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Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:14PM (#18779462)
That works great in countries one can bike across in a day. It’s not really a solution for American commuters. People mainly choose long commutes for housing affordability. When workers can’t afford to live within biking distance of work, then it’s not a viable solution.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:47PM (#18779715)
And why, exactly, can't they afford to live within biking distance from work?

Because 1) You're not allowed to build mixed-use areas thanks to NIMBYs

2) You're not allowed to build high or mid-density areas thanks to NIMBYs

3) You're not allowed to build real bike routes (the kind you'd let your 8 year old cycle to school alone on) because of NIMBYs

4) You could cycle the long distances needed on the road, but the US has made it legal to kill people with your car so long as you're sober, so this is dangerous.

Nobody's driving from NYC to LA for their morning commute. The size of the country is not relevant.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by hermitdev on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:19PM (#18781587)
I commute 25 miles on-way around Chicago. I used to be an avid cyclist and would have loved to bike to work. I don't for a variety of reasons. My current job doesnt have any shower facilities, so I cannot clean up after the ride in. I also have arthritis in my neck & back that makes my head & arms go numb after less than 5 minutes of riding. I would move closer, but that puta me prohibitively far away from my step kids.

The size of the country is relevant; not everything is as dense as LA, NYC, SFC. Chicago being the 3rd largest metro area is also probably one of the least dense. I cannot reasonnnably bike from my home into the Loop. Between shit roads, bad neighborhoods and generally not wanting to die. Not to mention, it is infeasible at least 3 months of the year.

Also, your argument 4 is just wrong and FUD. It is no where legal to just hit a cyclist and kill them. Probably the slightest you will get is negligent vehicular manslaughter, if you are found to be at fault with no other extenuating circumstances. If you are not at fault, you might likely not face charges.

Obviously not dead, but I was the victim where a car ran a stop sign and T-boned while I was on a bike. The driver, who did stop and offer assistance, was ticketed (I think failure to yield right of way, failure to yield to avoid an accident), faced court, around $500 in fines and had to pay my medical costs (about $20k) amd to replace my bike (about $3500). His insurance took most of the brunt, but I was fully compensated for my losses.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by _ph_ on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:50AM (#18782709)
For your arms going numb you should try a recumbent bike. They drastically reduce the stress on the upper body.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:23AM (#18782797)
This a thousand times over! Love my Bacchetta. Cuts through headwinds like butter too!
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ummonk on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:41AM (#18782098)
>4) You could cycle the long distances needed on the road, but the US has made it legal to kill people with your car so long as you're sober, so this is dangerous.

No, the US accepts that traffic accidents happen, and absent irresponsible behavior like drunk driving, drivers should not be held responsible for accidents. When these accidents involve collisions between cars, they're usually simple fender-benders. When similar collisions happen between cars and bicycles, they often lead to serious injury or even death.

It's an extremely dangerous idea to have bicycles and cars travelling side by side in such close proximity with such narrow bicycle lanes. What we need is proper bike lanes with lane separators protecting them from traffic.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:00AM (#18782560)
I think operating your car in a way that kills a cyclist, where there could be cyclists (anywhere not the freeway) should be criminal negligence, not an "accident". Presumed liability laws exist in places that are nice to cycle so drivers know they could face real legal consequences.

I can't go accidentally shooting people on the street and expect just a fine.

Generally people who kill others with their car get off fine, so long as they're sober. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-t...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ummonk on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:19PM (#18784895)
>I can't go accidentally shooting people on the street and expect just a fine.

On the other hand if a gun range built a pathway for people downrange right by the targets, you wouldn't be the one responsible if you accidently shoot someone. It would be the gun range's fault for creating such a dangerous setup in the first place.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:38PM (#18785291)
Very true. The designers of modern roads are culpable for many, many deaths. People were outraged much as we are by school shootings when drivers first started killing people. http://thedollop.libsyn.com/193-when-the-cars-came
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ndnxhs on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:10AM (#18782760)
Agreed. If you are driving in an area where there are bikes or pedestrians around you should slow to about 30km/h.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @06:06AM (#18783086)
If hit at 25 mph people survive 90% of the time. At 50 mph they die 90% of the time. Yet many cities in the US plop 45 mph roads where people live.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by dingaling on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:29PM (#18780340)
It's easy to blame NIMBYism but unless those proposals are actually being brought to planning sessions then it's not really true.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:32PM (#18780357)
You only bring a proposal to a planning session if it's close enough to existing zoning that the variance might be considered reasonable.

Dramatic upzoning is only brought to the table when the NIMBYs are seen as weak enough that it might stand a chance.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ryandrake on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:06PM (#18780529)
Plus, you can’t just go into an area with infrastructure capable of supporting 10k people and Just Add Housing™. What about the electric grid? Water and sewer? Schools, parking, trash pickup, etc. You have to have a plan to update all of these. The simple solution of just building urban apartment blocks everywhere won’t work.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:47PM (#18781681)
We’ve built cities before, we can do it again. Infrastructure is cheaper with economies of scale than in sprawl. Remember, the people you don’t house still exist and live somewhere.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by woah on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:15AM (#18782773)
What a sad perspective. How did anything ever get built in the first place?
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by zozbot123 on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:47PM (#18780819)
>What about the electric grid? Water and sewer? Schools, parking, trash pickup, etc.

Property taxes can pay for these updates once the additional housing is built, it's self-financing. (Of course this won't work in CA, due to Prop 13. But then again, it was a ballot initiative, and those crazy folks in California voted for it. It's all self-inflicted pain on their part.)

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by closeparen on Sunday December 30, 2018 @11:57AM (#18790031)
The usual response here is that existing residents shouldn’t be taxed to pay for later arrivals’ infrastructure needs.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by 0x445442 on Friday December 28, 2018 @09:02PM (#18781247)
Meh... I don't think there would be too many NIMBY complaints in Fresno or Visailia if Facebook and Google decided to put offices over there.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:36PM (#18780039)
People in Southern California routinely commute 50 miles. Expecting your groundskeeper to ride a century on top of his actual job is sick and cruel.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:29PM (#18780343)
1) That's an absurd straw man.

2) Expecting your groundskeeper to drive a century on top of his (or her) actual job is pretty sick and cruel too

3) I'm pleased you mention Southern California as it's a useful case study of how to turn a pleasant area in to a dystopian hellscape. I've lived in Westwood (near UCLA), Santa Monica, and most recently San Diego (South Park - a fairly upscale neighborhood).

I routinely attended meetings of the planning group for South Park, where the attendees, all of whom were homeowners aside from me (and elderly), opposed ANY new housing of ANY sort ANYWHERE. They were blunt about their reasoning - it might hurt their home values. Of course, keeping homes expensive is a great way to ensure your groundskeeper can't live near work.

They also hated bike lanes, because they thought it would affect parking. It's rather sickening they cared more about places for cars to sleep than for people to sleep.

https://www.sandiego.gov/planning/community/profiles/greater... if you care to go yourself. The area's taxpayers will even give you free parking welfare.

Thankfully I escaped SoCal (and the US), but not everyone (including, perhaps, your gardener) is able to do that.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by justtopost on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:13AM (#18782431)
Its almost as if buying and responsibly maintaining your property gave you privlidges.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:27AM (#18782811)
Over your own property, yes, Don't tell me I have to pay for your "free" (aka taxpayer subsidized) on-street parking. Or stop me from turning a lovely old 4 bedroom home in a nice neighbourhood in to two apartments because you want to live on a skidpad.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by epistasis on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:55PM (#18780152)
It says a lot more about your worldview than the original poster's that you jump to assuming a 50 mile bike, rather than the simpler notion that people live close to where they work.

Is it really so shocking to live that close to a gardener? What is outlandish about that?

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:19PM (#18780295)
> Is it really so shocking to live that close to a gardener? What is outlandish about that?

I think it's not that people refuse to live next to a gardener, it's that the job of gardener does not allow for an income that someone could afford to live close by given the housing market. It might not be 50 miles, but there are areas of affluence where it would take awhile for a low-income person to reach. There are also areas of affluence right next to considerably run-down (but famous) areas, such as Hollywood. Then again, I'm not sure how much housing there is in the run-down portions.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Retric on Friday December 28, 2018 @08:40PM (#18781119)
In many areas like DC, poor streets are a few blocks from rich areas. Land is plentiful, and density is cheap. It’s only artificial constraints that cause high housing costs.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by trophycase on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:29PM (#18780344)
Well of course not. That's exactly why the person you are responding to talked about zoning. Without NIMBYs, you could upzone and solve most housing cost issues.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:23PM (#18780634)
Southern California is dense and sprawling. Not very vertically dense, mind you, but I'm not sure there's a lot of existing room for new development without displacing people, and I'm also not sure any new development would lower housing costs enough to support the workforce in question. It would take a massive amount of high-density housing to get costs low in certain areas, and low-cost housing doesn't exactly draw in the developers.

It may have started as NIMBY, but I think natural market forces eventually reinforce it to the degree that NIMBY isn't necessarily the largest factor at play at this point.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Retric on Friday December 28, 2018 @08:42PM (#18781130)
Name one place on Southern California that breaks 25,000 people per square km. It’s all low density.

Manila by comparison is 71,263/km2 in it’s core. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:10PM (#18781540)
Given the 500 square miles of Los Angeles and the 4 million people population, that's about a 60' by 60' plot of land per person. Given that doesn't include roads, highways, industrial or commercial zoning, and that people will group in housing (families), I think that's fairly dense for the type of housing which is currently in place, which is homes homes with yards.

It's not dense relative to other types of metro areas, but I think it's probably fairly dense for single level housing in an industrialized nation.

My point wasn't to imply that Southern California was very densely housed, but that there may not be a huge amount of unutilized land left to build high density housing one, at least not enough to really change the dynamics. And once the conversation shifts from just what to build and where to also who to displace to build it, it's an much harder conversation.

I could be entirely wrong, I don't live in LA, but my impression every time I visit is that there's not a lot of unused land, even if the land that is used isn't used efficiently (population density wise). If that's true, it's not just a NIMBY situation (even if it might have traditionally been one), as it's also a "don't displace historical group X that's been living in this area for decades" situation (whether entirely accurate or not).

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by Retric on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:22PM (#18781594)
We have not been limited to single story buildings for thousands of years. Saying this is the kind of housing currently in place really is irrelevant, because that argument would apply to farming communities etc. Instead High density means something and nowhere in California applies which is why housing is expensive.

PS: It’s a question of underutilization, where it would be economically profitable to take each of these buildings down and replace them with more useful structures.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by justtopost on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:16AM (#18782436)
As efficient as it may be, demolishing homes is about as bad an image as you could project. Few with political ambition would touch it with a pole.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:27AM (#18782816)
Demolish the parking.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:31AM (#18782832)
Whwn the vikings settled Dublin they set up some huts along the river.

Therefore the riverfront should be low density huts forever I guess.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by kbenson on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:24PM (#18785793)
That has little to do with what I'm saying. I'm not saying development shouldn't happen, I'm saying it won't on any quick timescale because of the existing infrastructure and how people fight to avoid change. All I'm saying is that rezoning to allow different building types won't lead to enough new housing immediately starting, nor even the change a decade from now being sufficient. A lot of things are required to fix the problem, and new zoning is just one of them.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by timerol on Friday December 28, 2018 @10:12PM (#18781551)
The assumption that increasing development leads to displacement is misplaced. Homeowners could turn a single family home into a triplex, adding two new units without displacing anyone. There are also always people trying to sell and move in any housing market. Building new housing leads to less displacement: http://cityobservatory.org/if-you-want-less-displacement-bui...
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by justtopost on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:17AM (#18782439)
As a homeowner, I bought my home so I would not have to live in a goddamn apartment. Its going to be a very tough sell to have me rent to strangers, even with the equity boost. I value my space, therefore real estate is expensive.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:29AM (#18782823)
So.. don't? Not sure what the problem is here.

Out of respect for property rights though, please don't make it illegal for your neighbour to do this to their home should they choose.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:00PM (#18780184)
I specified Southern California. If you’re unfamiliar with the dynamics of the region it makes sense that you think it’s outlandish.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by metildaa on Saturday December 29, 2018 @04:43AM (#18782863)
The "dynamics" of SoCal are atrocious, you get the privelege of wasting your life away in traffic to do the simplest things.

Public transit is a bad joke too, the light rail in LA waits for cars to pass at intersections! I've never seen that in other metros, as rail always gets signal priority, but it is a great way to drive away riders...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by CalRobert on Saturday December 29, 2018 @06:08AM (#18783091)
We can discuss the practicalites of commuting on the sun, too, if you like.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by ed312 on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:21PM (#18779510)
It might also be worth starting to let go of the notion that you need 2000+ sq ft and a 1/4 acre yard as a minimum. Roads are effectively a subsidy to that life style (everyone shouldn't be forced to pay for the life style of a few).
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sbov on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:19PM (#18780296)
I could do without the yard, but I couldn't imagine having much less than what we have now (1962 sq feet). 3 kids (1 a surprise - yay twins for the second pregnancy) plus a home office because I work from home.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by iso1337 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:13AM (#18781996)
Yes, once you are used to that kind of space, it’s hard to go back. Hedonistic treadmill and all (or some kind of treadmill). People in the 60s had larger families with smaller houses. However, to fulfill our expectations of progress, House sizes in America keep growing decade after decade.

I’m fully guilty of this myself too. But like all things it cannot keep growing indefinitely.

http://www.aei.org/publication/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sbov on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:39AM (#18782494)
Your link's lowest datapoint has the average/median square feet per person at 500/550 square feet, back around 1973. I'm at 392 square feet per person. I'm not sure I'm on a hedonistic treadmill, but if it is I'm in a time warp.

Beyond that, the stats in that article are just plain bad because it ignores the fact that not everyone lives in a new house, but it still compares the average household size to ONLY new homes built in that year.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by iso1337 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:00AM (#18782561)
Sorry, I was on mobile and found the first link. But I think the stats aren't as bad as you think. For any given year, you will have some inventory disappear completely. There is also new inventory being built. So, the average house size of all houses is also increasing. Not as much as the average new house size, but definitely increasing. Most people don't live in old houses from the 60s.

I would actually ignore the average household size. We already know that that that decreasing over time.

Note that I didn't intend my comment to be a personal attack on you. I'm merely trying to point out this trend. Apologies if I came off that way. But your case also highlights another fact that was rare back in the day -- using your house as an office is increasingly becoming viable or necessary for those doing remote work.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sbov on Saturday December 29, 2018 @03:31AM (#18782648)
Yeah, between smaller households and new houses being built being on average larger, the trend certainly is that we are getting more square feet for less people. I just think the article does a lot of things with the numbers that are questionable.

I didn't take it personally, but I also didn't quite know the best way to respond either. I probably didn't do the best job at it.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:44PM (#18780100)
I don’t think advocating lower standards of living is good persuasion. Also, roads are observably popular, because people desire to both go places and to have things delivered.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by praxulus on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:58PM (#18780169)
Spending an hour in traffic each day is not exactly my idea of a high standard of living.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by User23 on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:01PM (#18780194)
Different people are in different life stages and thus have different preferences.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by mklingen on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:19PM (#18779500)
> When workers can’t afford to live within biking distance of work, then it’s not a viable solution.

This is a catch 22 because the way our cities are designed in America makes them unaffordable. American zoning in most cities prohibits the kind of dense mixed use development that makes low cost housing near work possible. We need to reform the zoning code in most cities and improve bike safety, walkability and public transportation to make headway.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by throwawayjava on Friday December 28, 2018 @05:23PM (#18779962)
Lack of mid-distance transit is also a huge problem.

Mid-sized USA cities tend to have half decent transit around their urban core (often woefully under-served especially in cities that don't have either trains/subways or else dedicated right-of-way for buses, but none-the-less serviceable).

However, the thing that mid-sized cities almost uniformly lack in the US is any form of regional commuter rail.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by sulam on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:45PM (#18780432)
We have regional commute rail in the SF Bay Area and in the NYC Metropolitan Region. It doesn't seem to have done much except drive up housing prices near rail stations and create silliness like 5-yr waiting lists for parking at them.

It seems clear that commuter rail is not a silver bullet. Housing density is probably what we really need.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by int_19h on Friday December 28, 2018 @11:51PM (#18781911)
It's both. Rail lets you be more flexible about where to put that density.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by throwawayjava on Sunday December 30, 2018 @11:32AM (#18789889)
Counter-anecdotes: in Chicago (e.g., UP-N), Boston (e.g., Fitchburg), and much of Europe (e.g., many major cities in Germany), the commuter rail systems do take you out into very affordable areas.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by llampx on Sunday December 30, 2018 @01:07PM (#18790445)
I used to commute into SF from Redwood City with the Caltrain. If I couldn't have taken a bike with me on the train, it would have been impossible because the last mile at both ends was completely undoable with local buses.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by leetcrew on Friday December 28, 2018 @07:24PM (#18780650)
I can easily see that it would improve my quality of life a lot if there were a bunch of customer-facing businesses interspersed with housing in a dense city block. I would love to be able to take a quick five minute walk to grab that random tool I need or that last ingredient I need for a recipe; my life could be so much more spontaneous!

I have more trouble seeing where the 500 seat office for a global enterprise should go on my city block. it seems like that sort of space would lead to a dead feeling at night when everyone goes home and the space sits empty.

Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by razorunreal on Friday December 28, 2018 @09:14PM (#18781302)
Look at big cities around the world and you'll find buildings with retail at the bottom and office space further up. I don't think it would be an issue, unless you stroll around the sky at night.
Re:Fundamental rule of traffic: building new roads makes peo... by llampx on Sunday December 30, 2018 @01:04PM (#18790431)
Come to Berlin or any other major European metropolis to see how that works out. Plenty of bigger office buildings in the middle of the city where lots of people commute to them with bicycles, public transport and even walking. Right next to apartment buildings with small businesses and restaurants and cafes.

Turns out when you don't need to allocate space for 500 cars around a building, you can build it in a single city block and coexist with other types of buildings. And you even get a rooftop with a view as a bonus.