standards are nowadays peculiar.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pvaldes on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:13PM (#19175207)
> regardless of the salinity, sediment grain size, or mineralogy

Yes, I though also about it, but I will add something to the idea of a sand filter. This is not our average dead sand, is marine sand, cleaned and oxigenated constantly by the tides. If we discard an effect of grain size, and sand composition, the really interesting hot-stuff is IMHO probably in what remains, the bacterial biofilm coating the sand.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by firebones on Friday February 15, 2019 @10:49PM (#19176953)
What volume of sand would you need to make a difference? And at what rate does it collect Cs137 to reach 99%?

Would it be feasible to stack filters? (E.g., 0.01 * 0.01 * 0.01...)

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by aldoushuxley001 on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:46PM (#19175455)
What are you using to organize your nuclear effects library?
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by yongjik on Friday February 15, 2019 @07:54PM (#19176239)
For comparison:

According to Wikipedia, granite contains 1-20 ppm of uranium [1]. One gram of natural uranium is about 25,280 Bq. Hence, one ton of granite is somewhere between 25,280 - 505,600 Bq.

In other words, if a beach is made of eroded granite, its radioactivity will be between 25,000-500,000 Bq/t: assuming the sand is more than a feet deep, I think it's safe to assume > 25,000 Bq/m^2.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granite

> Some granites contain around 10 to 20 parts per million (ppm) of uranium. By contrast, more mafic rocks, such as tonalite, gabbro and diorite, have 1 to 5 ppm uranium, and limestones and sedimentary rocks usually have equally low amounts.

[2] http://www.wise-uranium.org/rup.html

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by wycx on Friday February 15, 2019 @11:46PM (#19177120)
Radioactivity of rocks is caused by only a few elements so is useful to consider the minerals in which those elements are hosted. i.e. the radioactivity is not evenly distributed among the minerals that comprise granite. The elements that contribute most to the radioactivity of granite are U, Th and K. The K is mostly contained in alkali feldspar and mica. The U and Th are contained in accessory minerals, such as monazite and zircon. Monazite and zircon are dense, robust minerals, which means they persist after weathering and go on to accumulate in detrital sediments, and we call the sediments in which they are concentrated heavy mineral sands. Alkali feldspar is much less robust and rarely survives in mature sediments (i.e. quartz-rich sands), instead all the K ends up in clays.

When heavy mineral sands are processed to extract the Ti and Zr ( from rutile, illmenite, zircon), the residual concentrate is rich in monazite. This material comprises the bulk of our easily accessible Th reserves. However, you can't just leave this monazite-rich material lying around heaps, as it creates a windborne radioactive dust hazard, so it gets mixed back in with the other light material. This is a bit of a shame. All that energy and effort is expended to extract the heavy minerals, but as there is no immediate market for the monazite, and it is a liability to keep it in the extracted state, all that work hard work is undone to mitigate the dust hazard and it gets mixed back with the quartz etc.

So it is perhaps somewhat ironic that we mine beaches to get the minerals that are the source of the bulk of the radioactivity of granites.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by blattimwind on Friday February 15, 2019 @09:42PM (#19176683)
> In other words, if a beach is made of eroded granite, its radioactivity will be between 25,000-500,000 Bq/t: assuming the sand is more than a feet deep, I think it's safe to assume > 25,000 Bq/m^2.

I don't think this computation is valid, because you have to consider what and how much radiation makes it out of the solid. So converting from activity per mass to activity per surface area cannot be done, I think, by simply assuming a given depth.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by Gibbon1 on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:00AM (#19177965)
Yeah this is just a version of the 'chest x-ray' fallacy/lie/propaganda.

You just simply cannot compare radiation hazzards based on gross disintegration's per second. Anyone doing that is either lying because they know better or ignorant.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by yongjik on Saturday February 16, 2019 @12:48PM (#19179807)
> You just simply cannot compare radiation hazzards based on gross disintegration's per second. Anyone doing that is either lying because they know better or ignorant.

You know, the really nice thing about this part of your statement is that there's no way to tell which side you're standing...

This whole thread started with Bq/m^2 (i.e., "gross disintegrations per second" per square meter), after all. Of course you can accept some numbers and reject others as invalid/irrelevant, but when your whole argument looks like "I reject this number because nuclear is dangerous", it starts to look awfully like circular reasoning, or propaganda, if you prefer.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by Gibbon1 on Saturday February 16, 2019 @03:33PM (#19180787)
> You know, the really nice thing about this part of your statement is that there's no way to tell which side you're standing...

Two points that inform my position. There is no civilian nuclear industry. Military and civilian are two sides to the same coin. Due to it's black budget military origin, that industry lies about risks out of habit. None of the public debate deals with the complex risks, dubious economics, and long tail waste issues.

I actually know almost nothing and I can see the public debate is just a bunch of deeply ignorant people spouting off. So my position, given the industry lies, the risks, and the existence of alternatives, the sooner we stop mucking around with radio-isotopes and sequester the stuff we've made the better.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by GordonS on Saturday February 16, 2019 @07:44AM (#19178350)
I live near Aberdeen, in Scotland, a city built largely of granite, and somewhat famous for having (relatively) high levels of background radiation as a result. Supposedly, background radiation levels are higher than they are in Fukushima!
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pvaldes on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:36PM (#19176426)
But sand is not normally made of eroded granite, or it does not contains only granite. A lot of sand is made of shells or coral. Most beaches should have much lower levels of radioactivity.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by Haga on Saturday February 16, 2019 @04:15AM (#19177863)
Behold the prolonger of discussion and destroyer of easy decideability : It deepends
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pvaldes on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:25AM (#19178044)
What I mean is that we can't just take the most radioactive beaches in the world and assume that this is the normal level in beaches so "is not so bad". In the real life, beaches aren't made (only) of granite dust. Most material is silicon, carbon and calcium.

And we should remember that unless x-chest rays, thousands of people lay practically naked in the same beach and favourite spots for entire weeks, ten hours a day. Being exposed to the UV rays of the sun also, that is another important source of cancer. In this cases, even relatively low dosis could be of concern.

People at the beach eats a lot of local sea foods also.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by godelski on Friday February 15, 2019 @06:47PM (#19175867)
> This means even tens of kilometers away, the radiation can actually be higher than near the disaster. (Because, huh?, 137Cs sticks to the sand grains).

Radiation is a funky and tricky topic and frequently results in confusing cases like this. Let me try to explain (trying to keep things simple, so there's more nuance than what I'm writing).

Bq is a measurement of activity. That means the number of decays per second. That actually doesn't tell you the strength of that decay, the particle type, or the effective dosage one would receive. BUT it is still an incredibly important number. It will give you an indication of the half-life of the material and how much there is. A high Bq suggests low half life while a low Bq means a long half-life. OR a high Bq can tell you that there's A LOT of a material. This should make logical sense because Bq is telling you how fast it is decaying, and the more of a material there is the longer it takes to decay. Frequently if a material is known people will refer to its Bq as a way to tell someone else how much of the material there is. (yes, this can get confusing and there are two things it can be used to tell you. You have to pay careful attention. Context matters. In our case of the link you provided it tells you how much of the material there is.)

You'll also see Sieverts[0] listed commonly. This is a SI unit that tells you the effective dosage (REM is the equivalent). That means it considers the weighting that happens because of different particle types as well as where it impacts the body (you're in more danger if you swallow radioactive material than if you touch it with your hand). Which is important for maps like this one [1]. This is easier to understand.

On the other hand, there is grays (rads) is pretty similar to Sv but does not include particle weighting. In fact Sv is derived from Grays. They call this absorbed dosage.

So knowing this you should be able to conclude that the most dangerous material is something that has a high activity and has a high particle weighting.

For some comparisons, 137Cs has a half life of 30 years and decays with a beta- of 0.5Mev and a gamma at 0.7MeV. 235U on the other hand has a half life of 730Myr and decays an alpha particle at 4.8MeV.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sievert (There's a break down and link to the other units discussed here at the bottom).

[1] https://jciv.iidj.net/map/

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by gus_massa on Friday February 15, 2019 @07:47PM (#19176205)
> the 137Cs concentrations were incredibly high, up to 480,000 Bq per square meter in their deepest samples.

But is that high? I don't know. Let's make some uninformed back of the envelope calculations. The energy of the Cs137 radiation is 662keV, let's assume a normal person with 100lb and a surface of 2m^2 (only half get the radiation). In a day this person will get https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=480000Bq%2Fm%5E2+*+662... 48uSv per day. [If I didn't make a huge mistake.]

It's like 5 times the normal background radiation, a little more than the radiation you get during a flight in a plane, less than the maximum permitted radiation dose for a worked in a nuclear plant (when there is not an emergency). https://xkcd.com/radiation/

I was expecting a much lower value, but this is still on the side of the safe level (if I didn't make a huge mistake).

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pvaldes on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:28PM (#19176395)
You are missing there an important factor: Life and dynamics of marine ecosystems. One of the problems is that 137Cs is being accumulated by sea currents, therefore even if we have a safe level in eight years, we could have, lets say, the "double" of the safe level in 16 years, rising to "four" times in the next 30 years (of expected half life of 137Cs). Minus the Cs released again to the water, but...

The other potentially big problem is that Caesium is bioaccumulative. Clams and other animals could take it from the water again.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by gus_massa on Friday February 15, 2019 @09:25PM (#19176620)
Good points. Bioaccumulation is a real problem. For example from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137#Radioactive_caesiu...

> In Scandinavia, some reindeer and sheep exceeded the Norwegian legal limit (3000 Bq/kg) 26 years after Chernobyl.

About the slow accumulation in the sand: If we make some simplifications and assume that without decay the flow rate is constant and the concentration increase linearly and in 32 years the concentration will be 5x the current amount. But when we add the decay the actual concentration will be only 2.5x the current amount.

(With a simple model like this using 30 years for the half life, I get the peak in the year 2043 with a concentration 2.4x of the current value.)

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by notablyconfused on Friday February 15, 2019 @06:36PM (#19175816)
> 100,000 Bq per square meter

What is the Sievert dose one receives from being permanently exposed to such radiation (ideally expressed as bananas eaten per time)? To the lay person such numbers are useless without some comparison.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by petschge on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:04PM (#19174697)
Boron actually mostly acts as a neutron poison, i.e. it absorbs neutrons. That way further (stimulated) decay of other nucleii that were hit by a neutron is eliminated and the chain reaction stops, reducing the production of thermal energy.

A moderator on the other hand inelastically scatters neutrons, converting some of the kinetic energy of the neutrons to heat and leaving a slower neutron. Moderators are used in reactors to bring neutrons down from their initial velocity to velocities where they are more likely to stimulate fission in another nucleus.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pfdietz on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:35PM (#19175364)
> A moderator on the other hand inelastically scatters neutrons,

Most moderators elastically scatter neutrons. What other kind of collision could there be with a hydrogen nucleus?

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by hexane360 on Saturday February 16, 2019 @03:15AM (#19177678)
When discussing scattering of particles, "elastic" usually refers to electrostatic slingshots where almost the entire kinetic energy of the particle is conserved. Inelastic, however, refers to a direct collision where there is a significant energy loss of the particle. Obviously the former doesn't happen with neutrons, but I believe it's still a typical convention in particle physics.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pfdietz on Saturday February 16, 2019 @08:53AM (#19178543)
No, elastic means an encounter where kinetic energy is conserved, rather than being converted to some other form of energy.

THe neutron/nucleus collisions in a moderator are largely elastic. The total kinetic energy of the neutron and the nucleus is conserved, although kinetic energy is transfered from the neutron to the nucleus.

An inelastic collision would involve (for example) nuclear excitation of the target nucleus, or ejection of particles from the target nucleus. The neutrons from fission are usually too low in energy for this to be very likely, though.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by petschge on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:38PM (#19175385)
You are of course right. The scattering conserved total energy, but not the energy of the neutron.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by ChuckMcM on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:27PM (#19174884)
Correction noted! Thanks!
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by transistor-man on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:55PM (#19175072)
@ Melting down fuel to determine its properties, the US just restarted a facility that does exactly that! The TREAT reactor purposely melts fuel to determine its failure points and to study new cladding materials.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_Reactor_Test_Facilit...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by ChuckMcM on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:38PM (#19175384)
Very cool with a link to a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0o4P_F4s9s where you can watch a fuel rod actually melt.

Glad to hear they restarted it last year for additional research into these topics.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by nate_meurer on Saturday February 16, 2019 @01:46AM (#19177434)
Holy shit, wikipedia says it handles transients of up to 19 GW. They don't say for how long, but the transient control rod actuators take a quarter second to cover their full range, so I'm guessing that means 19 GW for up to a quarter second. That's about 4.5 gigajoules. As it happens, that's roughly the explosive energy of 1 ton of TNT. From a reactor core the size of a small closet. Makes me wonder, in fascinated terror, what power output we're seeing in that video.

Wikipedia says it can simulate six different reactor loop types. This is a seriously impressive facility.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by m_mueller on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:33PM (#19174940)
Obviously it couldn’t melt through to China but AFAIK the way Czernobyl played out was that they had to somehow stop it from melting down to a flooded basement due to the fear of a long lasting series of hydrogen explosions that could have been truly disastrous for the region, if not Europe. Thus I think that the true worst case has so far never happened: A reactor without any of the modern safeguards (such as boronic sand pits) melting down to groundwater. Though, I guess subcritical core melts would not lead to hydrogen explosions, rather the creation of a lot of steam - it would be interesting to know how likely such a worst case would be and whether any of the world‘s reactors are configured to make this possible. Incredibly, 10 Chernobyl-type RBMK reactors are still in service.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by eXpl0it3r on Friday February 15, 2019 @06:23PM (#19175715)
The sad part is that the whole anti-nuclear politics often prevent building new and way safer reactors, yet they also don't manage to force shutdown all the dangers ones.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by afterburner on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:54PM (#19176484)
Building new reactors costs a massive amount of money, more than pro-nuclear advocates realize or are willing to admit.

Shutting down reactors doesn't save much money; they've already been built. They also weren't built when renewable energy was developed into the very cost-effective solution it is today.

The worst thing about building new reactors using existing technology (which would really no better than the existing ones) is the waste of money compared to alternatives, AND you get all the risk on top of that. Delicious government-subsidized risk.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by kortilla on Saturday February 16, 2019 @04:02AM (#19177828)
>Building new reactors costs a massive amount of money, more than pro-nuclear advocates realize or are willing to admit.

Those costs are entirely political. Fear mongers have made it extremely difficult to get a nuclear project to completion (see the whole NRC approval process). Solar panels would be super expensive as well if each one had to go through a giant 30 year planning process that NIMBYs could easily disrupt.

>They also weren't built when renewable energy was developed into the very cost-effective solution it is today.

Renewable isn’t cost effective. That’s a lie told to placate people. In reality, renewable currently has no feasible way to replace enough fossil fuels to matter for global warming. Energy storage solutions to bring it into candidacy for base load are so far off the mark that they aren’t even deployed.

Until we have a storage solution that doesn’t 10x+ the cost of renewables, which there is no promise of, we are signing up wholeheartedly for fossil fuels as our electricity backbone (and that doesn’t even address transportation energy where the picture is even more bleak).

Reminder for anyone thinking renewables are so cost effective, here is the energy source breakdown in the US: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/images/charts/consumptio...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by pfdietz on Saturday February 16, 2019 @09:05AM (#19178586)
> Those costs are entirely political.

This is simply not true. There has been tremendous ongoing incompetence and mismanagement in the reactor construction process in recent years. You may blame regulation -- that's the goto excuse for pronuclear people to avoid coming to unpleasant conclusions -- but the problem is that reactors are complicated things, and reactors with safety systems are even more complicated things (and reactors without regulation are complicated things that will almost certainly fail in unpleasant ways.) Building complicated things is hard, especially if all the institutional knowledge of how to do it, and the supply chains for the parts, have decayed away.

The huge advantage solar/wind have is they are simple and scalable. Installations consist of thousands, or even millions, of replicated parts. Experience builds up rapidly as the same damned thing is built and installed over and over. Nuclear doesn't have that.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by javagram on Saturday February 16, 2019 @10:30AM (#19178988)
> Experience builds up rapidly as the same damned thing is built and installed over and over. Nuclear doesn't have that.

Do you think this is the reason the US Navy doesn’t seem to have major problems getting nuclear power plants built and installed in submarines and aircraft carriers? It’s interesting how civilian power companies have had a bunch of high profile failures in this area but as far as I can tell new warships still seem to be able to get reactors fine.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by afterburner on Monday February 18, 2019 @07:38PM (#19195794)
What's the power output of those I imagine much smaller reactors, compared to ones meant to power entire regions and millions of consumers? What did they cost to build? What risks are there, compared to regular reactors?
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by javagram on Sunday February 24, 2019 @10:18AM (#19238846)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Naval_...

The A1B being installed on the newest carriers is a 700 MW unit being installed in a pair, so 1.4 GW total. That number seems comparable to a lot of commercial power generation, e.g. Vermont Yankee is a 620 MW plant.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by lostlogin on Saturday February 16, 2019 @04:16PM (#19180986)
Yes. There is a book by Serhii Plonkhy called ‘Chrrnobyl’. The lasting impression I have is that every single stage of management, design and construction was broken. One chapter alone makes the whole great book worthwhile - describing the Russian presentation at the European conference in Switzerland after the disaster.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by chillydawg on Saturday February 16, 2019 @05:51AM (#19178091)
Well it's certainly not feasible in the US with the current government in power.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by afterburner on Saturday February 16, 2019 @01:33PM (#19180111)
That energy breakdown pic doesn't say anything about the cost effectiveness of any of the sources, it's just a breakdown of current use. Nice try, pro-nuclear activist.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by Krasnol on Saturday February 16, 2019 @08:59AM (#19178568)
There is nothing sad about it.

It's about time. Especially in countries that do not posses any reasonable ways of discarding the produced waste as well as countries that have other capabilities to generate power.

This tech IS dangerous. There WAS fallout and you can still find 9000Bq wild animals in the middle of Europe. Not even mentioning the cancer rates all over East Europe here.

So please spare us this overhyped new rush for nuclear.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by merb on Sunday February 17, 2019 @08:05AM (#19184268)
> new and way safer reactors

actually the problem was never the reactor itself. chernobyl never failed because the reactor was totally unsafe. It wasn't the newest, but humans could've prevented anything. fukushima wasn't the unsafest reactor as well. however it got hit by a wave it couldn't stand and after that humans missmanaged everything to safely shut it off.

do you see a common denominator? the problem is that money is always involved even when you can build these things for cheap, however money and humans will make reactors unsafe, not the design of the reactor. at some point somebody wants to save money and most often this money saving practice will then be extremly disastorous.

I'm not saying that nuclear is bad per se, of course the waste is bad, but is it worse than coal? I'm not sure. however as long as humans control or have control over these things they will always be unsafe in a certain way.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by eXpl0it3r on Sunday February 17, 2019 @03:22PM (#19186634)
That's somewhat my point as well. There's no perfect world, there will be human errors and there will be natural disasters, but the point with newer reactor designs, is that they have design decisions in them that account for such issues, we have learned from the past, so that even a meltdown can be contained relatively well.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by merb on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @03:51AM (#19197563)
well depends, even the safest system can have a bug. especially the more complex a system gets. I mean look at all the software bugs. I wouldn't count on human technology on catastrophic failures and sadly most humans make errors in situations that we can't control.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by petschge on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:36PM (#19174958)
Part of that problem is that water is actually a decent moderator and neutron reflector, so it helps a lot in keeping a chain reaction with lots of energy output going. Some of the energy also goes into splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen can then collect in some corner of the building until it reaches an concentration where it explodes rather easily. The explosion can then damage the building, ruining containment and scatter radioactive material around. Moral of the story? Keep your box of boronic sand nice and dry.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by logifail on Saturday February 16, 2019 @04:29AM (#19177891)
> Moral of the story? Keep your box of boronic sand nice and dry.

See also:

"For every three units of energy produced by the reactor core of a U.S. nuclear power plants, two units are discharged to the environment as waste heat. Nuclear plants are built on the shores of lakes, rivers, and oceans because these bodies provide the large quantities of cooling water needed to handle the waste heat discharge."[0]

[0] https://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear_power_technolog...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by londons_explore on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:48AM (#19189604)
Pretty much every energy source has a lot of waste heat produced.

Solar panels get hot, gas turbines have hot exhausts, coal plants have cooling towers etc.

They all approximate a heat engine, and they must theoretically give off heat to the cold reservoir

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by logifail on Monday February 18, 2019 @08:30AM (#19190464)
> They all approximate a heat engine

For each of those energy sources mentioned, what would happen if the generating station were to be completely inundated with water?

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by howard941 on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:31PM (#19175335)
Are there lessons we can take away from further studies on the ancient reactor at Oklo? (see https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-nuclear-r... for ex)
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by SampleBourgeois on Saturday February 16, 2019 @12:43PM (#19179776)
I believe the 'chernobyl nearly caused a series of hydrogen explosions' hypothesis is not true. I will find the links I have on this subject, later.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by afterburner on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:54PM (#19176488)
Contaminating the groundwater is also a risk.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by anigbrowl on Friday February 15, 2019 @07:39PM (#19176153)
I also find it interesting that the "China Syndrome"[2] speculation is pretty much completely debunked.

That term was never meant to be taken literally, in the movie where it originates it is presented as a fanciful exaggeration meant to emphasize the seriousness of the risk. The actual plot concerns the risk of groundwater contamination following a nuclear accident, not a planet-piercing tunnel.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by GordonS on Saturday February 16, 2019 @07:47AM (#19178357)
> That term was never meant to be taken literally

As a kid growing up in the 80's, I remember people, even school teachers, did take that term literally!

It was one of those things I kind of forgot about for years and took for granted as being "truth", until I actually read about nuclear power!

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by jobigoud on Saturday February 16, 2019 @02:20AM (#19177530)
But is there a material that humans could build that would sink into Earth like that, for a few kilometers say, either due to melting its way down or gravity or density?
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by anigbrowl on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:45PM (#19203666)
I really don't know. I've never thought of it as anything other than a colorful metaphor and don't know enough physics or chemistry to speculate.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by robotresearcher on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:43PM (#19176447)
> [1] It is too radioactive for that to be literally true

They walked up to it anyway

https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/the-elephant-foot-of-the-ch...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by Aeolun on Saturday February 16, 2019 @01:59AM (#19177475)
I think a few years ago, when all their robots kept dying, I suggested just using a big stick, possibly with mirrors, to look inside.

Funny to see that after years they finally reach the fuel with a big stick :P

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by randomsearch on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:17PM (#19176347)
> realize it was likely impractical to meltdown reactors just to develop the technology to clean them up

That's a great insight.

Maybe if some technologist approaches you and says "this is a great tech but we can't possibly recreate the worst case scenario, even in an expensive simulation" then that tells you that this is a straight "no".

Fukushima is evidence that the worst case cannot be sufficiently modelled and mitigated, at least in a commercial market.

Not saying "don't build nuclear", just that pro-nuclear lobbies should have been able to predict this situation (with a small chance of occurrence) and model it. If not, don't build. If you can predict it, but govt doesn't care about the risks, publicly document it, and that's OK.

OT, but at this point the nuclear debate looks irrelevant - direction of travel is that renewables win.

[ further OT ...moment of wild speculation: the idea that energy will be scarce will, within the 21st century, become as crazy as the idea that food could be scarce in rich nations right now. The race to renewables will look irrelevant as solar costs hit rock bottom, and no-one will remember why coal/nuclear plants were ever a thing. Within our lifetimes. I genuinely think that scenario is more likely than not. ]

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by AngryData on Friday February 15, 2019 @09:04PM (#19176536)
I don't entirely agree with you, based mainly on when these reactors were originally designed. They started building in '67, but the actual construction designs were based on even earlier plans and tests that were conceived of in the 50s. So the original designs of the plant were born only around 15-20 years after we even invented nuclear technology. I find it similar to discussing automobile safety based on a Model-T.

Sure they have upgraded some things over the years, but there are only so much you can do when your modifications are done after it was already built or even in the middle of being built. I just don't see how we can really compare nuclear technology of the 60s, with nuclear technology of the 2019.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by aaronmdjones on Friday February 15, 2019 @11:37PM (#19177096)
The Fukushima situation was predicted, several times, and TEPCO were warned about the dangers of having basement emergency generators at least 6 times. Nothing happened, because fixing that would cost money. The sea wall was artificially lowered from 30 metres to 10 metres, because keeping it at 30 during construction would have cost more money.

At the end of the day it's money.

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by underwater on Saturday February 16, 2019 @04:18AM (#19177874)
And people. Neither of which new plant designs will address.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by dralley on Friday February 15, 2019 @11:18PM (#19177038)
The Chernobyl reactors were built after Fukushima. It was a really, really old plant, that had already gone 10 years past it's intended lifespan, but they kept it open despite that because they didn't have a viable replacement source of energy.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by cpeterso on Friday February 15, 2019 @03:54PM (#19174623)
> melted core material would just keep melting into the ground until it "got to china"

aka "China Syndrome", just like the 1979 film:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown#China_syndrom...

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by __m on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:42PM (#19174996)
Now that convincingly debunks the China syndrome, China is obviously not the antipode to Fukushima
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by darkpuma on Friday February 15, 2019 @05:22PM (#19175273)
Could crushed borosilicate glass be used as concrete aggregate when constructing containment buildings?

Edit: apparently yes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28189090

Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by srcmap on Friday February 15, 2019 @04:54PM (#19175063)
About the engineering challenges : I love to know the camera, sensors, electronic that let them take that picture in such high radioactive environment.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by cladari on Saturday February 16, 2019 @11:15AM (#19179261)
In a pressurized water reactor the water is the moderator (bounces and slows the neutrons) and dissolved boron is the poison used to control the reaction.
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by k4l3 on Friday February 15, 2019 @07:44PM (#19176188)
I agree with your assessment that it's impractical to meltdown reactors just to learn how to clean them up, but apparently the US government didn't: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BORAX_experiments
Re:First contact made with melted nuclear fuel at Fukushima ... by ww520 on Friday February 15, 2019 @08:40PM (#19176438)
> [2] Speculation that a blob of melted core material would just keep melting into the ground until it "got to china"

Are people seriously considered that's a possibility? Even if the melted core went through the earth unstopped, a little bit of physic would conclude that Earth's gravity would pull the melted core toward the Earth's Core, and passing that, it would just be pulled back in the opposite direction, oscillating back and forth until stopping at the Core.