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Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by icebraining on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:44AM (#18601039)
Welcome to 2009, I guess

"Today we're helping people get better search results by extending Personalized Search to signed-out users worldwide (...)"

https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/personalized-search-...

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by Bartweiss on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:07PM (#18603610)
I don't think this DuckDuckGo being sloppy, just The Verge. The real headline here is that the effect extends to Incognito mode.

In the 2009 post, Google said:

> ...customize search results for you based upon 180 days of search activity linked to an anonymous cookie in your browser... You'll know when we customize results because a "View customizations" link will appear... Clicking the link will let you... turn off this type of customization

None of that appears to be match the study results here. Incognito mode isn't supposed to pick up session cookies from normal browsing, no customization notice appears, and an option to turn the behavior off certainly isn't provided.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by xvector on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:32PM (#18603770)
Honestly, Google is almost certainly using canvas fingerprinting to track you across accounts, webpages, and more regardless of incognito.

There should be zero expectation of privacy when using a Google service. I've switched to searx.me, which wraps Google and (optionally) a bunch of other search engines.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by esrauch on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:44PM (#18603852)
Do you have a citation that they do canvas fingerprinting or are you just guessing?
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by mda on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:59AM (#18606218)
They don't. But welcome to HN Where conspiracy is more prevalent then truth.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by doctorpangloss on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:31AM (#18606335)
I don’t know dude, it would take Google the whole of 5 minutes to publish how they track people. It’s not like they haven’t already prepared a contingency eg for congress.

You’re being really flippant about speculation, which is a total red herring. The point is they’re not honest.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by mda on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @04:45AM (#18606897)
You mean they don't already explain it? Please.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by GunlogAlm on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:39PM (#18604200)
Probably not, hence "almost certainly".
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by newsbinator on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:16PM (#18605649)
Unfortunately: "How canvas fingerprint blockers make you easily trackable"

https://multilogin.com/how-canvas-fingerprint-blockers-make-...

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by dwd on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:55AM (#18606207)
Found this with Firefox Focus.

Using a minority browser with a lot of stuff blocked makes you very unique.

It's good for blocking 3rd party cookies but you stand out like a sore thumb to Google.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by sizzle on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:06AM (#18605809)
Is there a chrome extension or easy way to randomize canvas properties programmatically to avoid canvas fingerprinting when opening a new chrome tab?

Canvas fingerprinting is highly concerning to say the least, thanks in advance to anyone with working solutions.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by pgeorgi on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:23PM (#18604124)
> Google is almost certainly using canvas fingerprinting

Since that's a client side mechanism it should be rather simple to find out, no? (eg. an addon that injects tracking into the DOM accessors necessary to get at the canvas)

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by vxNsr on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:53PM (#18605780)
wow, we took that instance down: but here is their stat list if people still wanna try the service.

https://stats.searx.xyz/

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by harshvladha on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:45PM (#18601703)
There's a difference between Signed out, and Incognito (no cookies)!

+ People generally tend to miss the point that Incognito doesn't prevent sharing the IP of the user.

+ I think DuckDuckGo's study missed out using VPN in their analysis. i.e., SignedIn vs Incognito vs (Incognito+VPN)

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by Bartweiss on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:21PM (#18604112)
The "even in Incognito" part of this is certainly the biggest result I see. And I agree on the study limitation; attempting to clean up localization effects after the fact doesn't feel like a strong fix. It should be possible to isolate device and location effects by using multiple devices in one location, then VPN-ing one device to multiple 'locations'.

One thing that caught my eye was Google's response about Incognito:

> The company did confirm that it does not personalize results for incognito searches using signed-in search history, and it also confirmed that it does not personalize results for the Top Stories row or the News tab in search.

Since it's a corporate reply, the standard question is what's not present: a statement that Incognito isn't personalized, or isn't personalized beyond device type and location. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but "we don't personalize using X" parses as "we do personalize in other ways".

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by nl on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:15PM (#18604387)
it does not personalize results for incognito searches using signed-in search history

To me this sounds reasonable. A very large number of searches are locality based, and it is entirely reasonable to localize them based on IP address (and - as you note - the device type).

It's also reasonable to customize based on recent (session based) search history (refinements, spelling corrections, etc).

The difference between this and personalization seems mostly about semantics IMHO.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by Marsymars on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:57PM (#18605789)
> To me this sounds reasonable. A very large number of searches are locality based, and it is entirely reasonable to localize them based on IP address (and - as you note - the device type).

I wish this was trivial to disable. I regularly search for things where I want the global result, and instead get weird local results that I don't care about. It's much easier to narrow a global search to a local one by adding an appropriate region name to the search than it is to expand a local search to a global one via search terms.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by Bartweiss on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:36PM (#18610456)
Overall I agree with this, I definitely see why Googlers are frustrated at having all of this framed as 'personalization'.

But broadly, I see three bases for objecting to these changes.

First is the lack of user control. Like many other people in this thread I often want to turn off or 'rehome' localization, not just for weird developer use cases but for obvious stuff like "I'm about to travel and want results for that location". Disabling session-based changes is a rarer desire, but comes up sometimes when a correction or topic change is interpreted as a refinement that's biasing results. Fortunately, resetting Incognito should manage that. (I've never actually wanted to bypass device type adjustments except for dev work.)

Second is inadvertent bubbles. It's easy to imagine content-neutral rules like "show fast and mobile-friendly pages to smartphones" correlating with a meaningful content difference, and the same for location. Hard to really blame Google here, but again it'd be really nice to have the option of a "stop helping" setting.

Third is Google-driven bubbles. Some of the DuckDuckGo examples showed effects like national newspaper articles on a search for 'immigration' getting reordered, or pushing above and below non-news sources. (We can't know if that was caused by location or device type, but let's look at the case where it was.) That doesn't look like basic localization, it looks like non-local results being adjusted based on user location.

This wouldn't have to be anything purposeful; if you add location into your training set and reinforce on the usual 'success' metrics (e.g. first result clicked, final result clicked), you could easily learn that people in NYC and Houston have different behavior patterns and display accordingly. It's open to debate whether this is a bad thing, but it's certainly not what most people (including the Googler who responded to the article) mean when they say "localization".

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by frandroid on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:13PM (#18604372)
Google definitely personalizes based on geoIP location, that's not exactly a secret.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by garysahota93 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:30PM (#18604477)
It's not a secret, but I don't think we're doing enough to keep this on the forefront of people's minds. Every time I hear this, I am shocked! Only to then remember I already knew this but somehow let it slide...
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by singingboyo on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @06:48PM (#18604572)
I mean, what's the difference between this and customizing billboard ads based on where the billboard is?

IMO the issue is not google using IP-based location info. The issue (if there really is one) is people assuming/believing the internet hides their location.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by garysahota93 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @08:01PM (#18604922)
hmm, that's a very interesting point. I guess that famous saying of "if you're not paying, then YOU are the product" kinda falls into play here, huh?
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by Kalium on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:12PM (#18602693)
> There's a difference between Signed out, and Incognito (no cookies)!

Is there? I was under the impression that Incognito and its cousins generally still accept and preserve cookies for the duration of the temporary session. This means that for this purpose, there isn't really a difference.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by gfo on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:25PM (#18602830)
Incognito is supposed to give you a completely clean session that doesn't carry over the cache, cookies, etc. from your normal browsing context.

In this study, my understanding is that result personalization carried over from a normal browsing session into the clean, Incognito session, likely due to IP correlation or possibly through User-Agent strings. So while Incognito has its own context that is wiped once the session has ended, the result personalization didn't need anything saved in the browser to recognize who you are.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by grawprog on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @03:33PM (#18603342)
Hmmm I wonder if using a second browser, maybe based on a different renderer, in incognito with a different user-agent set up would be enough or if it would still get enough info. At that point it would still have your outgoing ip address at least is there anything else they could still match to a signed in session? I guess you could also route all traffic in the unsigned in session through a VPN too.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by antsar on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:24PM (#18603717)
Quite a few variables are used to track you, many of which do not change between different browsers.

Try this: https://panopticlick.eff.org/

Specifically, check out the "fingerprinting" details.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by snowwrestler on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:27PM (#18602849)
Incognito will accept new cookies but to my understanding it won't serve existing cookies that pre-date the Incognito session. A fresh Incognito window is supposed to be like you cleared your history and cookies before opening it, and then cleared them again when you close it. But yeah, in between the browser acts as normal.

In a normal (not Incognito) browser window, you don't have to be logged into Google for Google to read Google cookies. Logging out doesn't make you anonymous; they still know who you are.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:11PM (#18604696)
Even with a VPN it's possible to somewhat reliably fingerprint browsers, no? You can check user agent, screen size, installed plug-ins, etc.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by nielsbot on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:34PM (#18604809)
Yes, see antsar's comment below:

Try this: https://panopticlick.eff.org/

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by bo1024 on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @10:28PM (#18605479)
Disable javascript by default!
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by canadianwriter on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @01:15PM (#18602044)
Google has said they aren't using "much" personalization these days: https://searchengineland.com/google-admits-its-using-very-li...

and:

https://www.seroundtable.com/google-personalized-search-is-v...

So it comes as a bit of a surprise that it isn't as light as they have been saying recently.

Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by wnevets on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:04PM (#18601238)
Sounds like the "study" should have been just a google search.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by detaro on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:09PM (#18601304)
Because "they do X" makes looking into "what do the results of X look like" a completely pointless question?
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by icebraining on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @12:10PM (#18601325)
Yeah, the problem is more with the headline than the study.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by sixothree on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @04:21PM (#18603700)
To be fair, I have noticed more and more "creep" (take that how you like) related to logged out behavior from Google.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by px4n on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:07PM (#18604023)
To be fair, I have noticed more and more "creep" from Google full stop. I was hoping GDPR was going to put some sort of dent into this behaviour from large corporations, alas.
Re:Google personalizes search results even when you’re logge... by NoPicklez on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @05:25PM (#18604131)
It's interesting the tone of the blog as well, I bet if that article was written today it would've had a lot more rigor around the language being used. And it would be ensuring users that their security and privacy isn't be compromised, as opposed to this blog which is simply describing what Google thinks is a great feature that the public would be benefit from.