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Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by VikingCoder on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:08PM (#18455080)
I can't even tell you how many connectivity and graphics technologies MS launched, I developed on, and then they abandoned.

I struggle to understand why people think MS deserves enterprise trust & goodwill.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by shittyadmin on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:53PM (#18455456)
> I can't even tell you how many connectivity and graphics technologies MS launched, I developed on, and then they abandoned.

How many of these technologies still function on Windows 10? As far as I know many of their abandoned platforms are still fully functional. Even in Windows 10 you can still install 16-bit apps. They've always been dedicated to compatibility... try running a few year old app on a modern smartphone and you'll see the difference.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by jazzyjackson on Thursday November 15, 2018 @12:42AM (#18457133)
Not to mention that windows still sticks with carriage return + line feed to maintain compatibility with the 1960s.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by lozenge on Thursday November 15, 2018 @03:27AM (#18457730)
Notepad & its underlying text box component support Unix style line endings now.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by gruez on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:56PM (#18456238)
>Windows 10 you can still install 16-bit apps

what? https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/896458/64-bit-versi...

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by slededit on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:59PM (#18456251)
They ship 32-bit versions still to support those people. As a former msft engineer it was a huge pain in the ass to have to build the 32-bit version all the time - but customers used and relied on it.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by SyneRyder on Thursday November 15, 2018 @02:27AM (#18457516)
As someone with a 32-bit Windows 10, thank you!

I have it installed on an old 2006 MacBook, so Microsoft was still providing updates for a 12 year old machine... one that Apple itself abandoned after just 6 years. It's one of my favorite examples of Microsoft's longer support for old hardware.

And for what it's worth, after 12 years and 3 Mac purchases, I've switched & just bought a PC again.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by murukesh_s on Thursday November 15, 2018 @04:57AM (#18458108)
Which one did you buy? Mac's screen, keyboard (old one), trackpad, build and battery life is unmatched as far as I could say. I found mac hardware have much more longer life (even though Apple may not support it for that long)..
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by SyneRyder on Thursday November 15, 2018 @05:40AM (#18458283)
I went with a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Yoga. It hasn't arrived yet, so I can't directly compare, but I've tried the keyboard & trackpad in store & they feel about as good as my mid-2012 MacBook Pro. I chose the premium screen upgrade to HDR Dolby Digital 500 nits, 8th-Gen Core i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, touchscreen/pen & 3yr Next Day On-site Warranty was $1500 cheaper than a MacBook Pro with the same specs. The Thinkpad X1 has a user replaceable SSD, so I'll upgrade it to 2TB for $1000 cheaper than Apple's SSD upgrades, which are soldered on. I also love the Black, which fits in with my 2006 & 2007 Black MacBooks.

I considered the Surface Book 2, which has an excellent keyboard & trackpad, but the SSD can't be replaced by the user & tops out at 1TB. I was worried about the Surface Book hinge being fragile in my backpack while travelling & commuting.

My 2006, 2007 and even my 2000 Pismo G3 Macs all still work well. I used to love Apple reliability & recommended the Apple Store to everyone, I was that guy who queued for a day-one iPhone 4. But my mid-2012 MacBook Pro (bought in 2015) has been a lemon, the data flex cable keeps failing every few months, causing it to corrupt data & eventually lose the boot drive. (SuperDuper! has been a lifesaver.) Apple have replaced the cable 5 times now, each time with a week of downtime, but the replacement cables all have the same known defect & I just can't trust the machine anymore.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by BonesJustice on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:37AM (#18459094)
Nice. The touchpad on my 2013 MacBook Pro doesn’t click properly anymore, and I just don’t like the current line. I just bought a ThinkPad X1 Extreme (i7-8850H, 32GB, 1TB, 4K). I’ve been running elementary OS on it, and while it lacks many of the niceties of macOS (especially for owners of multiple Apple devices), it has a familiar and refined feel.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by SyneRyder on Thursday November 15, 2018 @10:36AM (#18460034)
> I’ve been running elementary OS on it...

I'm not much of a Linux user, but I've been trying elementary OS 0.4.1 Loki via Parallels and like it a lot. Unfortunately elementary OS 5 Juno has been buggy for me (random black screens requiring a reboot), so I'm stuck on Loki for now.

I was tempted to put elementary OS on my 32-bit 2006 MacBook (the one that currently has Windows 10), but there isn't a 32-bit version of elementary OS anymore.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by stevehawk on Thursday November 15, 2018 @09:21AM (#18459382)
Have anymore thoughts on that? I'm looking to upgrade my old Thinkpad Yoga.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by BonesJustice on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:31PM (#18465423)
What do you want to know?

I'm pretty pleased with the X1E: it's not quite MBP-level thin, but it's still a great balance of power and portability. NotebookCheck has a review that's worth checking out.

elementary OS feels fast, familiar, and refined. It's not quite as fleshed out as other distros like Mint (or macOS itself, for that matter), but it's getting better with each release.

The 4K HiDPI screen on the X1E is vibrant. My biggest concern was that the HiDPI scaling on Linux wouldn't be up to snuff, but I've been pleasantly surprised. The scaling for GTK apps was perfect right out of the box. There were some extra steps to get Qt apps to scale properly and inherit the GTK theme, but they look great now. Wine and Steam basically just required checking a box to get the scaling to work.

Happy to answer any specific questions you have.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by stevehawk on Thursday November 15, 2018 @09:20AM (#18459378)
Thinkpad Yoga (20CD-S02C00) owner here. 4 years and going strong. People on airplanes perpetually confused by my oversized "tablet" that I switched from coding on to highlighting passages in ebooks with a pen. Battery is finally starting to fail though and even though it's an i7 w/ 8GB RAM it is finally starting to feel "slow".

I'd love to hear your thoughts on battery life doing anything useful (not watching movies) with your new one. I'm debating an X1 Carbon, HP Spectre, or XPS 13 to upgrade to in the next few months.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by SyneRyder on Sunday November 25, 2018 @06:12AM (#18526423)
I've had the X1 Yoga a few days. I haven't done a proper battery test, but I think it will do at least a solid 7 hours of browsing & emailing, and it feels like it will be on par with my MacBook Pro 2012. The 7 hours is a pessimistic estimate - sometimes it bounces up to 10 hours, and I did 2 hours of actual work & the battery only drained to 80%. But if I watch a YouTube video, that estimate drops to 7 hours.

I'm more worried about screen issues. I got the premium HDR Dolby Vision screen, and I love the 500 nits & the wide color gamut is stunning & very OLED-like. But the calibration is off, the screen has a red-tint that hurts my eyes and makes the rest of the world look sickly green when I look away from the screen. I fear I'll have to buy an X-Rite and make my own calibration. It isn't like my Dell monitor, which came individually calibrated & with a printout of the calibration.

Also, this X1 Yoga (or Windows?) does lots of dynamic screen dimming, which was messing with Sublime Text in Monokai (dark) theme. It would dim the screen so much that white text would become mid-grey & it was unreadable & low contrast. I was able to turn that setting off, but doing so has reduced battery life to the numbers you see above.

If having a large / replaceable SSD wasn't a priority (and battery was more of a priority), I think I would very seriously consider the Surface Book 2. But hopefully I'll like the X1 Yoga more as I get used to it.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by Aloha on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:49PM (#18456477)
And the technical reason is you cant run NTVDM when the processor is in long mode, because Virtual 8086 Mode cant be run from Long Mode.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by slededit on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:51PM (#18456493)
I always thought that was a bullshit excuse. They could have emulated it. Its not like 16-bit apps are on the bleeding edge of performance. Still nobody else is supporting 16-bit applications at all anymore so you have to give them credit.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by wernercd on Thursday November 15, 2018 @09:28AM (#18459438)
> they could have emulated it

What's the cost/benefit of that? How much would it cost to build it and how much could they make?

You can theoretically do ANYTHING... but a business exists to make money...

Why does Microsoft support 16bit? because - without a doubt - someone is paying them for that "extra" support.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by slededit on Thursday November 15, 2018 @09:41AM (#18459527)
When you make a business decision - don’t pretend it was a technical one. That’s why it’s a bullshit excuse.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by wernercd on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:57PM (#18465608)
"Technical" is part of the excuse... Don't pretend that the "only" reason a company chooses to not do something is "technical".

As I said... there are many reasons - and a company exists to make money.

If they decide not to do something that doesn't make them money? It's not a hard reason to see why...

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by shmerl on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @10:41PM (#18456694)
A lot more function in Wine than in Windows 10.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by sfifs on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:17PM (#18455170)
Because businesses fundamentally run on Outlook and Office and support for that has been pretty amazingly consistent.

Yes I've seen SharePoints and Skydrives and OneDrives and Yammers but none of them are critical the way Office and Outlook are

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by MisterTea on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:10PM (#18465266)
You can also add Active Directory to that list. Stupid simple to setup, join machines and setup policies. Small businesses with tens of pc's are easily managed from a single domain controller and the licensing isn't that bad when you're revenue easily covers costs.

Oh, and Office 365 is a blessing. I never thought I'd actually like SaaS anything from Microsoft but it works really well Office. It's also much easier than selling a $6000+ purchase req for 15-20 new office licenses. Especially when the boss doesn't see why office 2003 is obsolete in 2011 if it "still works fine for me". ~$240 a month was an easy sell with "free" exchange email and upgrades. Yea small shops are fun to work at.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by brazzledazzle on Thursday November 15, 2018 @12:38AM (#18457115)
They burned people with their original on-prem OneDrive bullshit.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by gumby on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:37PM (#18456415)
> I struggle to understand why people think MS deserves enterprise trust & goodwill.

I don't like MS (so am not trying to defend them from a partisan PoV) but I believe most of their revenues still come from enterprise, and I think enterprise customers don't encounter the same level of problems.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by nitwit005 on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:17PM (#18456034)
But they generally still function right? They're just not "the way you should do it anymore".
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by irrational on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @08:13PM (#18456020)
And then there are things like IE6 that they didn't abandon soon enough.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by jmontano on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:53PM (#18456507)
I guess enterprise trust them because they speak the same language. Also under Nadella's lead Microsoft has shown it can eat it's own dog food and turn it into profit. Turning from a software house into a full cloud business, the so called "digital transformation".

Most of their customers see that and wanna follow the same path.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by cjhanks on Thursday November 15, 2018 @12:45AM (#18457146)
I am not often a Windows programmer, but I followed that saga. I think it was the result of poor internal communication and was fairly anomalous for Microsoft.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by paulryanrogers on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:18PM (#18455182)
Like GDI? (Honest question, not much of a graphics coder myself)
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by AlexeyBrin on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:20PM (#18455198)
You can use GDI and GDI+ on Windows 10 from VS 2017 without a problem.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by dman on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:16PM (#18455639)
If GDI broke there would be a riot in financial firms.
Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by VikingCoder on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:58PM (#18455496)
This is like patents expiring. By the time the patent expires, it's not valuable any more, because the new stuff is superior.

In the MS land, I get to completely rewrite my app, because I need the new hotness, which doesn't work with the old API.

Re:Google May Have to Get Used to Third Place in the Cloud by int_19h on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @07:15PM (#18455634)
That's because the new hotness is often outright not possible to fit within the constraints of the old API. It's the same on all platforms, really. The difference is that on Windows, you can choose to not chase the new hotness if you don't actually need it.

E.g. there are still people writing WinForms and even MFC apps, because it works for them, and they don't need anything flashy. And that is a fully supported scenario - not just running the old stuff on new platforms, but even writing new code that uses the old frameworks in the latest-and-greatest Visual Studio.