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Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by samsonradu on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:52AM (#18952007)
Your ISP would disagree about streaming for the entire month, they bear that cost.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by ahmedalsudani on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:04AM (#18952056)
The customers are paying for the service. They bear the cost.

The idea that ISPs bear the cost of Internet traffic which benefits tech companies is at the centre of their agreement against net neutrality, and it's a fallacious argument.

The ISP is free to decide the price and the quality of the service offered. That's how they recoup their costs, by charging their customers the correct price for the service.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by samsonradu on Sunday January 20, 2019 @07:50AM (#18952805)
Maybe I was not clear enough, I was not defending ISPs. What I meant was that they will bear the extra cost if every subscriber maxes out their bandwidth usage so the cost (and prices therefore) will go up.

What customers pay is an averaged out bandwidth usage from my understanding.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by hnnh44 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @10:19AM (#18953392)
The customer has already paid for a dedicated bandwidth. If the ISP has used an outdated model that doesn't account for current usage, that's their problem. That's how business risk and models work.

They can, and should, respond by modifying their plans accordingly. Once the consumer's contract is up, renew them with a more modern usage model. Until then, you eat the cost for not doing your only job.

The theory that "we didn't build in a margin of error and therefore someone else is responsible" is dangerous to society.

ISPs SHOULD see losses. Their investors aren't entitled to guaranteed profits.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by ghaff on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:34AM (#18953806)
But if everyone uses their connection in inefficient ways (such as letting their video streaming run for hours unwatched) everyone will simply end up paying more at some point.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by jedberg on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:03PM (#18954856)
Only in the United States, because of the lack of ISP competition.

In Europe, as usage goes up, prices stays flat, because ISPs there know that the cost of a marginal bit of data is almost nothing, and they actually have to compete with each other on customer service and price.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by treis on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:19PM (#18955664)
>know that the cost of a marginal bit of data is almost nothing

Until you get to that last bit that your wires and equipment can handle. Then it costs a bunch of money to upgrade those to handle the extra traffic.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by hnnh44 on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:01PM (#18961649)
The idea that everyone should simply pay the same regardless of use is wrong.

Cell phone plans have data tiers and pay-per-use. There's no reason cable companies can't do this either, except it prevents them from fudging costs.

I probably use as much bandwidth as anybody else, and I'd prefer to be accurately charged for it rather than have my provider pull shady net neutrality things or try to become an ad network or buy a media company to "bundle" their services or sell my data to third parties to juice their income.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by ghaff on Monday January 21, 2019 @01:46PM (#18962475)
I don't necessarily disagree but go back to any of the discussions on here about data caps and read all the screams about stifling innovation, etc., etc.

I see both sides. Honestly, I think there was a better argument for it when the heavy users were a small percentage of users downloading a bunch of "Linux distributions" on bittorrent. Today, it's more likely to be a family that uses Netflix a lot.

Metering would change usage for better or worse and the fact is that a lot of domestic phone plans don't have caps, or at least meaningful ones any longer, although they may throttle data at some point.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by sascha_sl on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:36AM (#18952175)
Well, about that...

https://openconnect.netflix.com/en/

It's a smart move really. Netflix saves bandwidth and ISPs save transit capacity.

Might also be the reason Netflix is so good at detecting if you're connecting from a "residential" IP block.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by ksec on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:39PM (#18954683)
I have often wonder why Netflix doesn't uses its Fast.com to offer CDN services.

They could also have offer their Encoding System as Services. I upload a video file, sets a few requirements and I get Netflix Quality encoding in return without me fiddling anything.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by jedberg on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:05PM (#18954868)
The answer to both of those is "because Netflix is a video delivery service, not an infrastructure service". It would be a whole new skillset for the company to offer such a service. Running those things, and selling them, are two very different things.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by ksec on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:59PM (#18957757)
I guess so, It is just a nice idea. It was one day I notice how Fast the response time were in Fast.com compared to others. I am not even sure if Google Edge Node in the ISP even works with the GCP CDN, because their performance don't seems to be leading the pack.

The Market for CDN and Online Video Encoding that Netflix could get are properly in the sub annual $1B range, may be too small for Netflix to even consider.

I just thought the more traffic passing through those FreeBSD Server the better.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by miguelrochefort on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:28AM (#18952534)
How is that compatible with Net Neutrality?

Can an ISP subsidize access to Netflix because they save on transit?

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by usrusr on Sunday January 20, 2019 @08:30AM (#18952948)
It's only incompatible when ISPs actually act on their natural preference for consumption to go towards in-house edge caches. It's not that much different from the ancient art of configuring http servers and caching proxies to get along well (back even caching proxies were still a thing).
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by cbzoiav on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:29AM (#18952542)
CDNs have been doing this for years. It's nothing new!
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by pbhjpbhj on Sunday January 20, 2019 @07:18AM (#18952701)
Which other websites (or consumer media companies) have cabinets in ISPs arrive the globe; honestly I've only heard of Netflix doing it.

So, are there CDNs without their own racks anywhere?

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by cobookman on Sunday January 20, 2019 @07:47AM (#18952800)
Some of Google's services.

See "Edge nodes": https://peering.google.com/#/infrastructure

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by jedberg on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:06PM (#18954881)
YouTube does, and a bunch of other sites do it by using Akamai, CloudFlare, Fastly, etc.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by pbhjpbhj on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:28PM (#18955030)
So Akamai, CloudFlare et al. will locate servers in a large ISPs data centre. TIL, I just assumed once a resource had been cached then they'd effectively have that collocation (logically); I'm surprised if avoiding the cost of the first hit really saves anything for static content.

Obviously anyone streaming video, it's different.

I wonder if BBC iPlayer (major streaming service in UK) collocate with ISPs.

Will those servers have a local (to the ISP) IP, or do the Akamai IPs get physically routed to the AS?

Fascinating stuff.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by lscotte on Sunday January 20, 2019 @09:00AM (#18953056)
It is a CDN, but what's new is that the openconnect appliances are distributed not just in datacenters, but directly to ISPs. Traditional CDNs aren't in your ISP.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by pyvpx on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:46AM (#18953907)
Akamai would like to have a word with you
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by ksec on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:25PM (#18954591)
Do Akamai has Servers right in ISP's DC / Network? I know they are within 1 hoops in lots of places, but never heard they are actually inside ISP's network, which is what Netflix OpenAppliance and Google Edge Node has done.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by jedberg on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:05PM (#18954876)
Netflix got the idea from Akamai. They are in your ISP for sure.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by mavhc on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:37AM (#18952178)
There's basically 2 costs to running a network, buying routers/switches/laying cable, and electricity.

The only thing that matters is peak usage because then you have to buy faster network equipment. If I buy 100MBit internet from my ISP, they basically need to spend, once, whatever 100Mbit of a port looks like, 1/10th of a gigabit port, 1/100th of a 10G port etc. They only have to do that once, yet I pay them every month, they're fine.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by jon-wood on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:50AM (#18952414)
You’re only seeing part of the picture there. Hardware is approximately a one time cost, if you ignore upgrades and maintenance, and electricity is a consideration, but the other part is bandwidth to get data to that port.

ISPs also need a way to get your packets off their network and across to other people’s networks, which are possibly on the other side of the globe. A lot of this is done via peering agreements with other providers, where both parties will agree to connect their networks at a common data centre without charging for data going across that link, but there will still be some data that needs to go across transit providers - these are the companies providing things like transatlantic fibre, or interconnects between different parts of the US. They charge for a pre-agreed amount of bandwidth, and when you burst above that it gets expensive.

These agreements are the core of the net neutrality debate. Traditionally peering agreements would see both parties having a roughly equal amount of traffic going back and forth, however in a world with services like Netflix what you see is a huge amount of bandwidth being used on side of the link. This is why ISPs think Netflix and co should have to pick up the cost of those links.

I don’t agree with that stance since the reason ISPs have customers is often the ability to access those services. However, it’s not quite as clear cut as people make out.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by usrusr on Sunday January 20, 2019 @08:38AM (#18952974)
But the same rule that basic cost equals hardware + setup + energy + maintenance also applies to the upstream provider, and their upstream provider, all the way along the selected route including the biggest interchange touched. The economic arrangements are different, but the cost base is just that.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by yholio on Sunday January 20, 2019 @09:17AM (#18953130)
Sure, and they purchase very expensive equipment to cover the peak bandwidth demand then spread out those capital costs in the form of a monthly bill.

If you want more bandwidth, it's "free" as long as there is room available, otherwise the whole chain needs to upgrade so as not to degrade the service of other customers. On a competitive market, the margins available and the prices should tend to go as tight as possible and the economics will lead to pay for usage.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by pbhjpbhj on Sunday January 20, 2019 @07:20AM (#18952706)
>They charge for a pre-agreed amount of bandwidth, and when you burst above that it gets expensive. //

That's price led though, not cost led.

Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by quickthrower2 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:45AM (#18952393)
Does international traffic and satellites factor in to this? Or is very little traffic (by number of bits) international due to CDNs these days?
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by Mikeb85 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:31AM (#18952350)
They bear the cost to build the infrastructure, but their cost to deliver data is negligible. As long as their infrastructure can handle the maximum capacity spikes, they're basically printing money.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by jedberg on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:15AM (#18952304)
Which I pay them for. If it costs too much, then they need to charge me more.
Re:Netflix claims Fortnite is now a bigger competitor than HBO by skrebbel on Sunday January 20, 2019 @04:03AM (#18952054)
They bear no more cost for that than Netflix. A connection has two ends.