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Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by AlexandrB on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:54AM (#18865068)
> It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too. But this is nothing new, Samsung phones have came preloaded with bloat since forever.

I'm old enough to remember when this was standard. Before smartphones almost all cellphones were bought through carriers and came pre-loaded with a bunch of carrier crapware (often unremovable). One of the best things about the first iPhone was that Apple retained control of the pre-installed apps and AT&T was not allowed to put a bunch of their own garbage on it. 12 years later the lack of crapware remains a key differentiator for iPhones. But what's most surprising is that in an industry where everyone seems keen to copy even Apple's worst ideas (no headphone jack, notches) only a few are copying some of their best.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by simulate on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:38AM (#18865480)
Like the iPhones, phones distributed by Google, starting with the Google Phone G1 in 2008, and continuing to the Nexus phones and today's current Pixel phones (Pixel 1, 2, and 3), have never had crapware.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by Someone1234 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:22PM (#18866589)
That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard.

Google Drive, Gmail, Google Photos, Play Music, Play Movies, Play Games, Play Books, Duo, Google+, and YouTube could all be called as crapware since they aren't required for core phone functions (and upsell for-profit services).

I guess it is somewhat a discussion what we mean by "crapware." But I'd argue most reasonable definitions include at least some of Google's pre-installed apps.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by neya on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:30PM (#18867276)
> That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard.

I need to clarify - I'm not an Apple hater, I own an iPhone, 2 iPads, 2 Macbook Pros and a Mac Mini at the time of this comment.

But, this same logic can be applied to Apple as well. For example, I don't use Apple's photos app at all. And I can't delete it. There is absolutely no way to even replace it. The same logic applies to Apple's crappy music app as well. I use Spotify 100% of the time. Not to mention the constant push to upgrade to Apple music on a system default app is unacceptable.

The photos app isn't crucial to my iPad's core functions. Yet I get constantly harassed with upgrade to iCloud bullshit constantly. Same thing goes with App Store as well, which has no way to turn off upgrade notifications. This is even true of Mac OS X as well, where I get notified constantly to upgrade to Mojave when I have no plans to do so...so that Apple can make my system slower and force me to upgrade my otherwise perfectly functional Mac. It's not like they haven't done this in the past, so...that's the real double standard I would argue.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by olyjohn on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:10PM (#18870369)
What really pissed me off with the last iOS upgrade was the change the made to HomeKit. I had it connected up with my WeMo and Philips Hue devices, and could use Siri to turn on lights, etc.

After the upgrade, I was suddenly required to sign into HomeKit with my Apple ID. What for? It was all working fine without it. None of my "smart" devices need a cloud connection to function. I prefer to not connect everything to the cloud when my home network works just fine for me. Since I refuse to sign in out of spite for this change, now I can't control things with Siri.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by iscrewyou on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:06PM (#18867714)
You can remove most of the non-essential apps like Music, iTunes Store, Maps, News.

I consider Photos and essential app to the phone. But the push to iCloud could be annoying (I haven’t experienced it because I already have it). If I remember correctly, android phones come with a Gallery App for Photos and then additionally Google Photos. This was a few years ago, I’m not sure if it has changed. Whereas iPhones come with Photos and the iCloud functionality built in.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by madeofpalk on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:14PM (#18867800)
Well, no, you can just hide the icon on the screen. That’s all that does, just like how you can ‘disable’ Facebook on the Samsung phones.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by saagarjha on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:43PM (#18868659)
> Well, no, you can just hide the icon on the screen. That’s all that does

This is no longer true since some version of iOS 11. Deleting apps removes them from your system, and you must redownload them from the App Store to get them back. However, while the application bundle might be removed from your device, the frameworks it relies on don't.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:56PM (#18869361)
Disabling system apps on Android doesn't just hide the icon, it stops the app from running (e.g., via intents or other means by which you can run an app without clicking on the icon.) It's in practical effect no different than deleting a non-system app, except that physically the app is still in immutable storage on the device and can be reenabled without being downloaded (barring any subsequent updates to the bundled system version, which would need to be downloaded.)
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by rahoulb on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:45PM (#18868096)
There are functional differences on iOS. For example if you “delete” Apple Music, Siri loses the ability to tell you what song is playing on Spotify (although I haven’t tried it since the original option to delete was added)
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vatueil on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:27PM (#18868483)
Functionally, isn't that much the same as disabling an Android system app?

I wonder if these articles would cease if Android simply changed the label "disable" to "delete" and removed the ability to view and re-enable disabled apps.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by saagarjha on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:44PM (#18868668)
Android system apps can be reenabled without redownloading them, IIRC. On iOS you must download the app again to use it.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vatueil on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:00PM (#18868838)
You would probably want to download the latest update rather than using the old version from the system image, but that's correct. Though IIRC the Facebook "app" the article complains is just a minimal placeholder, with the real app downloaded from the Play Store.

There are some built-in iOS apps that can't be deleted at all, such as Photos. For those that can be "deleted" Apple says users can restore them by downloading the app from the App Store.

But if a user deletes all the built-in apps that can be deleted, are they restored if the iOS device is reset? I would assume so, since wiping a phone is recommended before reselling it and a new user may be confused if default apps are missing, though I don't want to wipe my device just to confirm.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by saagarjha on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:11PM (#18868930)
> There are some built-in iOS apps that can't be deleted at all, such as Photos.

Yes, because if you take photos you kinda need a way to view them. It would be extremely confusing if your pictures you took with Camera ended up being saved somewhere but you could not view them, so Apple seems to have just made it a requirement.

> But if a user deletes all the built-in apps that can be deleted, are they restored if the iOS device is reset? I would assume so, since wiping a phone is recommended before reselling it and a new user may be confused if default apps are missing, though I don't want to wipe my device just to confirm.

That's a good question, and I don't want to wipe my device either. I'll see if I can get access to a "burner" iPhone to test this.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vatueil on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:34PM (#18869156)
Yeah, I agree it makes sense that certain apps shouldn't be easy to get rid of, though in comparison Android does let users disable apps such as the default gallery, browser, and even app store. I think the stock dialer and SMS apps are the main exceptions.

If deleted built-in apps aren't restored even after resetting an iOS 12 device, it's a good thing some apps aren't removable. I wish I'd thought to check before trading in my old iPad.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by lzy on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:35PM (#18870780)
> But if a user deletes all the built-in apps that can be deleted, are they restored if the iOS device is reset?

Yes.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by iscrewyou on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:57PM (#18868814)
I don’t think that’s what it does.

When you redownload a now-deleted-preloaded app, it actually downloads it. You can see the progression in the App Store. Which makes me think that Apple actually removes the App package from the phone.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by jdmichal on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:04PM (#18868868)
This is how disabling apps in Android works also. There is a baseline version baked into the ROM, but any updates are installed into normal memory. Disabling the app removes the updates from normal memory, so when you enable the app again it will (likely) need to update.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by rchaud on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:23PM (#18867905)
> I consider Photos and essential app to the phone.

So do I, but OS vendors are making that experience worse by 'integrating' it to some cloud bullshit whether I want it to or not.

My Galaxy S7 (with all the bloatware the article mentions) was replaced with an "Android One" device from Nokia. First thing I noticed on the Nokia was that the only gallery app was Google Photos, which I want nothing to do with.

The Galaxy S7 had Google Photos, but also Samsung's stock Gallery app, which I greatly preferred because it acts exactly like the dumb pipe I want it to. Same with Samsung Music. On the Nokia, I had to install an alternative app because Play Music is unusable with the constant nagging to join their streaming service.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by bobthepanda on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:44PM (#18868667)
You can turn off iCloud sync in iOS, and you can even do it for Photos specifically. I do because I don't care to have it backed up to iCloud, which I don't pay for.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by cannonedhamster on Friday January 11, 2019 @12:33PM (#18885127)
You know what you can't do with iOS? Use a 3.5mm jack. :D Realistically though I found iOS to be too restrictive and I dislike that there's only one theme that's available. It was far too bright for my eyes at night even with it turned all the way down. Checking my phone at night would often wake my wife. I can't believe that iOS doesn't have a dark theme.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by int_19h on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:32PM (#18870763)
> If I remember correctly, android phones come with a Gallery App for Photos and then additionally Google Photos.

It depends on the phone. On Pixel devices, which is arguably the closest on the Android side to Apple phones in terms of being curated, it's just Photos, plus the ability to swipe back in the camera app.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by bobthepanda on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:45PM (#18868680)
The Photos App is pretty much the end-all, be-all of accessing photos taken by the iPhone's camera. So it makes sense that it's a default app that is uninstallable.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by moron4hire on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:42PM (#18870814)
I get constantly bugged to upgrade to Mojave on my work computer, where corporate IT policy has disabled being able to install it. So the installer can tell I can't do it, but not the notifier.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by simulate on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:57PM (#18866957)
This is identical to how all other phone OS vendors work where the OS vendor pre-installs apps as part of their ecosystem. If you consider them crapware, then there are no major mobile OS vendors who don't install crapware.

iPhone preinstalls 42 apps, not all of which can be easily deleted: App Store, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Clock, Compass, Contacts, FaceTime, Files, Find My Friends, Find My iPhone, Game Center, Health, Home, iBooks, iCloud Drive, iMovie, iTunes Store, iTunes U, Keynote, Mail, Maps, Messages, Music, News, Notes, Numbers, Pages, Passbook, Phone, Photos, Podcasts, Reminders, Safari, Settings, Stocks, Tips, TV, Videos, Voice Memos, Wallet, Watch, Weather

Android comes with 29 preinstalled apps, and like iPhone some of them cannot be easily deleted: Android Pay, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Chrome, Clock, Contacts, Docs, Downloads, Drive, Duo, Gmail, Google, Google+, Keep, Maps, Messages, News & Weather, Phone, Photos, Play Books, Play Games, Play Movies & TV, Play Music, Play Store, Settings, Sheets, Slides, YouTube

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by judge2020 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:23PM (#18867201)
(as said in the other comment thread): you can delete many stock apps in iOS:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208094

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vatueil on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:12PM (#18868340)
If the default apps are restored after a factory reset then "deleting" a built-in app in iOS isn't really any different from disabling an Android system app.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by saagarjha on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:47PM (#18868695)
Apple distinguishes between deleting apps and hiding them: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204221
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by tapland on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:11PM (#18868928)
It reads just like the android way of disabling: Removes cache and user data, if you go to the app-store to 'enable' it again it has a small install file already on system and either automatically updates before use (iOS) or puts available updates in the download queue (android).
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vatueil on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:09PM (#18868913)
What happens if you resell an iPhone from which you've "deleted" apps such as Contacts, Maps, and Music? Does wiping and resetting the device restore it to stock condition, including those default apps?

If not, that seems potentially confusing for secondhand users. Some apps such as Phone and Photos cannot be removed in any way, but users may still be confused if other default apps are missing.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by sfotm on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:05PM (#18867023)
iPhones now let you uninstall almost all of those. I know Safari and the App Store are two of the rare exceptions.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by drdaeman on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:32PM (#18870126)
Safari, AppStore, Phone, Messages, Clock, Photos, Camera, Health, Settings. I think that's the full list of the apps that can't be removed from iPhone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by merb on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:45PM (#18870212)
Calculator?
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by lzy on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:36PM (#18870787)
Can be deleted as well.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by gregknicholson on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:08PM (#18867737)
How very generous of them!

Not getting at you personally here :) just... it's astonishing how quickly we've gotten used to the idea that you'll pay hundreds of dollars for a licence to use a device that you're not really in control of.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by ghettoimp on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:14PM (#18870394)
Hyperbole...

You see a lack of control over your own device. I see someone else managing my device for me so that I don't have to think about it.

You see the app store locking you in. I see it protecting me from malware and keeping me secure.

I know you're right and I should care more.

You can appreciate how nice it would be to just let someone else figure it all out and take care of it for you.

"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." - Thoreau

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by gregknicholson on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:44PM (#18878558)
I agree it's good to have someone else looking after your device for you.

But Samsung's flavour of Android is not that. You have to pay extra attention because you can't trust it not to trick you into something you don't want — “agreeing” to adverts or sending personal data. You're constantly batting away flies. It's user-hostile, not user-friendly.

This is why I prefer Fedora to Windows: the intent of the person managing my device for me is to make a useful tool (not to enhance my experience in association with select commercial partners), and this aligns with my goals.

Peace of mind is precisely why well-maintained free software is more user-friendly than consumer shovelware.

(My job involves testing a website. This week I used a Samsung Galaxy S5. Peel Remote™ has to be an extremely elaborate parody… right?)

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by zepto on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:45PM (#18867444)
Almost all of the apps you listed can be deleted just like any other. Are you trying to create a misleading comparison on purpose?
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by JoshTriplett on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:48PM (#18866862)
You can remove all of the Google apps, though. (You can't remove the storage space they take up on the phone's ROM, as they ship on the stock device so that they don't need a download at setup time, but you can completely disable them so that they're treated as not installed.)

Also, these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions; frankly, many people use them more often than they make phonecalls.

(Personally, I disable around half of those apps, along with Chrome.)

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by ptero on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:31PM (#18869125)
> these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions

Yes, which is why I want full freedom to choose clients and apps that would be doing this on my phone.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by fanzhang on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:24PM (#18870075)
I disagree with a definition of crapware that emphasizes the inability to remove, rather than the clear crappyness. I would call the first mandatoryware.

To me, crapware is:

- Order of magnitude bad engineering by industry standards (esp if it is not customer centric).

- So bad that if it could be removed, a majority of people who know how would remove it immediately.

- So bad that if [FANG / anyone competent at software] designed an alternative, most people would switch to it.

Crapware for me is not identically equivalent to mandatoryware. I get the GNU-like hate for mandatoryware from some people, but it's useful to have a distinction between (potentially subpar) mandatoryware like IE in Windows XP, and the absolute rubbish that was Verizon Music Store on my 2005 flip phone.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by jrockway on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:09PM (#18867062)
I mean... then Apple bundles crapware too. iTunes Store, Pages, Weather, Find Friends, and a bunch of other stuff that I put in a folder inside a folder and promptly forgot about when I got my first iPhone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by gbear605 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:26PM (#18871512)
Those are all deleteable since iOS 11
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by rglullis on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:26PM (#18866639)
Not defending Google's practices, but there is no double standard here. Apple's apps are also not removable in the iPhone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by BurritoAlPastor on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:36PM (#18866746)
Actually, most of them are removable! Only a few apps that are deeply tied to the system (Settings, Photos, App Store, Clock, Messages, etc) can’t be deleted, but you can remove Maps, Weather, Music, Calculator, etc.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by javagram on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:32PM (#18866696)
Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted.

I just deleted the built in Mail app from my iPhone and it worked fine.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by saagarjha on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:48PM (#18868710)
> Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted.

The app is deleted, but the frameworks and system assets it relies on are not.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by soperj on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @05:16PM (#18869540)
Where does Siri fit in with your model there?
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by retzkek on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:38AM (#18866099)
I believe this is also true of the many phones branded "Android One" https://www.android.com/one/
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by lawl on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:47AM (#18866208)
That's what I thought too. Bought a Nokia/HMD android one phone, not through my carrier. After I put my SIM in and booted the phone it started downloading crapware my provider offers...

Luckily downloaded regularly through the play-store, so I could just immediately delete it afterwards. But it still seems there's deals going on there even if you don't buy the phone from your carrier and it's android one.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:48AM (#18865588)
I have (outside of my personal iPhone) an LG ThinQ 7 through work and I don't recall it coming loaded with a bunch of crapware, either. There were your standard apps plus "LG Switch" which is for file transfers and "LG Health" which is pretty self-explanatory. Beyond that there was NextRadio as the phone has an FM receiver. Plus the Google Play stuff.

Not too bad. Can't say anything about their other phones, though.

(Prior to this phone I had a Samsung S6 and that thing was nightmarish with all the bloatware)

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by pacala on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:02AM (#18865726)
Never had crapware other than google ‘s own spyware.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by knob on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:30PM (#18868512)
That's not true.

My Nexus5 had "HP Cloud Print". Undeletable.

Which was the reason I installed Cyanogenmod.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by bitbiter on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:37AM (#18866096)
The Nexus One had preinstalled apps that could not be removed, specifically Amazon MP3, Twitter, and Facebook.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by maxxxxx on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:41PM (#18866782)
My Moto G also has a pretty basic Android without crapware other than a ton of Google Play apps.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by Meic on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:29PM (#18866668)
Unless you count various preinstalled Google apps as crapware.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by clairity on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:54PM (#18867566)
> “But what's most surprising is that in an industry where everyone seems keen to copy even Apple's worst ideas (no headphone jack, notches) only a few are copying some of their best.”

this is not surprising at all when you consider the ability to add crapware was a key differentiator for carriers of android relative to ios. ios threatened to disintermediate carriers out of phones, reducing the carriers’ value in the value chain. as iphones became popular, carriers glommed onto android to combat that threat. they continue to do so to keep apple at bay and maintain control over the phone.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by partiallypro on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:46AM (#18865567)
Android itself has undeletable Google apps.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by simulate on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:55AM (#18865666)
All phones have undeletable apps provided by their manufacturers. For example, on iPhones you cannot delete Messages, Phone, Safari, Clock, Photos, Health, App Store, and Camera in a conventional way.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by reaperducer on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:53AM (#18866270)
Phone

Not much of a phone without a phone app.

But Apple does sell an iPhone without a Phone app. It's called an iPod.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by Rebelgecko on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:00PM (#18867646)
Does iOS not support 3rd party dialer and SMS apps?
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by ryandrake on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:06PM (#18868293)
It does not. Just things like Skype, WhatsApp, etc.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:58AM (#18866335)
They are easily disable-able.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by tatami on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:33AM (#18871971)
Not all of them. I couldn't disable Chrome on my previous smartphone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:35AM (#18873377)
That's the manufacturer playing shenanigans. Unfortunately, it happens (Samsung?). It is still disable-able, just not as easily, as you need adb and usb cable.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by petre on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:24AM (#18865955)
You can install LineageOS if your phone supports it. No Google Apps unless you install them. Also no crap.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by dalore on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:29PM (#18866665)
Not all Android platforms. The Amazon Fire platform which is Android is clearly lacking the Google apps and it's pain to install them.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:32PM (#18866699)
> The Amazon Fire platform which is Android

No, while it is an AOSP-derivative, it is not Android.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by dalore on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:09PM (#18867749)
You better update Wikipedia with that information then: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_OS

> Amazon Fire OS is an Android-based mobile operating system produced by Amazon ....

The A in AOSP stands for Android. Android Operating System

Guess you're splitting hairs and trying to say Android based isn't the same as saying Android.

I would argue that the AOSP is Android (and that's what Wikipedia confirms here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system) )

You're getting it confused with Google Mobile Services which is the crapware in question.

> Android is also associated with a suite of proprietary software developed by Google, called Google Mobile Services[10] (GMS) that very frequently comes pre-installed in devices, which usually includes the Google Chrome web browser and Google Search and always includes core apps for services such as Gmail, as well as the application store and digital distribution platform Google Play, and associated development platform. These apps are licensed by manufacturers of Android devices certified under standards imposed by Google, but AOSP has been used as the basis of competing Android ecosystems, such as Amazon.com's Fire OS, which use their own equivalents to GMS.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:52PM (#18868169)
> You better update Wikipedia with that information then

I'm under no obligation to correct every error in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia> Amazon Fire OS is an Android-based mobile operating system

It's actually AOSP-based, more than Android-based (whether the relationship between the two is such that the former is a subset of the latter is...another discussion.) But even Android-based isn't Android (OS X is BSD-based, but not BSD; MariaDB is MySQL based, but not MySQL; the legal systems of much of the US are English Common Law-based, but not English Common Law)

Android devices, Android-compatible (per the ACP) devices, and devices running derivatives of the AOSP source code constitute a sequence in which each item describes a superset of the set described by the preceding item.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by tapland on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:13PM (#18868948)
It is Android. You go into your settings and enable installation from unknown sources to install the Play store and run android apps just like any other android device.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by detaro on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:57PM (#18868218)
Android.com shows Amazon Fire devices as examples of the wide freedom Android offers, so apparently Google disagrees with your definition of "Android".
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by mariusmg on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:22AM (#18865315)
Windows Phones didn't had crap on them either. This is strictly a Android issue.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by czechdeveloper on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:37AM (#18865463)
Windows 10 comes with crap even in Pro version these days (Candy Crush etc.), so it was just because nobody cared enough to create that crap for Windows Phone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by wlesieutre on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:03AM (#18865734)
I'm sure there was plenty of crap available. Didn't MS pay developers cash for any garbage they shoveled in just to get the "We have XXXX aps available" count up?

The real "problem" was nobody wanted to pay Microsoft for the privilege of having their crap preinstalled.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by int_19h on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:36PM (#18870783)
These aren't preinstalled though. It places a tile in the default setup for it, and the app gets installed if you click on it. If you delete the tile instead, the app is never even installed.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by ajmurmann on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:32AM (#18865410)
At least the Nexus phones I've had also never came with crap ware. This is yet another reason why I would only ever by a Android phone from Google. Of course the main reason are the longer update cycles that might even delay arrival of security updates. I really wish Google had gone the exact same route as Apple and only shipped Android phones themselves. To me the collaboration with random manufacturers also weakened the Nexus brand. I have zero brand loyalty to Samsung, LG or HTC. I wanted a Google phone. My iPhone doesn't say "Foxconn" on it, so why did my Nexus say "LG" and the next one "Samsung"?! I'm always surprised that these concerns apparently aren't shared by the market and people are happily buying Samsung phones with crap on it and unnecessary changes to Android that just result in getting updates super late.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by howard941 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:13PM (#18867097)
In that Google is a marketing entity perhaps it's simply exercising one of the circa 2002 Spolsky doctrines linked to yesterday (https://www.gwern.net/Complement)? As far as Goggle's concerned the Androids are commodities that exist to run marketing-related software. FWIW I share your desires and wishes.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by llampx on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:46AM (#18873741)
OEMs have always made better phones than Google themselves by improving and enhancing Android. Many improvements to Android came from Samsung, HTC and Motorola - the OEMs. Post 5.0, Google has only ever made improvements to Android to benefit its own hardware and ecosystem. For example, the Galaxy Nexus had no MicroSD slot even though the Galaxy phone it was based on did. Even now, Samsung is offering a phone with a headphone jack whereas Google has made their last two phones without, in a completely anti-consumer move.

Today's "Samsung crap" is tomorrow's "Brand-new Android feature that you need to enable Google tracking to use"

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by petepete on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:45PM (#18869249)
Android One phones are like this. My Nokia 8 Sirocco came with only one non-stock app (Nokia Support).
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by ofcrpls on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:04AM (#18865750)
Before the program cancellation,there were talks on making this happen. They didn't do it, but considering it was preload apps or cancellation, that just goees to show how desperate of a move preloadsare in general.

Source : I was part of a team whose app was getting primed up for a preload on WP8.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by tssva on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:34AM (#18865429)
Many Android phones don't have "crap" installed on them. This is a phone manufacturer issue and not an Android phone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by siffland on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:41AM (#18865521)
My LG has LG software preloaded and t-mobile software pre loaded. it just takes up space and would be fine, but it is annoying. One of the LG pieces of software (i thin it is a back up thing) does not work anymore, but still exists. An silly things like the t-mobile permanent unlock your phone app. My phone has been paid for for like a year and if i click the app and request a permanent, or temp unlock it says i am not eligible, but i cannot uninstall the app.

I have heard the argument about being able to hide the apps, but it is not the same. This is the first android phone i have had where i didnt root it and install a new android version. Just got tired of that (lack of security updates). So i am stuck with crapware.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by untog on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:39AM (#18865497)
It's both. Why does Android have undeletable apps anyway?
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:57AM (#18866322)
> Why does Android have undeletable apps anyway?

It was explained only zillion times, but I will try one more:

In android, you have storage in two partitions: /system and /data.

/system is read-only, this is where anything that is shipped with phone is stored. Outside of system updates, it is not being touched.

/data is, where user data, installed applications, configuration, etc. is stored.

To factory reset the phone, you just wipe the /data. No separate partition for factory reset is necessary, because /system due to its immutability doubles as one. Anything you configure/change/etc is stored on /data. If you disable any bundled app, whether through gui or adb, the info that you disabled it is written into /data.

Once you want to sell your phone on craiglist, you wipe /data and the buyer gets exactly the same software you originally got.

There is also secondary use of the immutability: android system is distributed as partition image, not as a file archive. That means, that the physical fs layout is same for all devices of the same SKU, can be signed (dm-verity), and then verified at boot, whether the filesystem was modified or not. This is being used for ensuring secure boot, and unsealing secrets in trusted environment.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by untog on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:22PM (#18867197)
What you're saying is that Android has undeletable apps because Android was created in such a way that it allows undeletable apps. Which is circular logic.

And the issue here is pretty clearly that users have to resort to adb to disable these apps. Why does Android force this? There is no reason, it could easily be built into the Android GUI.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by dragonwriter on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:38PM (#18867370)
> And the issue here is pretty clearly that users have to resort to adb to disable these apps

No, you can disable (not delete or uninstall) nondeletable (system) apps on Android without adb. adb also lets you “uninstall” them for a given user (but not from the device), which makes them less visible to the user than disabled apps, but it's not clear to me that it does anything substantively different, since neither disabled nor uninstalled-for-current-user apps run.

> Why does Android force this? There is no reason, it could easily be built into the Android GUI.

The only difference I am aware of between disabling through the GUI and uninstalling for a particular user with adb is that the former allows you to reenable through the UI if you later choose to, whereas the latter removes it from the All Apps list in Settings, making it invisible from the UI and impossible to enable.

Requiring the latter to require the user to use the same tool necessary to reverse the process makes it less likely that users will accidentally do something that the same user can't reverse if they change their mind.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:55PM (#18868198)
If you are so much bothered by Android design, adjust your POV slightly: consider /system to be recovery partition (you cannot delete anything from any recovery partion of any system, so Android is no exception here) that shares data blocks with main system, created at boot in RAM. Because that it effectively is.

You don't have to resort to ADB to disable these apps for the most part; You can do it in Settings. For some apps you cannot do that in GUI - for Settings itself, for example, so the users don't shoot themselves in the foot. Unfortunately, some manufacturers abuse this and mark as undisable-able apps, that they shouldn't. Over ADB, they can't disable it, so it works for any app, including Settings.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by Rebelgecko on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:03PM (#18867684)
I'm assuming it's to avoid a situation where Grandma accidentally deletes her web browser and the Play Store and doesn't know how to unbrick her phone.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by int_19h on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:38PM (#18870799)
It doesn't have undeletable apps, since adb lets you delete anything (although the exact semantics of "delete" will be different for apps that are installed on the system partition - but not in a way that matters to end users).

It has apps that cannot be installed from the phone UI. Which kinda makes sense, since you don't want people randomly uninstalling, say, the app store, and then complaining that their phone is bricked. OTOH, someone who knows how to do this via adb can be presumed to know what they're doing.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by drb91 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @10:39AM (#18865492)
Well those phones aren’t running ios or windows....
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by rchaud on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:30PM (#18867956)
Windows Phone didn't survive in the market long enough to start adding crapware. With their < 1% market share (not exaggerating), it's not like app makers were knocking down MS' doors to include their apps on WP devices.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by culot on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:31AM (#18866024)
AT&T variants usually came with crapware. You could uninstall most/all of it though. AT&T Android phones are of course far worse though.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by reshie on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:10AM (#18865819)
for the longest time ios would have facebook\twitter in settings even if you uninstall it(still residual but mostly deleted and took miniscule space) but at least you could get rid of it within a few taps.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by saagarjha on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:51PM (#18868744)
> for the longest time ios would have facebook\twitter in settings even if you uninstall it

Clarification: this was not the apps; these were system hooks for sharing content through these services.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by aaaaaaaaaab on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:12AM (#18865835)
Laptops with preinstalled Windows also have a tremendous amount of crapware from various vendors. Trial versions of antivirus software, system "optimizing" apps, sometimes outright spyware too.

Thankfully Mac users don't have to put up with this kind of consumer-hostile bullshit.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:01PM (#18866367)
Macs have all consumer Apple apps preloaded, and the user cannot delete them without reinstalling macOS from scratch.

Imagine a poor user, getting Apple computer with 128GB SSD, where 10GB or more is being taken by GarageBand or iMovie, which he isn't going to touch during the machine lifetime.

Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by nildos on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:20PM (#18866556)
You can delete the big apps tho. The biggest mandatory app is iTunes and it's only 213Mb. Kind of bugs me that I can't delete 8Mbs of Chess anyway.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:34PM (#18866706)
I just tried it in 10.14... and you are right! It wasn't possible in 10.12/10.13.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by Toutou on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:29PM (#18869099)
Definitely possible at least since 10.10 (Yosemite). Not sure how SIP affects this, as I have it disabled.
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by vetinari on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @05:46PM (#18869790)
In Yosemite or without SIP it would be possible with plain sudo. In El-Capitan it definitely wasn't that easy (I do have SIP enabled).
Re:Samsung Phone Users Perturbed to Find They Can't Delete F... by asveikau on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:50PM (#18868733)
It used to be if you did the Windows installation yourself from a clean image from Microsoft, you didn't get crapware. With Windows 10 I can report this is no longer true. You get Candy Crush and all sorts of nonsense. I had a non-removable XBox app. I had to disable a lot of crap to get Windows 10 to perform well in a VM on one of my machines.