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Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by redorb on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:49PM (#183556)
I think she made a "douche-move" by upping her equity forcefully while still taking $6,900/mo - To be honest no matter the turn out your better without her cause she is lacking integrity.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:51PM (#183561)
Why? Even at 35%, she's got much less equity than the original founder. If her market value is 80k, and they're taking salaries, what do you expect her to do?

Talent is a marketplace. It isn't owed to anybody.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by run4yourlives on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:06PM (#183604)
She's taking a full salary, which by itself negatively affects the startup's chances for success.

She's not taking enough risk to get anything close to 35% in my opinion. It doesn't get more sweetheart that that. Too bad she was too dumb to realize that her good position could have been very good later on.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:28PM (#183658)
If her work makes or breaks the company, and she's worth more than 80k on the open market, and she isn't "65% stake confident" in the founder, it's not a "sweetheart deal". It's a sucker's bet.

Again, it seems like you're talking as if there were "rules" about equity participation. You would have to have an absolutely awesome idea to make, for instance, a security researcher participate in a startup for no salary. Even if you pay one $50k, and that $50k cripples the startup and maxes out hardship for everyone else in the company, it's still a sucker deal for the researcher.

I'm using a familiar example to illustrate a point. It's a marketplace, not a secret society.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by run4yourlives on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:34PM (#183675)
It is a marketplace. A marketplace where I know that good people exist that will not draw a standard salary and demand equity at the same time. (at least not in the levels we're using here)

And I don't care what you're doing, if it takes 12 months to get a prototype in django, you aren't worth 80K.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:53PM (#183703)
You're totally right about that. Sounds like there's a consensus that this project needed milestones.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by Xichekolas on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @03:22PM (#183751)
I think there is also consensus that this dev wasn't very good. Not sure I have seen a site so complicated that you couldn't at least roughly approximate it in 12 months with django.

Whole deal sounds to me like she didn't give a crap about long term future of the company, she just wanted to ride the funding into the ground through her paycheck. I'd bet she demanded more equity in a moment of faith, but by that point they were doomed.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by redorb on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:55PM (#183570)
because she agreed to 6% and $6,900/mo (a lot more than the founder) ... I think loyalty means something, be loyal to what you agree to; or quit... but don't hold the whole company hostage being selfish. I still stick with the "better off without her" mantra here.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by aonic on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:08PM (#183609)
If you are a paying your developer a market value salary, you are basically paying to have your idea developed.

Unless you were paying the developer very little, or nothing, that is when equity should be used as payment

35% is a LOT with $6900/m

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by nostrademons on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @03:30PM (#183757)
You're much better off paying that 35% equity along with a full salary than giving her 6% (or worse, 1%). Think about it this way: she is building your product. She can either put in high effort or low effort. If you give her 35%, there's a good chance she'll put in high effort, you'll both succeed, and your 65% is actually worth something. If you give her 6%, there's a good chance she'll put in low effort, you'll fail, and she'll soak you for your $6900/m sunk cost. If you give her 1%, it's almost certain she'll blow you off and you get the privilege of paying her $6900/month for nothing.

As happened here, apparently.

There's a whole chapter on this problem in most introductory game theory textbooks. The basic problem is that you cannot directly control how hard someone works, you can only give them incentives to work hard and then measure the output. Much as you'd like to say "She's a professional, you're paying her, she ought to do a good job," the real world doesn't work that way. She'll do a good job if it's worth her while to do a good job.

The economy is not fair. You can try to pretend it is and watch all your ventures get driven into the ground, or assume that you're going to get a raw deal sometimes and only take those raw deals when it leads to a sweeter deal later on.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by drinko on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @04:08PM (#183801)
nostrademons

I paid the 35% equity 8 months ago, only to have her quit when the going got tough.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by nostrademons on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @04:36PM (#183831)
I think that the project was doomed with this particular developer from the start, because it sounds like she doesn't really know how to program. 12 months for a Django website with nothing to show for it is insane.

My comments are mostly intended for bystander-readers who're thinking of doing the same thing - paying a technical developer a full salary + 1-5% equity to develop a product from scratch. There're a lot of people that still suggest that, and it really doesn't work, as you've found out the hard way.

I dunno what advice I'd give to you personally - it's a hard situation, as many others have pointed out. Probably cut your losses, chalk it up to an expensive learning experience, and move on, then try again some other time. As I mentioned in another comment, I think it's fairly unlikely that this developer left you usable code that someone else could pick up, so it'd be difficult to get a contract developer to push it to finish line. You could learn to hack yourself - Python and Django are not difficult - but it'd set you back at least a couple months, and then you'd still have to implement everything.

[Edit: last paragraph was on the assumption that her work was not even demoable, but rereading your post, it sounds like you've gotten to alpha but just need to incorporate the feedback in. If that's the case, a contractor might work, but be aware that it's harder to read code than to write code, and if the code quality is bad enough any contractor would just have to throw everything out and start from scratch.]

If you can find a technical cofounder, someone that you trust that you know is a good developer, I'd do that (and give the decent equity from the start!), and then they can probably write the whole site from scratch in a couple months. But it has to be someone you know well, someone whose skills you're sure about, because otherwise you run the same risk with them.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by jules on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @04:59PM (#183853)
Python & Django might not be too hard to learn, but learning Python, Django, HTML, CSS and probably Javascript will slow you down a lot.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by jamongkad on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @09:51PM (#184082)
Agreed Javascript in itself is a whole different beast together. I would have considered encouraging Drinko to learn jQuery first but then if you don't know how to hack to begin with then that advice doesn't really count.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by jamongkad on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @09:53PM (#184084)
Agreed 12 months for a demoable web app is bad IMHO, unless you're writing avionics software(even that is a stretch) web apps aren't exactly rocket science to begin with. So you can chalk it up to developer inexperience OR she was doing work on the side. Which would probably explain why it took her 12 months to begin with.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:12PM (#183622)
What was the nurse doing? Ideas aren't worth 65% of the company alone.

I don't know if it's intentional but it seems like a lot of people here are talking as if there were "rules", like "x% is fair, y% is unreasonable". There are rules of thumb. But compensation is a marketplace. If the founder has no leverage, taking a lower stake in exchange for salary isn't honorable. It's just stupid.

Both parties need to feel like they're getting a square deal. If either of them don't, it doesn't work.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by drinko on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:25PM (#183646)
I raised the funding, performed the market research, liased with many different health organisations, classifed the information in the database, wrote all the copy for the app, and created the interface mockups working with a designer.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:31PM (#183668)
Four possibilities spring to mind:

* Maybe you really did do a majority stake's worth of work, and she was just inexperienced.

* Maybe you didn't really do a majority stake's worth of work, and she felt like she had gotten shafted. You did start her at 6%.

* Maybe she was just a bad employee and a crap dev and wanted the paycheck. You weren't experienced enough to notice and fire her.

* Maybe through no fault of her own the project became untenable (for instance, maybe the spec changed a bunch of times, or you couldn't hammer out a reasonable set of features to launch on --- this has happened to us lots). You ran out of money, and she couldn't stay, good faith or not.

What are you going to do different next time?

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by aonic on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:17PM (#183632)
It doesn't matter what the nurse was doing, the developer was getting paid a good amount of money.

If I was hired to do a project, and my payment was inline with my market value, I wouldn't care what my employer is doing as long as I kept getting my money.

$6900/m sounds like market value to me. If I was in the nurses position, I would have offered 1% equity on top of $6900/m

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by alex_c on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:41PM (#183689)
It doesn't matter what the nurse was doing OR how much the developer was getting paid. The developer agreed to the terms upfront (and I'm hoping there was some kind of contract involved). Renegotiating or asking for a raise is one thing, but this sounds a bit too much like blackmail to me.

Of course, there are two sides to every story.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:45PM (#183694)
Blackmail?! She didn't take the company hostage. She quit it. You can always quit. I can always fire you.

If you make a mistake when you negotiate a position, you are not ethically required to "ride it out" to some foreordained date.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by alex_c on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @05:41PM (#183901)
I doubt anyone would consider it blackmail in the legal sense. But I'm putting myself in the owner's place: upfront contract, month 4 of 6, more equity promised upon receiving a deliverable. Losing the developer is a major setback for my startup, and the developer threatens me with creating this setback unless I give a large amount of equity. I would certainly feel that the developer is trying to take advantage of me at that point.

Like I said, it's one thing to negotiate better compensation, or to walk away for a better offer, etc. It's another to say "I can screw you over and I will use that to get more from you".

And like I also said, there are two sides to every story. This is seen exclusively from the owner's side.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by aonic on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @03:07PM (#183732)
I'm going to link you to your own thread ;) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=183584
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tomh on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:58PM (#183583)
I think 6% is actually pretty sweet, I built a 1.0 for a startup from scratch while in grad school, and got all of a 0.5% stake, plus consulting fees. Usually a large slice of the equity pie assumes that you are taking a hit in the wallet now for something better down the road. I believe your developer felt like she was getting the best of both worlds.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:00PM (#183591)
That totally depends on the app, doesn't it?
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by bigtoga on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:18PM (#183635)
I think it depends less on the app and more on the negotiating power/experience of each party.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tomh on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:11PM (#183618)
Not only that, but the market it's based in - our poster's app happens to be in healthcare, which has its own 800-lb gorillas (large hospitals and pharmas) and its own smaller players too.

Obviously the poster thought that the app would become lucrative enough to justify a $160k investment. If the payoff looked really huge, you could justify being a little more stingy with the options. Just sayin'. (From the guy who doesn't have a lot of options because his app is in healthcare too)

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:59PM (#183584)
How did she hold the company hostage? She did quit.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by run4yourlives on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @03:03PM (#183722)
I don't think anyone is saying that she (the dev) didn't use her leverage to her advantage. We all recognize that it was the OP's fault to give her that leverage in the first place.

However in business, relationships and "karma" - for lack of a better term - are really what things are about. There are times when you should be looking at maximizing your position, and there are other times when you should be looking to cooperate in order to maximize a collective position.

Many of the people here (myself included) are simply stating that the dev displayed poor business acumen by being too aggressive in taking advantage of another's weaker position. The key being who that other person is - her supposed partner.

Partnerships need to have a level of loyalty beyond any particular transaction or they simply won't work.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by nostrademons on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @03:53PM (#183786)
I'm speculating here, but I'm guessing that when she took the job, she thought "Sure, this'll be a cinch. I get a full salary, and if it works out, a nice bonus." Then it turned out the job was much harder than she expected, she saw the founder with 94% doing basically nothing, and said "Dude, if I'm going to slave away with this code for months, I should get founder-level shares. Otherwise, I could just do what you're doing and take the 94% you're getting" and tried to renegotiate for a stake that'd make the development pain worthwhile. The OP refused, so she walked.

Chalk it up to first-time founder mistakes on both sides. Almost everybody drastically underestimates the amount of effort required to get a startup off the ground. So what seems acceptable at first ("yeah, this won't be hard for me, I can whip it off for you") starts to feel like you're getting massively ripped off later.

And I totally agree with the comments on other subthreads that she's probably not a very good Django dev. I wouldn't be surprised if this is her first Django project. I remember that I expected my first PHP project to take 3 months; it ended up taking 3 years (I didn't charge for it; it was a volunteer project in college).

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by drinko on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @04:12PM (#183808)
nostrademons, please re-read the original post.

I never had 94%

I was eventually ok with giving up founder level share, but expected founder level commitment. This is where the gap lies.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by redorb on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:04PM (#183598)
"threatened to quit and raise her own funding" unless equity was raised to 35%, that is very very hostile. - she only quit once they ran out of money., actions just speak louder than words for me.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:10PM (#183615)
I don't get it. This isn't MTV's The Real World: Tulsa Edition. She didn't like the deal she had. She told the founder, whose stake dwarfed hers, what her issue was. It didn't work out. She left.

What are you asking her to do? Stay on in an untenable situation? News flash for you: when you make a mistake signing on with a company, you aren't "honor-bound" to stay there until the situation plays itself out. If your situation sucks, leave. She did.

There's another unfortunate lesson here. When people threaten to quit, counteroffers are often a waste of time. People with MBAs will tell you not to make them at all. I've learned this the hard way; I got a really good offer in the middle of my last PM job, brought it up with my current company, and they upped my stake. But for the next 2 years, they were constantly on the defensive assuming I was going to quit again; it damaged the working relationship severely.

If you're a solid company, and someone gives you an ultimatum, a no-foul clean break is often going to be the right move. I wish it wasn't like that (I had no intention of quitting), but some political situations are untenable.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by redorb on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:19PM (#183636)
Just smells wrong, to take $6,900/mo + 6% (and agree to it) then for no reason demand more equity (which can't pay your bills) so basically the only reason to demand more equity is selfish-ness and you realize the founder is in a bad spot.

- She only left cause they were out of money, I suspect she would have rode that horse to death.

-I'm done debating; it was really fun, I got work to do; Im sure you do too... .rb

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:28PM (#183662)
Unlike you, I do not want to do my work, which involves writing proposals today. =)
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tomh on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:06PM (#183602)
Yeah, but now all the technical knowledge of the project has walked out the door with her. Its a classic 'single point of failure' scenario.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:21PM (#183639)
That was a huge management error. A significant capital investment went into development. But it doesn't sound like any effort was put into consolidating the gains they made throughout the year she worked there.

Again: the project could have been broken into milestones, maybe with each demo-able. The founder wasn't technically capable of doing this, but could have had the dev write up a spec milestone-by-milestone, and then managed the project to that spec. At any point during the year, the dev could have left and the founder would have had something usable to work with.

Not only that, but by not managing the project well, the founder sent a message to the dev: "I don't really know what I'm doing, so I'm throwing money at you to make things work". There's nothing wrong with that when the person you're throwing money at is a full partner whose interests are aligned with yours. This person wasn't.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here, and I apologize if I'm off the mark.

Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by dangoldin on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:56PM (#183576)
Accidentally downed instead of upped you. Sorry. Will boost up another two of your posts.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by drinko on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @01:59PM (#183587)
I had to take a salary, because I am 32 yr old experienced nurse and have monthly fixed costs that I can't get away from.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by tptacek on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:05PM (#183600)
I'm not criticizing you for taking a salary. I take a nice one. I'm just saying, you're not working on "2 people in a garage" terms.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by drinko on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:07PM (#183608)
Well, my monthly outgoing are $2000 a month, so it kinda feels garagelike to me.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by redorb on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @05:37PM (#183897)
$3000 income - $2000 outgoing is more College like than garagelike, thats $250 free money a week (lots of ramen noodles)
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by bosshog on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @05:45PM (#183908)
$2400 (after taxes, see OP) - $2000 is more like $100 a week.
Re:Ask YC: Startup crisis. Out of money and tech co-founder ... by drinko on Wednesday May 07, 2008 @02:14PM (#183625)
The investment round was 20%, and I have a 45% stake.