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Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by marsrover on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:19PM (#18720361)
Pretty interesting. I bet if you took that same group and said Facebook now costs 1000 a year to use they would all quit.

It’s easier to spend money that wasn’t in your wallet in the first place. It’s when you start taking it out of the wallet that people react.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by Tomminn on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:04PM (#18720781)
I suspect it'd depend entirely on whether facebook costs everybody $1000/year, or just them.

If facebook costed everybody $1000/year, I would definitely stop using it, because the network would be immediately broken since everybody would know everybody with any sense would stop using it.

If facebook only costed only me $1000/year, I would know the network was still intact, and I would consider it.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by ineedasername on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @08:32PM (#18721777)
I think if facebook started charging me, and only me, any price I would say "What the heck is this? Why only me?" and rage quit facebook.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by rhacker on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @09:53PM (#18722131)
It's more of a thought exercise because he was making a point that people would expect all users would disappear if there was suddenly a fee like that (for everyone), which, invariably would affect how much the product is worth to them. That's why this only works backwards - asking people to quit for a reward.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by close04 on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:46AM (#18723603)
If everybody has to pay $1000 a part of your network will disappear due to not having the sum available regardless of the value of the service.

Then everybody else would have to decide if the rest of the network still provides value to them, so a few more would disappear. At some point you'd reach an equilibrium where either a small portion of the original network is happy with what they still have for the money, or the whole network collapses.

It doesn't feel like people would quit because of the expectation that "everybody with any sense would stop using it". You could already say that now about FB, and you could definitely say it for many other products. Yet they are still used.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by lloeki on Thursday December 20, 2018 @08:53AM (#18724850)
I also think that if Facebook started charging everybody any price (like $10/year, or even $1/year), many people (not all of them obviously) would definitely stop using it, and then the network would be immediately broken because of that, as its value would quickly spiral down since the current value proposition of Facebook as a user is that perceptually basically everyone and their dog is on Facebook.

This question (can Facebook charge people to use its service?) is fundamentally vastly different from the one in the article, which basically is: can someone kill Facebook by buying enough people out of using it?

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by palerdot on Thursday December 20, 2018 @07:29AM (#18724335)
Now is not a bad time to rage quit Facebook either.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by quickthrower2 on Thursday December 20, 2018 @09:35AM (#18725177)
I quit, but no rage required. Just boredom.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by everdev on Thursday December 20, 2018 @02:20AM (#18723076)
The latter is a true hypothetical as US law prevents charging different rates to different users for the exact same product/service.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by btgeekboy on Thursday December 20, 2018 @03:37AM (#18723344)
It does? There's quite a few counterexamples to that, such as airline fares, cars, etc.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by everdev on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:48AM (#18725871)
The example above is Facebook charging a single person $1k/year while not charging other people. That's called price discrimination: https://econsultancy.com/what-is-price-discrimination-and-is...

It would be a slam dunk lawsuit.

You can still offer discounts (airline tickets, Adobe, etc.) or negotiate pricing (cars, etc.) legally.

But, it is illegal to isolate someone and charge them more without justification as in OC's example.

So yes, Facebook charging a single person $1k/year is a true hypothetical. It couldn't happen legally in the US.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by isostatic on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:48AM (#18723853)
Different customers get different discounts on all sorts of goods and services, reflecting the various importance of the customer, difficulty of dealing with them, etc. We get an x% discount off list on Cisco network kit, I assume that others get y% or z%.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by everdev on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:53AM (#18725921)
Yes, but it matters who gets those discounts. If you took a prior action to earn the discount no problem. If it's assigned randomly, no problem.

If Costco charges $1k for a bagel and gives it away to everyone for free except insists on you paying, that's a problem. You're not allowed to isolate discounts based on race, gender, etc. So Costco would have to have a pretty creative reason for making you pay and no one else. It wouldn't hold up in court and it would be price discrimination.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by owens99 on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:12AM (#18723466)
Can you show evidence of this? What about airline tickets?
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by TimCinel on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:16AM (#18723740)
No it doesn't.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by everdev on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:41AM (#18725798)
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by solarkraft on Thursday December 20, 2018 @07:26AM (#18724310)
Then Adobe has a huge legal problem.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by inetknght on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:48PM (#18721149)
Frankly, I do not understand your logic.

If it costs everyone $1000, there will be many many many people who cannot afford that.

If it costs only me $1000, I'd stop using it because... well I already stopped using it so I did it for free actually.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by SkyPuncher on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:02PM (#18721238)
First case, that's the point. Nobody would use it so everybody would move onto something else.

Second case, being the only one out (i.e. the black sheep) means you might consider paying for it to not stand out.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:16AM (#18723483)
A roundabout way of saying "I don't use Facebook so I'm better than you"
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by daveFNbuck on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:06PM (#18721264)
The logic is that Facebook is currently worth $1000 but would be worth much less because of the many people who would stop using it if it had that cost.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by mcbits on Thursday December 20, 2018 @01:00AM (#18722806)
Similar logic also works the other way. If someone really offered all Facebook users $1000 to quit for a year, almost everyone would quit because even those who currently value it above $1000 know that it won't be worth that much after most of their network quits. The actual cost to get, say, 50% of users to quit is probably much less than $1000 apiece.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by vezycash on Thursday December 20, 2018 @03:36AM (#18723336)
Does paying addicts to stop smoking work? If that doesn't then the same will apply here.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by notatcomputer68 on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:05AM (#18723443)
First yes I think it does. Second this is more like paying people not to smoke a particular brand - they could change to another.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by vezycash on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:35AM (#18723553)
I'll need some proof of your claim. It makes no sense to me. Cos the intuitive thing is for addicts to use that money for binge smoking.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by palunon on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:05AM (#18723698)
Huh, nicotine dependency doesn't really work like that. Most smokers don't spend all their money on cigarettes, and go on smoking binges when they have more money...

Source: I smoke, and about half the people I know do too.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by inetknght on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @10:12PM (#18722204)
Oh, now that makes sense. Thanks.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by gph1234 on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:28PM (#18720449)
You just described Loss Aversion perfectly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by hinkley on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @08:03PM (#18721627)
Thinking the same thing, but then I realized that if the topic is "how do you get people off of Facebook" then loss aversion is exactly what you're fighting against.

They lost their privacy without thinking about it, but giving up Facebook would require a conscious act. So now they're thinking about loss, and that causes feelings.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by VLM on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:29PM (#18720993)
The first problem is I thought it was "widely accepted" that FB use was a typical power law distribution where a small fraction of users, use it the most. Kinda like drinking alcohol or income inequality stats or heroin use stats. Something that works and means something for well distributed random collections like an average SD or median is meaningless when talking about numerically integrating a power law function to determine a total value.

The second problem is I read the entire paper and as per problem #1 above, because its an extreme power law distribution, in "Auction 2 results" the average bid to give up FB was an insane $2076 but the SD is over eight thousand dollars and the 50% median was a mere $200.

The third problem is, I admit I don't use FB, but my understanding from my wife is if you disable your account for a day, you're really measuring the cost of time-shifting a days worth of content forward a day. They were not really measuring giving up FB for a day in the shorter samples (see discussion of Auction 1 results) they were measuring the cost of chronologically messing up the UI for one day, or something like that in concept. Its like arguing if I bought the new edition of "Refactoring" using amazon prime the 2 day delivery was worth $40 or whatever the book cost whereas in reality I don't really care about the shipping cost on 2-day vs media mail shipping, kinda.

The forth killer problem is the market is too weak and thin. Lots of brain power goes into evaluating the correct price for one share of GE or CAT or IBM. As such the price has a certain meaning and validation and use in the real world. No brain power goes into calculating the price of viewing a sunset or temporarily deactivating a FB account and as such a measurement merely measures random numbers and can't be used in the real world for any purpose, comparative or otherwise. In theory a widely popular and intensely studied marketplace of the cost of viewing a sunset or deactivating a FB account COULD exist, but since it doesn't, its just kinda a measure of random numbers mixed with how much money I feel I should get for a days minor annoyance, like a wifi or mobile phone outage. Some numbers from Auction 1 Results are creepily similar to "how much of a credit should I get for an internet outage", or "What is a fair per-diem reimbursement for a cheap company", not a specifically FB related cost.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by hinkley on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @08:32PM (#18721774)
That line bugs me too. We're mixing figures of speech with statistics and that always always goes sideways (sometimes it looks like chicanery). What does it mean to get the 'average person' to quit? Half of people are still on FB? Almost nobody is still on FB? Average height makes sense, because it's a continuum. How do you average discontinuous values? What's the average gender of Americans?

If I'm reading the same data they are, the median price is $730. Which means if you offered everybody $730 half of them would quit. A few of those people would be really happy because all they wanted was $100.

If you were a deranged billionaire and you decided to burn Facebook, you might be able to get half of them to quit at an average of $400 apiece. But even that doesn't make sense because people are people. If my neighbor already got a check for $900 what are you doing giving me this check for $450? I want $900, same as him. Practically, you'd just have to cut checks for $730 and offer everyone the same amount, which means $1000 isn't a real number either. Because I'm sure as hell not gonna take $450 if my buddy knows the guy who got $5000. So it's $1000 checks and you get 65% of people to quit.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by olivierduval on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:21PM (#18720374)
Exactly... enough is to see how people react to the simple idea of "paying" for FB, even 1$ I guess the study is funded by FB toward the investors... :-D
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by tefferon on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:37PM (#18720532)
now that would be an interesting study
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by TheRealPomax on Thursday December 20, 2018 @12:40AM (#18722754)
I don't quite understand how that suggestion translates to a useful metric in terms of what is a reasonable estimate of the "real" market value of Facebook inc. is, though? (insofar as we can of course talk about "real" values).

This was not an investigation into "how much do you need to pay people to quit" (if it was, their methodology would have been _highly_ flawed).

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by jancsika on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @11:27PM (#18722511)
> I bet if you took that same group and said Facebook now costs 1000 a year to use they would all quit.

10 cigarettes a day * 30 days / 20 cigarettes in a pack = 15

15 packs a month * $6 per pack = $90 per month

$1000 a year / 12 months in a year= $83

Keeping in mind that each individual cigarette doesn't even have any event listeners hooked up to it to gather usage data...

Yeah, I'd take that bet.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by Izkata on Thursday December 20, 2018 @01:41PM (#18727713)
As the video game world learned, you're not comparing the same thing. Microtransactions that add up to $1000 is very different than a lump sum once per year.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by alanlamm on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @11:47PM (#18722583)
Hmm cigarettes with analytics...
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by tonyedgecombe on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:19AM (#18723754)
You could give them away for free and make it up by selling adverts for chemo.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by cstrat on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @11:34PM (#18722536)
If you're in Australia those packs will cost $40 each in 2020.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:45PM (#18720605)
I'm not sure why they didn't just ask this question directly?

Both scenarios are hypothetical, as no one is being actually paid to quit Facebook. So, why not make the hypothetical scenario: "Using Facebook now costs $X per month; how high does X need to be before you quit?"

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by ianferrel on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:46PM (#18720619)
The experiment reported in the paper isn't hypothetical.

They actually paid people to deactivate their Facebook accounts.

Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by arbol on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:18AM (#18723494)
Did they only pay people who make money from Facebook? This wasn't clear to me... 1000 USD seems like a hell of a lot of money for an average user to require.
Re:Estimating Value of Facebook by Paying Users to Stop Usin... by stcredzero on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @05:35PM (#18720519)
It’s easier to spend money that wasn’t in your wallet in the first place. It’s when you start taking it out of the wallet that people react.

Seems to me that there's an application of this idea to early stage startups.