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Re:Understanding Quaternions by umanwizard on Saturday October 20, 2018 @06:27PM (#18265818)
Possibly off-topic: why does practically any description of quaternions include the anecdote about somebody carving something into some bridge in Ireland?

I’ve learned about plenty of mathematical concepts while having no idea who discovered them or under what circumstances. Why are quaternions the exception?

Re:Understanding Quaternions by GlenTheMachine on Saturday October 20, 2018 @07:08PM (#18265961)
My doctoral dissertation used quaternions to describe spacecraft attitudes. My advisor was a stickler for not only appropriately citing references, but citing the most original (in the sense of oldest) references. This was something of a problem because the original references to some of the mathematical techniques I used were several hundred years old and not in English, and under the theory that a big part of the purpose of a citation is to help the reader understand the backgroud material this seemed a bit excessive. Nobody is going to learn French in order to read about Lagrange multipliers from Lagrange's original papers.

But for quaternions, it was easy: I actually cited the Brougham Bridge inscription. One cannot, of course, check the bridge out of the engineering library to check the citation, but clearly this was the original “publication” of quaternion multiplication.

My advisor finally got the point.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by iantrt on Saturday October 20, 2018 @08:23PM (#18266195)
If someone learned French to read about Lagrange multipliers from Lagrange's original papers, then they would be sorely disappointed: it was actually Euler who first used the Lagrange method! (And by some curious coincidence, the L/lambda could just as easily be a homage to Leonhard as to Lagrange...)
Re:Understanding Quaternions by lokedhs on Saturday October 20, 2018 @11:55PM (#18266660)
Don't they say that mathematical concepts from Eulers era are named after the second person to use them?
Re:Understanding Quaternions by salty_biscuits on Sunday October 21, 2018 @04:26AM (#18267161)
Re:Understanding Quaternions by lokedhs on Sunday October 21, 2018 @07:48AM (#18267600)
That is true too. But it's slightly different from the case of Euler who just invented so many things.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_L...

Re:Understanding Quaternions by ModernMech on Saturday October 20, 2018 @07:25PM (#18266003)
> Nobody is going to learn French in order to read about Lagrange multipliers from Lagrange's original papers.

You'd think, but I had a professor in physics who learned German just so he could read Boltzmann's original works.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by twtw on Saturday October 20, 2018 @07:51PM (#18266083)
It used to be common in hard sciences and mathematics for English-speaking doctoral candidates to be required to show some aptitude for German or Russian. Maybe still is, dunno.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by joeberon on Sunday October 21, 2018 @04:16AM (#18267141)
It’s definitely not
Re:Understanding Quaternions by dboreham on Saturday October 20, 2018 @09:15PM (#18266313)
I believe German was required in order to study Chemistry back in the day.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by hprotagonist on Saturday October 20, 2018 @10:40PM (#18266492)
it had to be. The bulk of the literature wasn’t in english.

it is now..but it’s still good to know for reviewing the older work.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by paulgrant999 on Sunday October 21, 2018 @09:49PM (#18271574)
in fact this is the primary reasons why I want to learn French, Russian, German ;)

reading the masters, is never a waste.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by nj65537 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @07:23PM (#18265997)
I think the story is told as a sort of cultural marker of what a Big F-ing Deal this discovery was/is. Mathematics, collectively, struggled for a long time to find a way to make 3-dimensional numbers into an algebra in a way that extends the algebra of complex numbers. (The cross and dot products are unsatisfying, because they don't have division.) The shock that this can be done in four, -- not three -- dimensions is still sort of reverberating, and that's what I think this story marks. It's a short stand-in for the longer story I've just summarized, and it evokes (or is meant to evoke) the mind-shattering thrill of discovery.

I don't necessarily think the story accomplishes this -- your question is but one piece of evidence that it doesn't -- but I think for those who spend a good amount of time with these kinds of algebra questions, it comes to take on that role, and that's why I think it's repeated.

(Teaser -- if you want to know more about these kinds of questions, Google for "real division algebras". There are not very many, and they way they are organized is not, I think, something one would expect.)

Re:Understanding Quaternions by xelxebar on Saturday October 20, 2018 @11:32PM (#18266605)
Also, in Hamilton's time they didn't have the view of mathematics as axiom systems that could be played with. Math was a way of finding Truth, so the idea of making up multiplication rules at your convenience probably seemed like an extremely non-obvious move.

The discovery of complex numbers and quaternions probably played a big part in getting people to question what math is, leading to Hilbert's program to study Foundations etc. Hamilton's story is a nice, rare single instance we can point to, symbolizing this discovery.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by umanwizard on Sunday October 21, 2018 @12:33AM (#18266753)
Fair point, but hadn’t complex numbers been around for a while by the time quaternions were discovered?
Re:Understanding Quaternions by blt on Saturday October 20, 2018 @08:46PM (#18266250)
I think it's more like a meme. Countless other mathematical insights in the same time period have been at least as important and counterintuitive.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by jf- on Saturday October 20, 2018 @08:15PM (#18266172)
> To find a way to make 3-dimensional numbers into an algebra in a way that extends the algebra of complex numbers

What does that mean? My understanding was that Hamilton was searching for a way to make the manipulation of points in space easier, such as rotation, and noticed that the imaginary part of the complex numbers could be manipulated in the way he wanted. He then created a rather artificial tool in the form of the quaternions that allowed this.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by xelxebar on Saturday October 20, 2018 @11:09PM (#18266563)
By "extends" here we formally mean "normed division algebra". Basically, we want any 2D slice of our space to be equivalent to the complex numbers. This is analogous to how the reals embed into the complex plane or how slices of vector spaces are still vector spaces. We don't want things to depend on a particular basis (i.e. implementation).

Anyway, it's pretty easy to make up some multiplication on 3D vectors, like multiplying their components. However, in general, it won't play nicely with such arbitrary 2D slices. As it turns out, this slicing property is equivalent to having multiplication play nicely with vector norms:

   |ab| = |a| |b|.
that is, multiplication of vectors multiplies their lengths. Getting a multiplication with this property is the hard part, per se, and is only possible in dimensions 1, 2, 4, and 8.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by samontar on Saturday October 20, 2018 @09:11PM (#18266306)
It wasn’t when we learned it in high school, but it’s just that it’s a story that’s easy to tell. Just like the Königsberg reference for Eulerian graphs; Kekule and the Benzene ring; Lorenz, the weather, the butterfly, and deterministic chaos.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by umanwizard on Sunday October 21, 2018 @12:32AM (#18266745)
Thanks - out of all the replies to my comment, I think this is one of the most plausible hypotheses. I indeed think the Konigsberg and benzene stories are as commonly trotted out as the Hamilton one.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by twtw on Saturday October 20, 2018 @06:54PM (#18265917)
I don't know, but here are my ideas:

- quaternions maybe have a more interesting backstory than other constructs. Not everything was carved into stone.

- quaternions never really became part of mainstream mathematical education. This makes them more niche and strange, and worth telling a story about. It's not as interesting to tell a story about something commonplace.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by Entalpi on Sunday October 21, 2018 @05:54AM (#18267352)
People should read up on Galois theory and the story behind it. It involves a french youth, the french revolution, groundbreaking maths, and tangentially Poisson, Fourier and Cauchy, Gauss, Jacobi.

His life should be a movie. :-)

Re:Understanding Quaternions by twtw on Sunday October 21, 2018 @11:10AM (#18268368)
It's always been interesting to me that both Galois and Abel accomplished so much despite dying so young.

Most introductions to Galois theory that I've read have mentioned his duel.

Re:Understanding Quaternions by rzzzt on Sunday October 21, 2018 @06:13AM (#18267385)
The Determinants of a Matrix
Re:Understanding Quaternions by billfruit on Saturday October 20, 2018 @10:39PM (#18266491)
Very curious indeed why it is so, esp since there is normally zero historical background explained about vectors and matrices.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by beautifulfreak on Sunday October 21, 2018 @01:24AM (#18266854)
Maybe you haven't heard of Oliver Heaviside. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside
Re:Understanding Quaternions by KboPAacDA3 on Saturday October 20, 2018 @10:01PM (#18266422)
And why do descriptions of quaternions include a rigorous proof? I trust quaternions work, so skip the proof and show me how to use them in a practical, efficient way.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by joppy on Sunday October 21, 2018 @03:26AM (#18267067)
The fact that the quaternions “work” (are a finite-dimensional real vector space with an associative real-bilinear multiplication, and a division operation) is quite special. In fact there are only three objects satisfying this criteria: the real numbers themselves, the complex numbers, and the quaternions.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by j1vms on Sunday October 21, 2018 @10:32AM (#18268120)
> there are only three objects satisfying this criteria: the real numbers themselves, the complex numbers, and the quaternions.

Does a proof exist that these are the only three of such objects?

Re:Understanding Quaternions by joppy on Sunday October 21, 2018 @10:52AM (#18268233)
Yes, and the proof only uses linear algebra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frobenius_theorem_(real_divisi...
Re:Understanding Quaternions by j1vms on Sunday October 21, 2018 @01:31PM (#18269040)
Thanks. Great result, surprising for 1877.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by umanwizard on Saturday October 20, 2018 @10:25PM (#18266466)
In mathematics often proofs lead to understanding why something works (on the other hand, many proofs aren’t written in a way that make the main ideas clear or easy to tease out from details)
Re:Understanding Quaternions by garmaine on Saturday October 20, 2018 @09:20PM (#18266327)
Surely you read about Galois fatal dual? I think it's just that these are instances where there is an interesting story attached.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by jf- on Saturday October 20, 2018 @09:10PM (#18266303)
People think it’s a cute story and there’s a plaque on the bridge. It doesn’t need to be anything more than that.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by Retra on Sunday October 21, 2018 @06:38PM (#18270760)
There are millions of abstractions in mathematics, and the truth is that the human brain has a much better time remembering stories than it does math. You teach the stories so people have some context to associate complex ideas with.
Re:Understanding Quaternions by brandonmenc on Saturday October 20, 2018 @06:32PM (#18265842)
> somebody
Re:Understanding Quaternions by umanwizard on Saturday October 20, 2018 @06:44PM (#18265887)
What exactly is your point? I said "somebody" for effect, not because I don't know who Hamilton was.
[dead]
Re:Understanding Quaternions by dang on Sunday October 21, 2018 @12:48AM (#18266790)
We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our request to stop.

Could you please not create accounts to do that with?