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Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @08:54PM (#19041566)
They should also work on a visa system for seasonal (low-skill) workers and enforce e-verify so that people don't skirt the system willy-nilly.

We need foreign low skilled workers and they want to work, but we need to regulate that workforce so they don't undercut our native low-skills workforce by being unregulated and overwhelming the workforce with cheap unregulated labor.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by justinhj on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:36PM (#19041809)
I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. Why is there a shortage of low skilled workers in a country of 400m? Because you have illegal workers who’ve driven the price of that work below what the market legally supports. If the law was effectively enforced those low skilled jobs would pay enough for Americans
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by skybrian on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:46PM (#19041859)
Vegetable and dairy farmers would go out of business, if prices can't be raised due to competition from imports. You'd need tariffs as well, and people would need to put up with significant price increases at the grocery store.

There are not many Americans who want their kids to grow up to be farmhands or migrant workers. If you can speak English, you're better off in retail. For immigrants, there is a valuable benefit that makes it all worth it: being able to live in the US. Without that incentive, it's going to be really tough.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:55PM (#19041889)
Lots of countries contend with this: Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Britain, etc. People adapt. Perhaps we grow to appreciate our food and throw out less waste.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by Qworg on Thursday January 31, 2019 @12:42AM (#19042649)
Even at wages closing in on 3x minimum wage, we cannot get enough farm labor[1] - obviously low skilled American labor still doesn't want the job. What's the solution?

[1] https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by lorenzhs on Thursday January 31, 2019 @04:50AM (#19043655)
Because farm work isn't really low skilled. Sarah Taber did an excellent Twitter thread on this: https://twitter.com/sarahtaber_bww/status/107598191085642547...
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by Qworg on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:48AM (#19045553)
I agree, but they can't even get unskilled labor into the pool at that price.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by rhexs on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:09AM (#19042774)
Pay more, else go out of business. Why do I, the American taxpayer, need to subsidize already heavily subsidized farmers?
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by adrianN on Thursday January 31, 2019 @09:12AM (#19044771)
The ability to grow food in the country has pretty high strategic value. If you let your farmers go out of business your country loses domain knowledge in farming.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by Qworg on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:27AM (#19042854)
How are you subsidizing them? You're getting cheap food - truck crop farming is notoriously low margin. Are you prepared for $15/pint strawberries?
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @08:39AM (#19044590)
Strawberry pints from farms which do not utilize unregulated workers come in typically at about $6 to $7 pint. They’re typically smaller scale, so large scale can have them at retail for around $5. If that helps all of us, the farmer the temporary worker and consumers, I don’t see a problem with it. Strawberries and such aren’t staples like wheat and rice (highly mechanized and automated).
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by dragonwriter on Thursday January 31, 2019 @08:42AM (#19044609)
> Strawberry pints from farms which do not utilize unregulated workers

There is no such thing as “unregulated workers”, just employers that don't obey the regulations applicable to their workers.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by Qworg on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:49AM (#19045567)
How do you know that they're not using undocumented people? That also says nothing of the price increase as the pool of documented farm labor dries up.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by rswail on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:45AM (#19043169)
As an Australian, this is funny. Your Dept of Agriculture is one of the most socialist "redistributors of wealth" in the world.

Annual subsidies to US farmers is of the order of $25B+ per year. This includes non-tariff barriers such as price supports for sugar, import barriers and quotas such as on lamb and beef, export supports, crop insurance and other benefits.

The DoA has been doing this for 75+ years and the majority of farms are now corporate-owned. The majority of these taxpayer subsidies are directed straight into the hands of corporate shareholders.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by dragonwriter on Thursday January 31, 2019 @08:44AM (#19044618)
> Your Dept of Agriculture is one of the most socialist "redistributors of wealth" in the world.

Redistribution from the many to the wealthy few isn't socialist redistribution.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by oblio on Thursday January 31, 2019 @05:29AM (#19043793)
Those countries import a ton of food...
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by jorblumesea on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:28PM (#19042335)
Nah, there are plenty of countries that operate fine without cheap imported labor. They just need to...you know...pay fair wages. Which apparently has everyone up in arms I guess?

It's really just about the bottom line. Exploiting people is cheap. Paying or treating people properly is expensive. That's it. Tim Cook or your California farmer don't give a flying fuck about these people.

It's just about the $$$. Immigrants work hard for cheap.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mywittyname on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:21AM (#19045323)
> Nah, there are plenty of countries that operate fine without cheap imported labor.

This is not true. Farming has always relied on exploited labor in some form. Once easily exploited labor disappears with no machinery to replace them, so too does an agricultural industry. Lots of developed European nations are facing this exact problem.

Paying people proper wages will either cause food to get massively more expensive, or will migrate production to crops that are more readily harvested by machines. So grains will still be dirt cheap, but meat and vegetables will be very expensive.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by nitwit005 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @01:56AM (#19042992)
If you want to provide an industry life support, the normal thing to do is to just subsidize it. Importing people desperate enough to work for low wages in poor conditions seems both odd and explotative.

I personally lack a romantic attachment to these industries, but in general people seem fairly happy to support something like the dairy industry.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by s_y_n_t_a_x on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:16AM (#19043063)
That's the same argument the southern states made for their plantations.

Do you support slave labor?

If you want to support an industry, you subsidize it, you don't import workers to work for breadcrumbs in terrible conditions.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by spangry on Thursday January 31, 2019 @12:33AM (#19042612)
This is also why we should abolish federal and state minimum wage laws. Gotta support those marginal businesses!
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by firstplacelast on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:14PM (#19041984)
LOL. This is so incredibly offensive to Americans. I am the grandson of butchers, farmers, and miners.

In the middle of the US, there are lots of (white) Americans that work in these jobs. Many are very proud of their profession.

Next time you want to go on a trip to "expand your horizons", go to a podunk town in a fly-over state and get to know your fellow Americans.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by StillBored on Thursday January 31, 2019 @12:19AM (#19042562)
Beyond that, to imagine that maintaining a medium sized farm or ranch isn't a skilled position is pure ignorance. There is a reason why a bunch of schools in the midwest were called agricultural schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agricultural_universit...

And its not just the owners, it goes right down to a lot of the year round labor.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by skybrian on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:34PM (#19042084)
There are young people who want to be farmers. Not many of them want to be just a farmhand - they want to own a business. But they'll still need workers.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mywittyname on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:31AM (#19045419)
I'm a white American who grew up harvesting tobacco on the side. It's not a gig Americans are willing to do. It sucks, it's dangerous, it doesn't pay all that well, and it's seasonal. For reference, I quit cutting tobacco in favor of cleaning out sand filters for sewage treatment plants. Which is to say, shoveling literal shit out of a hole in the ground is preferable to being a farmhand.

The American people you see doing this stuff are by-and-large the family of the land owner or teenagers whose backs are still functional (and have school duties during the off-season).

If you have a family, then you're going to need either a primary job, or an RV to move around. The only people making money farming are the land owners, and even then...

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by tptacek on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:23PM (#19042034)
"White"? What does that matter?
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:42PM (#19041836)
We are in agreement. We need some low skills workers, we don’t need all the unregulated low skills workers we have. Instead of 10-15mill, whatever the estimate is, we could probably use 4mill regulated foreign low skills workers to balance economic labor needs with giving and affording our own low skills workers an opportunity to make a living wage. We know it’s possible. We had it in the 70s, 80s, before our low skills workers were undercut in price.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by redditmigrant on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:59AM (#19045653)
> Because you have illegal workers

What data supports this frequently touted conservative notion? There could be other factors. Like for e.g. tomatoes can only be sold at $2/lb before they run into competition from imported tomatoes. So the max anyone can afford to pay is really $X/hr. If they could only find someone at $2*X/hour, they would either not farm tomatoes or invest in machinery.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by SteveNuts on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @08:57PM (#19041586)
How do you keep them from overstaying though?
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:01PM (#19041614)
Punish employers with heavy fines for e-verify violations. If no one hires you, no reason to stick around. This is what Japan does, Korea, Taiwan, etc. The US is way lenient on illegal entry and accommodating to irregular workers. In many countries the only way you get around that is if you work with the local mobsters --so only highly risk taking indivs take that opportunity.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by wyldfire on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:20PM (#19041720)
IIRC employers avoid this liability by executing the fraud themselves. There's no e-verify violation because they use legitimate SSNs from a living person, fraudulently. The workers aren't the problem, the employers are.

Legislators and govt executives look the other way in order to preserve competitive agriculture.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:24PM (#19041746)
Some restauranteurs and other cash businesses try and pull fast ones on the IRS. So the IRS conducts audits and has agents case suspect establishments. No reason DHS/ICE, whatever cannot do the same and jail fraudsters. If they, the Feds, can jail Martha Stewart on unrelated technicalities, they can jail these fraudsters. Start at the top, target big ones and work your way down to the small ones (they'll get the news and come correct).
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by ohithereyou on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:30AM (#19045411)
Martha Stewart, before she was a star, worked as a stockbroker and knew or should have known what she did was wrong.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @11:51AM (#19046195)
Could be, but they didn’t get her on anything related stock trading and instead got her for “lying”. My point is, even if they are unable to catch them red handed (you’d have to be inept), ghetto can always find alternative methods to find someone guilty.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by ohithereyou on Thursday January 31, 2019 @02:25PM (#19047858)
Is your position that lying to federal investigators is okay and should not be punished?
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by stale2002 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:32PM (#19041792)
Sure, so what we can do is punish employers who are found later to have employed people illegally.

IE, if you get "tricked" via a stolen SSN, then the business gets punished regardless.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by skybrian on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:55PM (#19041887)
It's my understanding that farmers avoid this by subcontracting. They don't hire migrant workers themselves. When you're desperate to get the harvest in, you don't vet your subcontractors too closely if they say they can do the job.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by markdown on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:07PM (#19041648)
What is e-verify?
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by grzm on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:08PM (#19041653)
https://www.e-verify.gov

> "ABOUT E-VERIFY"

> "E-Verify is a web-based system that allows enrolled employers to confirm the eligibility of their employees to work in the United States. E-Verify employers verify the identity and employment eligibility of newly hired employees by electronically matching information provided by employees on the Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification, against records available to the Social Security Administration (SSA) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)."

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by markdown on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:14PM (#19041686)
Thanks.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:08PM (#19041654)
E-Verify dot gov. [https://www.e-verify.gov]
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by FakeComments on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @08:59PM (#19041601)
E-verify flags them as not having valid work authorization when their visa expires.

If they reliably can’t find work when here illegally, then there’s less incentive to be here illegally.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by ALittleLight on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @08:59PM (#19041606)
e-verify. If they don't have a job and regular income it won't make sense for them to stay.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by masonic on Thursday January 31, 2019 @03:04AM (#19043251)

  They should also work on a visa system for seasonal (low-skill) workers
That's what H-2[AB] visas are for.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by rangibaby on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @08:59PM (#19041603)
> We need foreign low skilled workers and they want to work, but we need to regulate that workforce so they don't undercut our native low-skills workforce by being unregulated and overwhelming the workforce with cheap unregulated labor.

That ship sailed some time ago to China or anywhere there is a sweatshop.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:04PM (#19041635)
Farm work, restaurant work, construction work, warehouse work cannot be "shipped off to China", yet we have our own population which has been undercut by unregulated cheap labor. We do need a number of foreign workers, but we need to regulate it so as to not flood our labor market and undercut our workers and have it where two grown adults working full time jobs can't afford to live a lower middle class lifestyle (as was possible couple of decades ago).
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by somberi on Thursday January 31, 2019 @04:33AM (#19043599)
Pariculary Farm Work (edited for clarity): Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_Stat...

In 2012, there were 3.2 million farmers,[19] ranchers and other agricultural managers and an estimated 757,900 agricultural workers were legally employed in the US. Animal breeders accounted for 11,500 of those workers with the rest categorized as miscellaneous agricultural workers. The median pay was $9.12 per hour or $18,970 per year.[20]

From 1999–2009, roughly 50% of hired crop farmworkers in the U.S. were noncitizens working without legal authorization.[23] Large farms rely on new immigrants (such as Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, and Mexican) that do not have many other options to work for extremely low wages. The legal status of the worker has been shown to impact the wage received for a job. An agricultural worker with no documentation earns an average of 15% less than one with amnesty or green card.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by skybrian on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:57PM (#19041893)
Farm work could be shipped off by importing food instead of growing it in the U.S. (Farmers going out of business if the cost of labor goes up too much.)
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:08PM (#19041958)
We have seasons and we also have scale. Might lose some green leafy things, but not the real stuff like wheat, sorghum, corn, soy, rice, etc.

Some of these leafy green things are gonna get automated anyway.

Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by skybrian on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:30PM (#19042067)
So, you don't care about California farmers or dairy farmers then.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by mc32 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:07PM (#19042246)
Dairy is pretty automated, farming is getting more and more automated. But, we will be helping many low skills Americans who now get undersold in the labor market. Other advanced economies manage the cost of labor in agribiz, we can too.
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by ojbyrne on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:47PM (#19041863)
Re:U.S. Changes Visa Process for High-Skilled Workers by donavanm on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @09:00PM (#19041611)
Isnt that literally the H2B visa?