News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Isinlor on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:47PM (#18779300)
There is also question of externalities. Building roads is not without hidden costs. Splitting communities in cities, making distances to travel longer because adding places for streets and parking places spreads infrastructure, air pollution killing people, lack of movement killing people, noise pollution, ugliness etc.

I really like Dutch approach. Take away some space from cars in order to build biking infrastructure. I live second year in Netherlands and I love it.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by bb88 on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:20PM (#18780610)
Bike infrastructure can in fact increase congestion.

Fivethirtyeight did a study in Minneapolis on bike lanes constructed earlier this decade and showed that bike lanes did increase congestion for 10 roads they looked at.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bike-lanes-dont-cause-t...

Anecdotally, the mid sized city I lived in added a bike lane experimentally on my commute to work. The lanes going into the city decreased from 4 to 3 and immediately increased the amount of congestion. It also slowed my commute anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes based upon what time I left.

And the sad thing was, nobody used the new bike lane. I never saw a single rider use those lanes during my morning commute.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Isinlor on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:50PM (#18780838)
Adding a single bike line is like adding a single road in middle of nowhere. Dutch have bike infrastructure. Here you can go on a bike everywhere and leave bike everywhere. They have very clever solutions to avoid conflicts between cars and bikes, so it feels very safe and you can simply relax. Actually, some cities in Netherlands start to have issues with bike lines congestion :) .

https://bicycledutch.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/groningen07...

I was studying in Groningen and I can tell you this is a daily occurrence there, sometimes it's even worse since the photo is from a rainy day in winter :P .

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_the_Netherlands

By 2012 cycling had grown tremendously in popularity. In Amsterdam alone, 490,000 cyclists took to the road to cycle 2 million kilometres every day, according to its city council statistics. This has caused some problems as, despite 35,000 kilometers of bicycle paths, the country's 18 million bicycles (1.3 per citizen old enough to ride) sometimes clog Dutch cities' busiest streets. This is being addressed by building even more bike lanes to tackle a problem many other cities in the world would envy — that of bicycle traffic congestion.

Also, it takes time to build biking culture. And as a side note, biking infrastructure in Groningen was build on anti-car sentiments. They wanted to get rid of cars from the city, not to relive car congestion. They did get rid of them especially from the center and the city is now lovely for pedestrians and cyclists. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by realityczeque on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:36PM (#18780744)
Your windshield perspective is showing. The reason people in cars don't notice bike traffic is because a bike is small and unobtrusive and silent. Fifty cars in the same place is an epic disaster but fifty bikes in the same place is not a problem.

Take for example this data in London, which was produced in response to a question from a member of the public having essentially the same bias as your statement "nobody uses this bike lane." In London some bike lanes have slightly increased travel times by car but cycling has increased more than 50%. The bike lane is five times more efficient at moving people than is the carriageway.

http://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-1235-1718/20170317%20STB%20CSEW%20...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by bb88 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:12AM (#18781989)
> In London some bike lanes have slightly increased travel times by car but cycling has increased more than 50%.

50% of anything near zero is still darn close to zero. But at the same token, a 5 minute increase for 1000 people is a loss of 5000 minutes.

> The reason people in cars don't notice bike traffic is because a bike is small and unobtrusive and silent.

False. A single bike sticks out like a sore thumb in traffic -- even if there's a bike lane. In this case, I was so pissed off at the increase of my commute I started to count bikes in the bike lane, and I saw exactly zero.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by tinus_hn on Saturday December 29, 2018 @08:22AM (#18783443)
The paper has the number of bikers. But I’m sure your statistically representative research of ‘watching for bikers while driving once’ is much more worthwhile.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by bb88 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @05:37PM (#18786110)
My apologies. It was 0 over the course of 30 days of commuting. Exactly 0.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ubercow13 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @07:20AM (#18783290)
Have you considered using the bike lane yourself?
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by dovvdkc on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:32AM (#18784311)
To start off that’s ableist. And reeks of privilege (can he afford to live a biking distance to work?)

But that doesn’t matter - someone unilaterally changes something and everyone else is supposed to get with the program or find a hole to die in.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ubercow13 on Monday December 31, 2018 @04:21AM (#18793780)
I don't think its ableist, I wasn't suggesting that there shouldn't be a road for cars, or that they should even bike themselves. I was just wondering if they had considered why they didn't want to use it as that might shed light on why it wasn't a successful bike lane.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by JAlexoid on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:11PM (#18807792)
Like the motorists changed laws concerning pedestrian traffic and road laws?
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by bb88 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @05:42PM (#18786130)
Yes, but I have a life long history of listening to horror stories of people on bikes getting hit by cars.

These days, I fly back and forth to work, so it makes little sense to use a bike.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by dirkgently on Saturday December 29, 2018 @10:58AM (#18784141)
> so pissed off

> single bike sticks out like a sore thumb

Now it totally makes sense.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by dovvdkc on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:34AM (#18784320)
Well when you have to dodge an unfit person going up a hill you notice.

I’m all for bike lanes. And bicycle licenses. Can’t go up the 80 percentile hill in your town at 20 mph? You fail.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by int_19h on Friday December 28, 2018 @11:46PM (#18781890)
There are plenty of places in US that are exactly as OP has described. This is not because bike lanes aren't inefficient per se, but because they're often built in the wrong places, or lack other infrastructure.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by alistairSH on Saturday December 29, 2018 @10:14AM (#18783913)
Lack of related infrastructure is a real problem.

Bike lanes built one at a time, and not connected. So, if you happen to live and work along a single bike lane, great. If not, you're back in the car.

Lack of bicycle facilities at destinations. My office has a tiny, poorly constructed rack outdoors. I wouldn't trust it to hold my bicycle, even with a good lock. Much of the USA is warm or hot in summer, so anything more than a few miles on the bike results in lots of sweating, so showers at offices would be helpful.

In places where bicycle infrastructure is provided, it is well used. The first Reston Metro stop (Weihle Station) has a large, locked bike room with nice racks and a small workbench area. The station is located right off one of the regions main multi-use paths. That bike room is heavily utilized.

Sadly, the second Reston Metro station, Reston Town Center, doesn't provide any infrastructure at all. No bike storage, no parking, nothing. Not sure what the heck the county was thinking when planning this station.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by bb88 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @05:58PM (#18786215)
> Bike lanes built one at a time, and not connected.

That's probably the number one problem of bike lanes.

The second problem is that if you add a bike lane, you have to take something away. Usually it's parking or traffic lanes. And neither of those are super popular.

> Much of the USA is warm or hot in summer, so anything more than a few miles on the bike results in lots of sweating

Or there's snow on the ground 4 months out of the year, and makes it a real pain to commute on a bike. Or in several places, you have both. Chicago comes to mind.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by JAlexoid on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:16PM (#18807846)
On street parking is a horrible thing to have in any urban area. That MUST be banned.

Bike lanes are beneficial in urban areas, and that's pretty much it.

But when it comes to US, the bike lanes is the last thing when it comes to the kindergarten level of infrastructure planning. In my experience infrastructure in US was planned exclusively by NIMBYs...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Too on Sunday December 30, 2018 @02:21AM (#18787927)
Increase congestion...for the people still using the car instead of the shiny new bike lane. Use the bike and problem solved, for those that don't, well suit yourself.

And as others noted. A single bike line without connecting lanes will not change people's commute. Changing habit is also something that doesn't happen over a day or even a year. It might take 5 years for the effect to show.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by StillBored on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:06PM (#18785158)
Sounds like Austin, where the prevailing wisdom is to covert car lanes to bike lanes. Which causes nothing but problems because the couple people a day who use the lanes in no way compensates for the cascading problems as fewer cars can drive through an intersection during a light cycle, which means the cross streets start to pile up/etc.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by electric_muse on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:29PM (#18785258)
This is happening in New York right now. Massive investment in bike infrastructure. But congestion hasn’t improved at all. Combined with increased ride sharing, NYC roads are now 15% slower. We need solutions for average people, not high brow idealism for people who have fancy bikes and showers at work.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/12/ride-ha...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by JAlexoid on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:23PM (#18807926)
Average newyorker isn't a driver, dear. Congestion isn't going to go away in NYC. Mostly because New York wasn't built for this much traffic in the first place... And new bike lanes is a welcome sight in NYC. Based on how much CitiBikes move around the city, you can easily determine that those bike lanes are a welcome change.

But then... I haven't been to a city with a good motor vehicle infrastructure in a long time. Certainly none of the major US cities are designed well to handle even remotely appropriate levels of private motor vehicle use.

PS: I have a car in NYC. Use it for some cases, but would never drive daily in NYC.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:14PM (#18779462)
That works great in countries one can bike across in a day. It’s not really a solution for American commuters. People mainly choose long commutes for housing affordability. When workers can’t afford to live within biking distance of work, then it’s not a viable solution.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:47PM (#18779715)
And why, exactly, can't they afford to live within biking distance from work?

Because 1) You're not allowed to build mixed-use areas thanks to NIMBYs

2) You're not allowed to build high or mid-density areas thanks to NIMBYs

3) You're not allowed to build real bike routes (the kind you'd let your 8 year old cycle to school alone on) because of NIMBYs

4) You could cycle the long distances needed on the road, but the US has made it legal to kill people with your car so long as you're sober, so this is dangerous.

Nobody's driving from NYC to LA for their morning commute. The size of the country is not relevant.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by hermitdev on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:19PM (#18781587)
I commute 25 miles on-way around Chicago. I used to be an avid cyclist and would have loved to bike to work. I don't for a variety of reasons. My current job doesnt have any shower facilities, so I cannot clean up after the ride in. I also have arthritis in my neck & back that makes my head & arms go numb after less than 5 minutes of riding. I would move closer, but that puta me prohibitively far away from my step kids.

The size of the country is relevant; not everything is as dense as LA, NYC, SFC. Chicago being the 3rd largest metro area is also probably one of the least dense. I cannot reasonnnably bike from my home into the Loop. Between shit roads, bad neighborhoods and generally not wanting to die. Not to mention, it is infeasible at least 3 months of the year.

Also, your argument 4 is just wrong and FUD. It is no where legal to just hit a cyclist and kill them. Probably the slightest you will get is negligent vehicular manslaughter, if you are found to be at fault with no other extenuating circumstances. If you are not at fault, you might likely not face charges.

Obviously not dead, but I was the victim where a car ran a stop sign and T-boned while I was on a bike. The driver, who did stop and offer assistance, was ticketed (I think failure to yield right of way, failure to yield to avoid an accident), faced court, around $500 in fines and had to pay my medical costs (about $20k) amd to replace my bike (about $3500). His insurance took most of the brunt, but I was fully compensated for my losses.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by _ph_ on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:50AM (#18782709)
For your arms going numb you should try a recumbent bike. They drastically reduce the stress on the upper body.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:23AM (#18782797)
This a thousand times over! Love my Bacchetta. Cuts through headwinds like butter too!
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ummonk on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:41AM (#18782098)
>4) You could cycle the long distances needed on the road, but the US has made it legal to kill people with your car so long as you're sober, so this is dangerous.

No, the US accepts that traffic accidents happen, and absent irresponsible behavior like drunk driving, drivers should not be held responsible for accidents. When these accidents involve collisions between cars, they're usually simple fender-benders. When similar collisions happen between cars and bicycles, they often lead to serious injury or even death.

It's an extremely dangerous idea to have bicycles and cars travelling side by side in such close proximity with such narrow bicycle lanes. What we need is proper bike lanes with lane separators protecting them from traffic.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:00AM (#18782560)
I think operating your car in a way that kills a cyclist, where there could be cyclists (anywhere not the freeway) should be criminal negligence, not an "accident". Presumed liability laws exist in places that are nice to cycle so drivers know they could face real legal consequences.

I can't go accidentally shooting people on the street and expect just a fine.

Generally people who kill others with their car get off fine, so long as they're sober. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-t...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ummonk on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:19PM (#18784895)
>I can't go accidentally shooting people on the street and expect just a fine.

On the other hand if a gun range built a pathway for people downrange right by the targets, you wouldn't be the one responsible if you accidently shoot someone. It would be the gun range's fault for creating such a dangerous setup in the first place.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:38PM (#18785291)
Very true. The designers of modern roads are culpable for many, many deaths. People were outraged much as we are by school shootings when drivers first started killing people. http://thedollop.libsyn.com/193-when-the-cars-came
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ndnxhs on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:10AM (#18782760)
Agreed. If you are driving in an area where there are bikes or pedestrians around you should slow to about 30km/h.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @06:06AM (#18783086)
If hit at 25 mph people survive 90% of the time. At 50 mph they die 90% of the time. Yet many cities in the US plop 45 mph roads where people live.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by dingaling on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:29PM (#18780340)
It's easy to blame NIMBYism but unless those proposals are actually being brought to planning sessions then it's not really true.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:32PM (#18780357)
You only bring a proposal to a planning session if it's close enough to existing zoning that the variance might be considered reasonable.

Dramatic upzoning is only brought to the table when the NIMBYs are seen as weak enough that it might stand a chance.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ryandrake on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:06PM (#18780529)
Plus, you can’t just go into an area with infrastructure capable of supporting 10k people and Just Add Housing™. What about the electric grid? Water and sewer? Schools, parking, trash pickup, etc. You have to have a plan to update all of these. The simple solution of just building urban apartment blocks everywhere won’t work.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:47PM (#18781681)
We’ve built cities before, we can do it again. Infrastructure is cheaper with economies of scale than in sprawl. Remember, the people you don’t house still exist and live somewhere.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by woah on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:15AM (#18782773)
What a sad perspective. How did anything ever get built in the first place?
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by zozbot123 on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:47PM (#18780819)
>What about the electric grid? Water and sewer? Schools, parking, trash pickup, etc.

Property taxes can pay for these updates once the additional housing is built, it's self-financing. (Of course this won't work in CA, due to Prop 13. But then again, it was a ballot initiative, and those crazy folks in California voted for it. It's all self-inflicted pain on their part.)

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Sunday December 30, 2018 @11:57AM (#18790031)
The usual response here is that existing residents shouldn’t be taxed to pay for later arrivals’ infrastructure needs.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by 0x445442 on Friday December 28, 2018 @09:02PM (#18781247)
Meh... I don't think there would be too many NIMBY complaints in Fresno or Visailia if Facebook and Google decided to put offices over there.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:36PM (#18780039)
People in Southern California routinely commute 50 miles. Expecting your groundskeeper to ride a century on top of his actual job is sick and cruel.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:29PM (#18780343)
1) That's an absurd straw man.

2) Expecting your groundskeeper to drive a century on top of his (or her) actual job is pretty sick and cruel too

3) I'm pleased you mention Southern California as it's a useful case study of how to turn a pleasant area in to a dystopian hellscape. I've lived in Westwood (near UCLA), Santa Monica, and most recently San Diego (South Park - a fairly upscale neighborhood).

I routinely attended meetings of the planning group for South Park, where the attendees, all of whom were homeowners aside from me (and elderly), opposed ANY new housing of ANY sort ANYWHERE. They were blunt about their reasoning - it might hurt their home values. Of course, keeping homes expensive is a great way to ensure your groundskeeper can't live near work.

They also hated bike lanes, because they thought it would affect parking. It's rather sickening they cared more about places for cars to sleep than for people to sleep.

https://www.sandiego.gov/planning/community/profiles/greater... if you care to go yourself. The area's taxpayers will even give you free parking welfare.

Thankfully I escaped SoCal (and the US), but not everyone (including, perhaps, your gardener) is able to do that.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by justtopost on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:13AM (#18782431)
Its almost as if buying and responsibly maintaining your property gave you privlidges.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:27AM (#18782811)
Over your own property, yes, Don't tell me I have to pay for your "free" (aka taxpayer subsidized) on-street parking. Or stop me from turning a lovely old 4 bedroom home in a nice neighbourhood in to two apartments because you want to live on a skidpad.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by epistasis on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:55PM (#18780152)
It says a lot more about your worldview than the original poster's that you jump to assuming a 50 mile bike, rather than the simpler notion that people live close to where they work.

Is it really so shocking to live that close to a gardener? What is outlandish about that?

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:19PM (#18780295)
> Is it really so shocking to live that close to a gardener? What is outlandish about that?

I think it's not that people refuse to live next to a gardener, it's that the job of gardener does not allow for an income that someone could afford to live close by given the housing market. It might not be 50 miles, but there are areas of affluence where it would take awhile for a low-income person to reach. There are also areas of affluence right next to considerably run-down (but famous) areas, such as Hollywood. Then again, I'm not sure how much housing there is in the run-down portions.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Retric on Friday December 28, 2018 @08:40PM (#18781119)
In many areas like DC, poor streets are a few blocks from rich areas. Land is plentiful, and density is cheap. It’s only artificial constraints that cause high housing costs.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by trophycase on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:29PM (#18780344)
Well of course not. That's exactly why the person you are responding to talked about zoning. Without NIMBYs, you could upzone and solve most housing cost issues.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:23PM (#18780634)
Southern California is dense and sprawling. Not very vertically dense, mind you, but I'm not sure there's a lot of existing room for new development without displacing people, and I'm also not sure any new development would lower housing costs enough to support the workforce in question. It would take a massive amount of high-density housing to get costs low in certain areas, and low-cost housing doesn't exactly draw in the developers.

It may have started as NIMBY, but I think natural market forces eventually reinforce it to the degree that NIMBY isn't necessarily the largest factor at play at this point.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Retric on Friday December 28, 2018 @08:42PM (#18781130)
Name one place on Southern California that breaks 25,000 people per square km. It’s all low density.

Manila by comparison is 71,263/km2 in it’s core. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:10PM (#18781540)
Given the 500 square miles of Los Angeles and the 4 million people population, that's about a 60' by 60' plot of land per person. Given that doesn't include roads, highways, industrial or commercial zoning, and that people will group in housing (families), I think that's fairly dense for the type of housing which is currently in place, which is homes homes with yards.

It's not dense relative to other types of metro areas, but I think it's probably fairly dense for single level housing in an industrialized nation.

My point wasn't to imply that Southern California was very densely housed, but that there may not be a huge amount of unutilized land left to build high density housing one, at least not enough to really change the dynamics. And once the conversation shifts from just what to build and where to also who to displace to build it, it's an much harder conversation.

I could be entirely wrong, I don't live in LA, but my impression every time I visit is that there's not a lot of unused land, even if the land that is used isn't used efficiently (population density wise). If that's true, it's not just a NIMBY situation (even if it might have traditionally been one), as it's also a "don't displace historical group X that's been living in this area for decades" situation (whether entirely accurate or not).

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Retric on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:22PM (#18781594)
We have not been limited to single story buildings for thousands of years. Saying this is the kind of housing currently in place really is irrelevant, because that argument would apply to farming communities etc. Instead High density means something and nowhere in California applies which is why housing is expensive.

PS: It’s a question of underutilization, where it would be economically profitable to take each of these buildings down and replace them with more useful structures.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by justtopost on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:16AM (#18782436)
As efficient as it may be, demolishing homes is about as bad an image as you could project. Few with political ambition would touch it with a pole.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:27AM (#18782816)
Demolish the parking.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:31AM (#18782832)
Whwn the vikings settled Dublin they set up some huts along the river.

Therefore the riverfront should be low density huts forever I guess.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:24PM (#18785793)
That has little to do with what I'm saying. I'm not saying development shouldn't happen, I'm saying it won't on any quick timescale because of the existing infrastructure and how people fight to avoid change. All I'm saying is that rezoning to allow different building types won't lead to enough new housing immediately starting, nor even the change a decade from now being sufficient. A lot of things are required to fix the problem, and new zoning is just one of them.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by timerol on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:12PM (#18781551)
The assumption that increasing development leads to displacement is misplaced. Homeowners could turn a single family home into a triplex, adding two new units without displacing anyone. There are also always people trying to sell and move in any housing market. Building new housing leads to less displacement: http://cityobservatory.org/if-you-want-less-displacement-bui...
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by justtopost on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:17AM (#18782439)
As a homeowner, I bought my home so I would not have to live in a goddamn apartment. Its going to be a very tough sell to have me rent to strangers, even with the equity boost. I value my space, therefore real estate is expensive.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:29AM (#18782823)
So.. don't? Not sure what the problem is here.

Out of respect for property rights though, please don't make it illegal for your neighbour to do this to their home should they choose.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:00PM (#18780184)
I specified Southern California. If you’re unfamiliar with the dynamics of the region it makes sense that you think it’s outlandish.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by metildaa on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:43AM (#18782863)
The "dynamics" of SoCal are atrocious, you get the privelege of wasting your life away in traffic to do the simplest things.

Public transit is a bad joke too, the light rail in LA waits for cars to pass at intersections! I've never seen that in other metros, as rail always gets signal priority, but it is a great way to drive away riders...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @06:08AM (#18783091)
We can discuss the practicalites of commuting on the sun, too, if you like.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ed312 on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:21PM (#18779510)
It might also be worth starting to let go of the notion that you need 2000+ sq ft and a 1/4 acre yard as a minimum. Roads are effectively a subsidy to that life style (everyone shouldn't be forced to pay for the life style of a few).
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sbov on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:19PM (#18780296)
I could do without the yard, but I couldn't imagine having much less than what we have now (1962 sq feet). 3 kids (1 a surprise - yay twins for the second pregnancy) plus a home office because I work from home.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by iso1337 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:13AM (#18781996)
Yes, once you are used to that kind of space, it’s hard to go back. Hedonistic treadmill and all (or some kind of treadmill). People in the 60s had larger families with smaller houses. However, to fulfill our expectations of progress, House sizes in America keep growing decade after decade.

I’m fully guilty of this myself too. But like all things it cannot keep growing indefinitely.

http://www.aei.org/publication/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sbov on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:39AM (#18782494)
Your link's lowest datapoint has the average/median square feet per person at 500/550 square feet, back around 1973. I'm at 392 square feet per person. I'm not sure I'm on a hedonistic treadmill, but if it is I'm in a time warp.

Beyond that, the stats in that article are just plain bad because it ignores the fact that not everyone lives in a new house, but it still compares the average household size to ONLY new homes built in that year.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by iso1337 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:00AM (#18782561)
Sorry, I was on mobile and found the first link. But I think the stats aren't as bad as you think. For any given year, you will have some inventory disappear completely. There is also new inventory being built. So, the average house size of all houses is also increasing. Not as much as the average new house size, but definitely increasing. Most people don't live in old houses from the 60s.

I would actually ignore the average household size. We already know that that that decreasing over time.

Note that I didn't intend my comment to be a personal attack on you. I'm merely trying to point out this trend. Apologies if I came off that way. But your case also highlights another fact that was rare back in the day -- using your house as an office is increasingly becoming viable or necessary for those doing remote work.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sbov on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:31AM (#18782648)
Yeah, between smaller households and new houses being built being on average larger, the trend certainly is that we are getting more square feet for less people. I just think the article does a lot of things with the numbers that are questionable.

I didn't take it personally, but I also didn't quite know the best way to respond either. I probably didn't do the best job at it.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:44PM (#18780100)
I don’t think advocating lower standards of living is good persuasion. Also, roads are observably popular, because people desire to both go places and to have things delivered.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by praxulus on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:58PM (#18780169)
Spending an hour in traffic each day is not exactly my idea of a high standard of living.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:01PM (#18780194)
Different people are in different life stages and thus have different preferences.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by mklingen on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:19PM (#18779500)
> When workers can’t afford to live within biking distance of work, then it’s not a viable solution.

This is a catch 22 because the way our cities are designed in America makes them unaffordable. American zoning in most cities prohibits the kind of dense mixed use development that makes low cost housing near work possible. We need to reform the zoning code in most cities and improve bike safety, walkability and public transportation to make headway.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by throwawayjava on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:23PM (#18779962)
Lack of mid-distance transit is also a huge problem.

Mid-sized USA cities tend to have half decent transit around their urban core (often woefully under-served especially in cities that don't have either trains/subways or else dedicated right-of-way for buses, but none-the-less serviceable).

However, the thing that mid-sized cities almost uniformly lack in the US is any form of regional commuter rail.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sulam on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:45PM (#18780432)
We have regional commute rail in the SF Bay Area and in the NYC Metropolitan Region. It doesn't seem to have done much except drive up housing prices near rail stations and create silliness like 5-yr waiting lists for parking at them.

It seems clear that commuter rail is not a silver bullet. Housing density is probably what we really need.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by int_19h on Friday December 28, 2018 @11:51PM (#18781911)
It's both. Rail lets you be more flexible about where to put that density.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by throwawayjava on Sunday December 30, 2018 @11:32AM (#18789889)
Counter-anecdotes: in Chicago (e.g., UP-N), Boston (e.g., Fitchburg), and much of Europe (e.g., many major cities in Germany), the commuter rail systems do take you out into very affordable areas.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by llampx on Sunday December 30, 2018 @01:07PM (#18790445)
I used to commute into SF from Redwood City with the Caltrain. If I couldn't have taken a bike with me on the train, it would have been impossible because the last mile at both ends was completely undoable with local buses.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by leetcrew on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:24PM (#18780650)
I can easily see that it would improve my quality of life a lot if there were a bunch of customer-facing businesses interspersed with housing in a dense city block. I would love to be able to take a quick five minute walk to grab that random tool I need or that last ingredient I need for a recipe; my life could be so much more spontaneous!

I have more trouble seeing where the 500 seat office for a global enterprise should go on my city block. it seems like that sort of space would lead to a dead feeling at night when everyone goes home and the space sits empty.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by razorunreal on Friday December 28, 2018 @09:14PM (#18781302)
Look at big cities around the world and you'll find buildings with retail at the bottom and office space further up. I don't think it would be an issue, unless you stroll around the sky at night.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by llampx on Sunday December 30, 2018 @01:04PM (#18790431)
Come to Berlin or any other major European metropolis to see how that works out. Plenty of bigger office buildings in the middle of the city where lots of people commute to them with bicycles, public transport and even walking. Right next to apartment buildings with small businesses and restaurants and cafes.

Turns out when you don't need to allocate space for 500 cars around a building, you can build it in a single city block and coexist with other types of buildings. And you even get a rooftop with a view as a bonus.