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Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by downrightmike on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @01:56PM (#19098398)
"Let the kids leave sophomore year, or even earlier. Let them go to trade schools." Germany does this.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by citilife on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:21PM (#19099434)
The U.S. has this, many Highschools have trade programs. You're still "technically" in school you spend your Junior and Senior year at a trade school and often working / making money.

Unfortunately, this is only true for places with trade schools nearby. I grew up outside of Chicago and every school had this option.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by sn41 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @09:22PM (#19102382)
I think this is one of the reasons why people in Germany are so highly technically skilled. In India where I live (this is the same pretty much in all of Asia - r.g. China, S. Korea, Japan) students have to go through nightmarish entrance exams at the age of 17. I've often felt that students here don't have a feel for science, for us it's been just another hurdle to cross with 100 percent marks. This sense of enforced labor persists long into adulthood, and you lose a sense of enjoyment.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by walshemj on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:43PM (#19099675)
And that mostly locks you into a certain constrained career path.

Having being shoved down that path in the UK due to dyslexia it does have its downside lots of bright kids where sent to secondary modern schools and left at 16 to work down the pits etc.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by frosted-flakes on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @11:00PM (#19102890)
I agree with you. It's tough for many kids to figure out where they fit in in life, and I don't think setting that fork in the road too early is necessarily a good idea. Rather, I think it would be better to expose kids to what careers exist so they are able to make that decision when the time comes.

Myself, I left high school with high marks but no direction. I went to university for computer science the next fall, not because I knew that CS was for me, but because my brother went through the same program and I didn't know what else to do. That only lasted one semester, but six years on, after working various jobs and getting a college diploma in Graphic Design, I've landed on web design and development as a career. I had no idea this kind of work existed when I was in high school.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @02:17PM (#19098680)
I think Norway has a similar program. 16 year olds go to school - it can be trade school or continuing education for university prep (or both, depending). It also isn't mandatory, even though most folks go.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by hinkley on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:12PM (#19100016)
Can we just go ahead and split computer programming into vocational and science-based tracks while we're at it?

There are a lot of people who can or could stitch together existing libraries to accomplish results. There are a lot fewer people (than are currently participating) who have any business writing those libraries in the first place.

My hope is that if we just acknowledged the difference in these two problem domains we might get more quality over quantity in the places where it really matters.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by dagw on Thursday February 07, 2019 @04:26AM (#19104062)
Sweden does this. You can either go to university and get a Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree in 3-5 years or go to vocational school and get a programming diploma in 1-2 years.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by baroffoos on Thursday February 07, 2019 @12:30AM (#19103231)
We already do. Its called junior web development. Which most of the time just involves installing wordpress plugins.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by stereographic on Thursday February 07, 2019 @08:45AM (#19105126)
The college I went to in Eastern Canada does this, I'm employed after a two year diploma based program, rather than a 4 year CS degree
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by Thlom on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:20PM (#19099425)
Yes. Unfortunately trade school looks more and more like regular high school these days and apprenticeships in many trades is I low supply. :-(
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by hinkley on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:15PM (#19100046)
Do you think there's a way we could run apprenticeships that makes them more attractive to adults seeking to retrain?

I wonder sometimes how much of the problem with switching careers comes down to the usual scapegoat - lack of humility - and how much of it comes instead from infantilizing the students.

If we're going to keep moving the workforce around every 15 years then we need a way for someone^W most people to comfortably have 3-4 fairly distinct careers in their lifetime.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by hajile on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:52AM (#19143395)
Worked construction when I was younger. If you're in the electrical Union, you'll easily make 60k per year (even in southern States where average family incomes are often under 40k). After a few years, making over 100k is very possible. In addition, the benefits and retirement are very good.

But you'll be putting in 50-60 hour weeks in the cold and heat. On the bright side, the work isn't as physically demanding as some other jobs.

I've pitched the idea to a bunch of friends who seem to have an aptitude. They'd all rather with as delivery boys, waiters, or whatever low end job. They don't want a "dirty job". They want to hold out for an easy money desk job. Screw working in the cold, I'll just stick with my $7.25/he job.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by glial on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @08:44PM (#19102183)
Australia does this too, at least in the ACT. It’s fantastic.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by 2019ideas on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:26PM (#19099488)
Looking back at my education,

Precalc and English were me 2 most useful classes.

"Science" "engineering" and "history" were actually useless. If you were going to get further education, college science eclipses HS science in 1 semester. My Engineering class was the most absurd, it wasn't engineering. History was basically propaganda.

High school needs to end sooner. AP classes are the sign of this.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by Verdex on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @03:36PM (#19099611)
For a long time I have had the opinion that science classes are really history classes and not conducive to actually performing science, unless the students are really paying attention AND highly motivated.

Here is a thing someone discovered at one point in time. Here is the conclusion. Now do this experiment. You didn't get the right answer? Do it again until you do. Or make up an answer that you think is right enough that you'll get credit. Sure, some people probably figure out what you're supposed to be learning, but I suspect most people just figure out that you should listen to authority and parrot what they expect you to say.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by hinkley on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:08PM (#19099964)
I was in the circle of friends that contained our high school valedictorian. She gave her real commencement speech in the lunch room, to us, because she wanted to say things fairly close to what you just did, and the school wasn't having it.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by irrational on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:31PM (#19100206)
The problem is, you have no idea what you will pursue after HS. I didn't have any interest in history in HS. I ended up getting a BA in history in college because I fell in love with it. I never would have guessed I'd end up there while in HS, but in retrospect I'm grateful for the history classes I had to take.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by dorchadas on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:40PM (#19100313)
Yep! I changed my major three (or was it four?) times, and my minor countless others. I wanted to learn it all, and, 5 years later still don't really know what I'm super interested in and want to do as a career (actually, I do, but I don't want to enter academia with its current model).
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by wwweston on Thursday February 07, 2019 @12:01AM (#19103123)
Which suggests that college is a better place to suss out an academic field you love or value than high school.

(I take the point, though -- I briefly taught HS math and one of my responses to the perennial "when are we going to use this" question was "most of you have no idea all the things you'll need or want to do yet, and we want to open doors for you.")

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by 2019ideas on Thursday February 07, 2019 @08:53AM (#19105178)
> I didn't have any interest in history in HS.

I blame your teachers.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by wkearney99 on Friday February 08, 2019 @09:21AM (#19114309)
Well, parents certainly come in ahead of teachers for failing to encourage interest in history. It's not just teachers that have to magically light the spark.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by saalweachter on Friday February 08, 2019 @12:08PM (#19116293)
My message to my younger self re: high school would be to ignore all of the "advanced"/"college-track" classes and take all of the shop, welding, automotive repair, and drafting classes.

There's a host of skills I'd love to have now, don't have the time/energy to learn now, and could have acquired very easily in my rural high school, instead of taking a calculus class I'd already learned on my own the year before, because it was the highest-level math class offered and the one that all the "smart" people were taking.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by danbolt on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:25PM (#19100154)
What do you feel made your history course propaganda?

Looking back at my Canadian (BC) high school history curriculum, it was well-sourced and written, but I think it could have been structured in such a way to encourage youth to understand modern politics better.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by dagw on Thursday February 07, 2019 @04:21AM (#19104043)
The curriculum doesn't have to be a problem, if the teacher wants to bias the lesson. For example looking back at it my history teacher, whom on the whole was one of my favorite teachers, was super pro-Israel. However I didn't realize this until years later and as result I was probably in my mid 20s before I started to get even a slightly nuanced picture of the whole situation in the Middle East.

Now there was nothing in the curriculum that said "Students must learn that Israel can do no wrong" it was just the way he chose to bias his presentation.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by soperj on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @04:32PM (#19100215)
Where did you go to school? Mine (Victoria - Social Studies) was a joke. Literally the same Canadian history lessons over and over, they didn't even get into anything recent, nothing past the second world war.
Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by danbolt on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @06:59PM (#19101526)
Victoria as well!

I agree that the Canadian history post-1945 wasn’t emphasized enough; it should have been the center-focus. I had a good teacher in the eleventh grade that vocationally extended the curriculum to include things like economic and social issues, but they were a rare one. Honestly, if they spent as much time on The Quiet Revolution or Western Alienation as WWI, I think young British Columbians would be much better off.

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by stereographic on Thursday February 07, 2019 @08:31AM (#19105056)
In Nova Scotia, surprisingly our Canadian History classes did focus mainly on post-1945 Canada in the later years of our education (Highschool).

Pre-highschool Canadian history was extensively focused on pre-1945 events and pretty focused around Eastern/Acadian history

Re:America Lets Too Much Young Talent Go to Waste by soperj on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @08:38PM (#19102149)
I definitely don't blame my gr.11 teacher, he was an awesome, abet very strange dude. I don't know when you graded, but the curriculum that I had was bad. At least they could have gone into what the BNA acts meant.