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Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by jpatokal on Monday October 15, 2018 @07:42AM (#18218916)
I built this site in February this year in anticipation:

http://www.untether.space/

The spread between Bitcoin priced in Tether and Bitcoin priced in USD has been holding steady at <1% until now, but as I type this, the risk premium is at 8.4% and climbing. Looks like the Untethering has begun.

For the curious, source at https://github.com/jpatokal/untether and also submitted as a Show HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18219034.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by zamadatix on Monday October 15, 2018 @09:49AM (#18219599)
$2,000,000,000+ worth issued without proof of backing? What value did Tether add that people were willing to deal with it as a middleman to dollars?

Side note: The graph could use some TLC. The colors are indistinguishable and there are no static historical charts on the page, just the graph since my visit.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by TylerE on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:04AM (#18219708)
That is could be used to avoid all those annoying banking laws (AML, KYC, etc).
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by mrep on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:09AM (#18220326)
Until the bank they are using to accept USD decides to check them on that (per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18214935):

@patio11 19h19 hours ago Eventually, a bank or, more likely, a regulator is going to say “Actually this doesn’t look like a legit deposit that we’re uncomfortable with supporting due to AML/regulatory reasons. It looks an awful lot like proceeds of crime intermingled with grey money.”

@patio11 19h19 hours ago More And the terrifying outcome, from the cryptocurrency economy perspective, is the regulator doing what the USFH did with respect to Mutum Sigillum (Mt Gox’s US front): “OK, we’re going to give you two choices.”

@patio11 19h19 hours ago More Door #1: Prove that it’s legal money. This should be trivial for you because KYC is the law and your compliance should be automatic. So have your lawyer suit up. BTW we expect this to take 3+ years.

Door #2: We propose a 50% haircut.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by yholio on Monday October 15, 2018 @02:32PM (#18222325)
> Prove that it’s legal money.

A clear abuse, it's the government's job to prove illegal deeds. Holding customers funds hostage under the threat of bankruptcy, while the company navigates the complex legal minefield the government itself created is just about the most corrupt system and farther from the rule of law you can get, short of direct confiscation.

They even went as far as claiming MtGox was a money transmitting business because it was a customer of Dwolla, and so customers of Dwolla could send money to themselves by withdrawing and depositing dwolla to MtGox: http://k.lenz.name/LB/2013/05/16/seizure-warrant-against-mut...

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by cbau on Monday October 15, 2018 @02:13PM (#18222138)
I never really understand this claim, but also don't have a deep expertise in AML/KYC. How does Tether help here?
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Monday October 15, 2018 @02:34PM (#18222350)
The situation isn't too complex: Bitfinex is a crypto exchange that had difficulty finding banks that would work with them. Banks are regulated and expose themselves to a great deal of liability if they provide banking for services for illegal endeavors. As you can imagine, some crypto exchanges are deemed too risky.

Tether and Bitfinex are the same thing, though both will vigorously deny that, but it's patently clear that they're intimately related. Tether has variously been able to get banking services, and thus act as a USD deposit to enter crypto exchanges like Bitfinex (USD -> USDT tether -> trade for Bitcoin, etc.). Because it's so clear that Tether is simply used as a way to circumvent AML/KYC, Tether continues to have difficulty securing banking services.

This current uncoupling of USD:USDT(tether) is due to such a banking issue. There are two major risks with Tether:

* Liquidity: without access to banking services, Tether uncouples and there can be a 'bank run' as the majority of funds are unavailable to maintain the stable price.

* Reserves: right now there are no guarantees that each Tether is backed by actual USD. You simply have to trust Tether on this. Ultimately Tether may be a sort of fractional reserve, and thus enough selling pressure will make Tether worthless.

At it's core, it's just a clumsy obfuscation.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by cbau on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @04:03PM (#18232738)
Thank you for that answer!

Would you mind briefly expanding on "Because it's so clear that Tether is simply used as a way to circumvent AML/KYC"? Not being contrarian, I just don't understand how this part works.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by ceejayoz on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:21AM (#18219883)
(Maybe.)
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by bmh on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:32AM (#18219966)
A major use of USDT is that you can sell your cryptos when they're high, converting them to USDT, which holds it's value. Then, when the crypto prices drop, you buy in again, and repeat. By keeping it entirely in the crypto space, your country's tax system can't charge you for capital gains.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:37AM (#18220008)
> By keeping it entirely in the crypto space, your country's tax system can't charge you for capital gains

This is blatant, willful and permanently-documented tax evasion, an amusing combination of illegality and stupidity.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by russdpale on Monday October 15, 2018 @06:05PM (#18224272)
Havent you heard? In America this is just plain smart!!
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by teilo on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:48AM (#18220119)
No, it’s not. It means you don’t pay capital gains when you’re merely exchanging one form of crypto for another. You have not realized any gains until you have converted your crypto into real assets. Converting from one form of crypto to another for the purposes of arbitrage only delays the taxes. It never eliminates them.

This is really no different than selling and buying stocks in an IRA account.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by jungturk on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:58AM (#18220213)
Crypto-crypto trades no longer enjoy the like-kind exchange tax treatment you're describing (in the US, as of 12/31/2017). The recent tax law narrowed that benefit to real estate only.

https://www.coindesk.com/owe-irs-crypto-crypto-trades/

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:08AM (#18220316)
> no longer

On 31 December 2017, the IRS clarified that § 1031 does not apply to crypt-crypto trades. It did not say § 1031 applied to crypto-crypto trades before then.

The article you reference says "traders still may be able to argue that their transactions undertaken in 2017 and prior years were not taxable under the Section 1031 like-kind exchange rules," but that "the application of the like-kind exchange rules to crypto transactions is far from certain" [1, emphasis mine].

[1] https://www.coindesk.com/owe-irs-crypto-crypto-trades/

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by teilo on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:00AM (#18220237)
I stand corrected.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:50AM (#18220142)
> You have not realized any gains until you have converted your crypto into real assets

You transacted into (what you believed was) a proxy for cash. That's obviously selling.

Every tax jurisdiction has rules about this because every tax jurisdiction has idiots who thought they'd found a clever workaround. (I think the first American one involved a guy in the 19th century selling property for the key to a lockbox full of cash.)

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by RobLach on Monday October 15, 2018 @07:52PM (#18225178)
I feel that people believe that they can get away with things because they imagine a situation where you can argue on a technicality and get away with it.

In reality if they want to punish you for this they'll see right through it. Loopholes are only loopholes because there's an established history of authorities not willing to enforce it (brown paper bags around liquor bottles, "Suggested Donations").

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by ceejayoz on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:53AM (#18220165)
> This is really no different than selling and buying stocks in an IRA account.

This is an insane assertion. One of the main points of an IRA is that the trades within it aren't taxable events. Trades made outside an IRA are taxable events.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by teilo on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:00AM (#18220234)
I understand the difference. All I meant is that in an IRA the trades are not taxed but the withdrawals are.

But I see the point here regarding a cash proxy.

Full disclosure: I have zero exposure to crypto. Not my cup of tea.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by lojack on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:48AM (#18220120)
In the US you can be charged on those capital gains. Capital gains are assessed at time of sale, this includes both Crypto-Fiat as well as Crypto-Crypto.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by toast0 on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:42AM (#18220066)
Your country may not automatically get tax records, but I'm pretty sure both exchanges would be taxable transactions under US tax rules.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by rtkwe on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:47AM (#18220115)
Only have a cursory understanding of capital gains but shouldn't the exchange out of Tether back into $Crypto have zero gains if it's working as intended since there's no change in value of your holding?
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by freeone3000 on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:58AM (#18220215)
Capital gains tax on securities (like tether) is assessed on the difference between what you paid for the security and what you sold the security for. You can denominate it in whatever you like (tether, bitcoin, gold, sheep, whatever), but it's assessed in USD at time of sale.

Essentially, you're being taxed on the income you got from holding that security, not for trading, it's just assessed when you trade.

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by rtkwe on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:37AM (#18220569)
Yeah I'm aware of that much but toast0 said both transactions (which I took to mean for example BTC -> Tether and Tether -> BTC) would both be taxed which doesn't make sense where Tether is working as intended and holds value at $1. Of course the sale of BTC for Tether would be taxed because the market for that is moving but Tether in theory should not have an additional tax exposure just like selling BTC for USD then buying ETH doesn't require you to pay taxes on your ETH purchase with USD.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by toast0 on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:46AM (#18220654)
Sorry, you're right, if tether is working as marketted, it is a taxable transaction, but taxes are due on $0 of gain, so....
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by tomjen3 on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:46AM (#18220107)
Maybe, but whoes to say these people are under the US Tax system?
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by gamblor956 on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:04AM (#18220276)
These same rules generally apply in so major countries.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by charlietango92 on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:36AM (#18219999)
pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't you eventually convert your USDT to 'real'/fiat currency at some point? It would be taxed then as 'other income' right?
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by vidarh on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:44AM (#18220086)
I'm guessing the theory (which may or may not be tax evasion depending on your local tax code) is that you're not taking the profit until you sell for fiat or take it out of the exchange.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by Tsubasachan on Monday October 15, 2018 @01:08PM (#18221527)
Too bad BMW dealers don't accept Tether. At some point you want to cash out, and who knows if this will be around in 50 years at all?
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by granaldo on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:59AM (#18220223)
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by londons_explore on Monday October 15, 2018 @09:59AM (#18219679)
We have no proof $2B were issued.

It's possible that $2M were issued, and the rest don't even exist (or rather they are still controlled by the tether organisation).

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by himlion on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:13AM (#18219769)
We don't have proof, but what would their incentive be to print them but not issue them?
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by vidarh on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:46AM (#18220103)
To appear more credible would be one possible incentive.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by nerdponx on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:49AM (#18220125)
To make people think it was popular, stable, and safe.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by wyldfire on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:19AM (#18219871)
The graph is tough to read as is. There's no labels for the x data and they y is autoranged. As of 1020 Eastern US time today, all I see are two horizontal lines. So I can see that both the Tether/Bitfinex/Bittrex/Poloniex cluster and the USD/Bitstamp/Kraken clusters are stable. But without an x label I can't tell if they're stable over the last hour, month, or year.

* If I mouse-over the x ticks, I can see that the graph spans ~10 minutes, but most people probably wouldn't have the patience. Now that I know it's been stable for ten minutes (is it usually unstable across ten minutes‽), my next question is 'how did it look over the last 30 days? 12 months? *

All in all, a cool site! Just a tip from the graph-nitpickers out here.

EDIT: I see now, this graph shows only current activity since page load. This was likely a tradeoff to simplify the design of the page such that the data didn't have to be stored on the server. Maybe the page is such that the data is requested directly from the exchanges themselves?

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by caioariede on Monday October 15, 2018 @10:42AM (#18220063)
I'm using the web archive to compare:

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.untether.space

EDIT: seems like Feb will always display 0.41% and the rest is 27.02%

Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by parliament32 on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @04:11PM (#18232820)
This is very nice, thanks for taking the time to make this! The only complaints I have are 1) a history in the graph would be nice, and 2) lack of HTTPS.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by ndonnellan on Monday October 15, 2018 @11:04AM (#18220280)
Currently showing me $NaN (NaN%). Looks like your weightedAvg function doesn't work because the tetherPrices array is empty.
Re:Tether (USDT) price falling to $0.95 by justaj on Monday October 15, 2018 @01:30PM (#18221713)
Please add HTTPS.