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Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by olivermarks on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:24PM (#18807937)
EV's are enormously subsidized in oil rich Norway, as they are in China. It is encouraging that such a cold country can run EV's though, it seems they generally perform much better in warmer climates
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by pi-rat on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:45PM (#18808165)
As an interesting side note to this, while we might (temporarily) lose some range on cold winter days, our car batteries have remarkable little degradation compared to EVs from warmer climates. Used EVs imported from i.e. southern France to Norway usually have significantly lower remaining battery capacity than a car that has spent it's entire life in Norway.

Seems heat really kills these things :)

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by olivermarks on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:52PM (#18808250)
Better performance from batteries in hot climates but faster degradation due to heat soak. I believe this is also a significant issue with battery fire risk- the hotter the battery the more of an issue it is extinguishing compromised battery cells that are still powerful stores of energy after an accident. The recombustion issues after fires have been put out are more serious in hotter climates
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by pedrocr on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:50PM (#18808226)
I had never heard about this. Do you have a reference? How big is the difference?
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by pi-rat on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:30PM (#18809266)
I don't have any actual numbers, sorry. I just remember being warned to be careful about cars from hot climates (like southern europe, and some US locations) a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf. Demands for EVs were very high in Norway, and resellers had to import (and still do) used EVs from other countries.

I found a life expectation chart for 3 US cities at [0].

It's well know that high temperatures (while in use and while in storage) degrade li-ion batteries[1]. However, electric cars have thermal management systems to try to protect the batteries from this effect (extreme heat and cold). Tesla have active water cooling, while Nissan Leaf use a simpler air cooling.

They also use different battery chemistries that handle temperatures differently. If you have a look quick look at this talk[2] you'll hear that Nissan is using a chemistry that experience higher degradation under high temperatures than for example Tesla's choice.

[0]: https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric...

[1]: https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand...

[2]: https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by pedrocr on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:50PM (#18809468)
> a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf

The Leaf was notorious for not actually cooling the battery so I can see how they would do better in Norway. Maybe the newest generations have improved on that. I'd be curious if that was the same for Tesla though, which supposedly keeps the battery temperate under much better control.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by outworlder on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:47PM (#18810017)
Some Leaf generations are more sensitive than others (chemistry was slightly different). Sustained heat will still degrade them more quickly than expected though. Tesla has active temperature management, but also has a different chemistry which should be more sensitive than the one used in the Leaf.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Scoundreller on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:27PM (#18808608)
There are cold parts to the country, but a lot of the population lives in the South near the sea where the winter night time temperature doesn’t go much below zero Celsius.

And your vehicle is exposed to more moderated temperatures if parked indoors (even the pad of an unheated garage retains heat).

Plenty of parts of the US and Canada deal with much colder temperatures for months at a time.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by acchow on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:47PM (#18809430)
According to the graphs here, the most significant drop in range is cooling from the 10-20C bracket down to the 0-10C bracket

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel...

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Scoundreller on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:43PM (#18809991)
That makes sense (but wow the variability on their initial plots!).

It would be nice to see plots for ranges of temps below 0C or temperatures where AC is desired.

I think a lot of people think of Norway in winter like they think of N. Minnesota in winter.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by ars on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:56PM (#18808294)
I think the issue in cold climates is not the battery itself, it's heating the cabin.

With a combustion engine you use waste heat, but with a battery engine you use resistive heat and that comes right from your battery.

A/C also uses battery, but heat uses more energy.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Scoundreller on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:42PM (#18808760)
Recommendation #1: heat the occupant, not the cabin

Recommendation #2: pre-heat the cabin

Recommendation #3: if/when driving in stop&go traffic, use the regen energy directly for heating to save some charge/discharge cycles.

Recommendation #4: along with #2, use some phase change materials to “charge” some thermal batteries.

#1&2 are a thing. Not sure about 3 and 4.

3 may require some predictive modelling to know if you’ll be driving in stop&go or not.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by londons_explore on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:34AM (#18814387)
Pretty much no vehicles currently do #3, despite many being capable of it with software-only changes.

I believe this is because most vehicles do a fixed amount of regen(which goes into the battery) when the foot is off the accelerator, but no additional electric braking when the brake pedal is used. I think that's because current regulations have pretty much stopped modifications to the braking system in cars, and prevent tweaking it to do electric braking when available to do cabin heating, and mechanical braking otherwise.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by icebraining on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:15PM (#18809065)
How is #1 done?
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by jusssi on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:51PM (#18809484)
With a seat heater. They were popular in the old times, when engines were not digitally controlled and took a long time to heat up enough to provide any warming effect inside the car.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by LinuxBender on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:13PM (#18809709)
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by kwhitefoot on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:58PM (#18817282)
Every car I've been in in Norway has had heaters in at least the front seats. The Tesla S has rear seat heaters as a configuration option when you buy the car as well as an option for a heated steering wheel. Quite a lot of the cars I rented in the US had heated seats, even in North Carolina.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Scoundreller on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:35PM (#18809327)
Heated seats and steering wheels.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by baroffoos on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:21AM (#18813002)
Dress properly for the weather.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by avar on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:30PM (#18811752)
With clothing.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by londons_explore on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:37AM (#18814397)
Heat pumps can be used to heat the cabin with far less energy than resistive heaters. It's tricky to design them to be cheap, light, and work all the way down to -30C and up to 60C that cars are expected to be able to work in.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by goodcanadian on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:25PM (#18808593)
A/C also uses battery, but heat uses more energy.

I can't speak for all cars, but mine uses a heat pump for heat. Should have similar efficiency to A/C as that is exactly what a heat pump is.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by tigershark on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:36PM (#18808691)
Heat pump with outside temperatures below zero has same or lower efficiency than resistive heating.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by g8oz on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:15PM (#18810267)
A modern heat pump with a variable speed compressor can be more efficient than resistive heat down to about -25 degrees Celsius (-13F). See Mitsubishi's Mr. Slim series.

http://cdn.agilitycms.com/mesca/productdownloads/mem-201806-... (page 13)

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by tigershark on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:18AM (#18813629)
And if you use a ground source heat pump (that has to be interred) it would be even more efficient. So? I don’t think that you can put either of them in a car...
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by g8oz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:34AM (#18815823)
The offerings from Mitsubishi and similar ones from other Asian manufacturers like LG and Fujitsu are air source heat pumps. I see no reason why the tech can't be scaled down to fit a car. It's certainly a reasonable goal for auto parts suppliers to aim at.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Faaak on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:58PM (#18810123)
I suppose the cars heats resistively below zero, and with a heat pump above
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Scoundreller on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:33PM (#18808661)
Their efficiency goes way down the colder it gets. They’ll work well at 5-10C, but frost up and require electrically-expensive defrost cycles when it’s colder than -2 or -3 C.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by p1mrx on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:25PM (#18808595)
Some EVs produce heat more efficiently using a heat pump, which is basically an A/C running backwards.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by xxs on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:54PM (#18808877)
this works at 3-4C, falling down the efficiency drops off rapidly.

House geothermic heating is very similar, except the collector is buried under the ground where the temperature doesn't really go negative C (until -30C and depends on the soil, etc). Overall for EV cars in cold winters producing heat is a non-trivial task.

Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by olivermarks on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:37PM (#18809343)
IC engines drive all associated 'accessories' via belts where EV has to have dedicated battery draining motors for everything from windscreen wipers to hvac
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by Rinzler89 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:49PM (#18810579)
That's not completely true. For fuel efficiency, most modern ICE cars drive all the accessories with electric motors, with only the AC and brake booster being powered by the ICE in some cases.
Re:Norway's electric cars zip to new record: almost a third ... by olivermarks on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:28PM (#18810932)
Alternator charges battery