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Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by ordinaryperson on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:18PM (#18149893)
Was there a time when politics wasn't full of poison? By the end Thomas Jefferson hated George Washington so much he refused to attend his funeral.

And that's just 242-year history of America, you can go back to Rome, Greece or Ancient Egypt and see thousands of years of vitriol inside any large human collective.

Modern tools could do a better job, sure. Twitter, FB, YouTube and the rest could use some kind of reputation systems, which at least provide a gradient of user interaction instead of just blacklisting.

But politics have never been pure, it's a myth. Don't blame communication platforms (although again, they can do better), blame the humans that use them.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by slg on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:47PM (#18150692)
Politics may never have been pure and things today aren't as bad as they were at certain points in human history, but I am honestly surprised that people here aren't recognizing that there has been a pretty stark change in how politics have been progressing in the last decade versus the several previous decades. The polarization has increased drastically and the civility of political discourse and faith in institutions has dropped considerably.

A prime example is that the US is on the verge of confirming a man on to the supposedly apolitical Supreme Court that says under oath that his political opponents have created a vast conspiracy to bring him personally down. If that man is telling the truth, that is an awful moment in political history. If that man is lying, that is an awful moment in political history. It doesn't matter which side of that issue you are on, but something is happening here that would be unthinkable a couple decades ago.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by bliblah on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:59PM (#18150777)
I think this is the issue; at least in the U.S. EVERYTHING is becoming more politicized no matter how inane.

You are also EXPECTED to have a binary opinion on all these issues with no room for differing opinions.

Look at the NFL protests during the anthem. Kneel and you are a bleeding heart liberal that hates the cops. Stand and you are a red hat conservative promoting police brutality and the Private Prison Complex.

Every day there's a new outrage that somehow splits up the community down party lines.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by hnruss on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:14PM (#18150927)
It's classic divide and conquer. The ultra rich have framed politics as red vs. blue, when in reality it has always been (and always will be): them vs. the rest of us.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by chasd00 on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:04PM (#18151259)
i remember during the financial crisis thinking if only the tea party and the occupy crowd realized they were two sides to the same coin maybe something great could have happened. I feel like that dawned on the powers-that-be and the old divide and conquer technique was quickly applied; tea party turned far right, occupy turned far left and they've been fighting ever sense.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by longerthoughts on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:53PM (#18151649)
It's eerily similar to the Machiavellian approach to alliances. Something along the lines of joining forces only with those who are weaker than you but can be used to amass power against your greatest threats. In the context of the examples you provided: major party identifies small group making noise, major party aligns themselves with that group, major party exploits that group as tool against opposing major party, major party under no obligation to truly pursue agenda of absorbed group due to relative power.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by chrisco255 on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:56PM (#18151678)
They definitely had the same spirit and were pissed off about many of the same things, but they differed drastically on the solutions...
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by ppseafield on Saturday October 06, 2018 @04:31AM (#18154173)
The Tea Party was funded by the Koch brothers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/13/tea-party-bill...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by refurb on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:51PM (#18151160)
I blame the media. They only ever cover the most extreme viewpoints. They wouldn't get clicks otherwise if an article was titled "Voter aren't sure what to make of the Supreme Court nominee".

I've overheard a few conversations of my coworkers (yes, anecdote) about the whole Kavanaugh debate and pretty much every one of them was pretty common sense (e.g. not sure if I believe her, but Kavanugh certainly sounds like he isn't an angel).

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by oldsklgdfth on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:01PM (#18151231)
I would go one step further and say that I blame the medium.

TV and visual information mediums are very effective at promoting emotions, but make it very difficult to convey rational arguments and thoughts. Notice how easily you can be distracted by the appearance of the messenger and not pay attention to the message itself.

There is a very good book on this called "Amusing ourselves to death", by Neil Postman. He wrote this in 1985 and he was far ahead of his time.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by debaserab2 on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:58PM (#18151213)
You could take that a step further and blame media consumers then - the media promotes the stories that bring in ad revenue more than others.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by longerthoughts on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:23PM (#18151413)
Yes. Seems far more plausible that the media is a reflection of human nature than that the media has reshaped the way people think.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by simplify on Friday October 05, 2018 @05:45PM (#18151985)
Media is not merely a reflection, but a perpetuator of extremes. If everyone stopped using media, there would still be extremist, but they would be so far distant we wouldn't think of them or their ideas.

Here's a great interactive explanation of how this works: https://ncase.itch.io/wbwwb

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by longerthoughts on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:02PM (#18152099)
Absolutely, only meant to point out that the media brings out the worst that is already in us rather than corrupting otherwise civil beings.

To speak even more generally, humans make tools that amplify our impact. Some of those tools make us better at being terrible, some make us better at being clever, some do both.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by slg on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:46PM (#18151608)
And Twitter is part of the media and has helped shape nearly all other forms of media. That brings us back to the subject of this post.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by evan_ on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:37PM (#18151538)
> Stand and you are a red hat conservative promoting police brutality and the Private Prison Complex.

Nobody is saying this

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by rexpop on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:52PM (#18151643)
I am saying this. There's no reason for anyone to stand for the national anthem, these days. Women should be kneeling in protest, men should be kneeling in solidarity.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by disgruntledphd2 on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:49PM (#18152349)
I think you may just have confirmed GP's point.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by clairity on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:14PM (#18150925)
then just say no. stop falling for the partisan trap and assert your right to have an opinion disconnected from a political identity (even if that opinion more-or-less falls in line with one of those parties).
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by jonny_eh on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:10PM (#18151308)
Who said that standing means you're a MAGA supporter? That sounds like a straw man to me.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by jdoliner on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:37PM (#18151532)
It's interesting that you say this would be unthinkable a couple decades ago when it seems, on the face of it, that it's pretty similar to the Clarence Thomas confirmation process in 1991. Do you see them as distinctly different?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by irrational on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:33PM (#18151488)
From what I've read, the time after the World Wars was an aberration and we are now returning to the norm.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by odorousrex on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:31PM (#18152260)
This seems to be the case.

It takes a mass tragedy to unite people. Look at what happened to GWB's approval after 9/11!

I worry it will take another war or mass terror attack to get us out of this divide we are in.

If only I were Ozymandias planning a fake Alien attack on New York to bring everyone together...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by vowelless on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:05PM (#18151265)
It's been going bad for a few decades now :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/23/a-stu...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by boomboomsubban on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:48PM (#18151143)
> It doesn't matter which side of that issue you are on, but something is happening here that would be unthinkable a couple decades ago.

Robert Bork, the man Nixon promised a Supreme Court seat to for assisting with the Saturday Night Massacre, was fairly close to making it to the supreme court. He blamed "ultraliberals, radicals and leftists" and their dangerous tactics for his vote failing. Hardly unthinkable.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by poilcn on Friday October 05, 2018 @11:47PM (#18153404)
In most countries in the world either nowadays or in historical perspective it would be unimaginable that there would be a dialog between different cluster of powers. They'd just try to destroy each other no matter what.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by charlysl on Saturday October 06, 2018 @01:46AM (#18153732)
I agree that politics has polarized in the last decade, but I would say the primary cause is the wave of populism in the aftermath of the financial crisis, which has overlapped with, and been amplified by, the social media explosion.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by tomjen3 on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:13PM (#18151341)
I am old enough to remember that the supreme court choose Bush as president -- that was an aweful moment (and would have been so if it was the other way around too). A conspiracy by one side to harm the other, that is politics.

As for civility, you can argue that but in my mind that civility ended with the candidacy of Trump. I hold the belief that civility is overrated though, I would much rather have them be honest than civil.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by fjsolwmv on Friday October 05, 2018 @07:12PM (#18152480)
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by michaelbuckbee on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:41PM (#18151565)
I think there are two real structural changes to how the political system is configured that have led to an increase in partisanship.

First: Gerrymandering [1] - as districts have become more and more solid for either party it naturally results in candidates with a less centrist view. A couple decades ago the candidates being elected often to win voters from both sides to get elected. Now that we have many more situations where it's 80%+ party dominance in a district we get more extreme people representing us.

Second: Demographic shifts in apportionment [2]. We sort of take for granted that we have a fixed number (435) of representatives spread across the states and 2 senators per state. But this wasn't always the case, originally it was 1 representative per 30,000. If we followed this through to today we'd have 10,000 representatives. This plus the growing urban vs rural divide (which was the reason we halted the growth in representatives anyway) all contribute to the greater divide.

I point this out because structural issues like this are fixable in a way that throwing up our hands and saying: "politics always has been bad" does not.

1- https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/07/06/a-pr...

2 - https://www.census.gov/population/apportionment/about/histor...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Udik on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:34PM (#18150567)
No, but that is not the point. The point is how media change the way politics is made and ultimately shape the society. For example, I think it could be argued that mass media (newspapers, radio) heavily contributed to the totalitarian drift of the first half of the twentieth century in Europe: pervasive communication without proper balances can be effectively used to hammer slogans into people's heads.

I think we are now in a similar situation: we have an entirely new media and we haven't had time yet to adjust to it and to find its rules and limits. And I think this is very dangerous.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by arwhatever on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:21PM (#18150967)
No doubt politics has always been dirty, but the existence now of a system which, by design, automates the amplification of the most obnoxious of its millions of users, has to have had some effect.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by arwhatever on Saturday October 06, 2018 @01:34PM (#18156256)
See Scott Alexander's "toxoplasma of rage" article, or cgp grey's "this video will make you angry" video on YouTube for some good analysis.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by antishatter on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:25PM (#18150481)
Who was the presidential candidate who traveled around by train telling everyone his opponent had died? I always laugh when people try to claim politics is only slimy and dirty now.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by cheeseomlit on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:16PM (#18150386)
Many have a justified distrust of any 'reputation systems', just look how the concept is used in China. Whoever controls the system has great potential for social engineering
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by fjsolwmv on Friday October 05, 2018 @07:16PM (#18152497)
Mob brigading and SEO techniques aren't better. Distributed, personalized reputation systems give democratic control.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by village-idiot on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:51PM (#18151636)
Never forget the Gracchi brothers. Populist reformers who were both executed by the Senate because of the threat they represented to patrician power. The older of the two was killed in an area of Rome where weapons were not permitted, by senators, while he was Tribune and technically sacrosanct.

When politics goes bad, it goes really bad.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by nindalf on Friday October 05, 2018 @05:50PM (#18152022)
A word on the Gracchis. The Gracchis were radical reformers by the standards of their time - they wanted to take lands from large landowners and give it back to landless peasants. Tiberius Gracchus was clubbed to death in broad daylight. Gaius committed suicide when he knew his death was inevitable.

What's interesting is that when studying the fall of the Republic, it makes sense to start with these guys. Roman politics had always been high stakes and cut throat, but this was when it took a turn for the violent. Starting 130BC, it started going downhill. In the next few decades, this violence gradually became regular civil war, especially after military reforms that meant that poor people could sign up to be soldiers.

By around 60BC, a politician would run up massive debts to get elected, try to make it as much money during the 1 year consulship and then try to rob whichever province they became governor of. If they lost the election, they had no hope of paying back the debts, unless they launched a civil war, overthrew the state and seized power. Catiline was one such person.

Things got worse after that. The sham of democracy remained, even after Augustus cemented power.

Point being, the Republic took nearly a century to die, it didn't happen overnight. The degrading of politics was a gradual process. Previously unthinkable acts are normalised. Good people who are disgusted with the state of politics leave, and the horrible people remain, leading a race to the bottom.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by dredmorbius on Sunday October 07, 2018 @03:14AM (#18159251)
Any reading you'd recommend?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by liftbigweights on Friday October 05, 2018 @11:28PM (#18153347)
> Was there a time when politics wasn't full of poison? By the end Thomas Jefferson hated George Washington so much he refused to attend his funeral.

Don't forget the little old Hamilton-Burr incident in Weehawken. It's so odd to read journalists whining about poisoned politics. If you go back in history, there hasn't been a period where we didn't have political contention. And a lot of that was fueled by newspapers ( many times owned by politicians themselves ). One of the reasons for the Hamilton-Burr duel was because of hate Hamilton's newspaper ( NY Post ) wrote about Burr.

> Twitter, FB, YouTube and the rest could use some kind of reputation systems, which at least provide a gradient of user interaction instead of just blacklisting.

They should let it be a open uncensored platform to ideas and opinions. If anything limit the journalists, newspapers, etc. Twitter and the rest of social media used to be fun ( even if was offensive ). It became toxic when so many journalists/media types started getting involved.

Take twitter. Who is responsible for a significant amount the toxicity? The journalists and celebrities with the blue check mark.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by abtinf on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:39PM (#18150076)
> Was there a time when politics wasn't full of poison?

No. Reason made this short video about the political attacks from the election of 1800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_zTN4BXvYI

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by PhasmaFelis on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:03PM (#18150286)
America wasn't like this 20 years ago. Politics has always been bad, and there's times it's been even worse, but that doesn't mean it's not trending downward right now.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by amreact on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:34PM (#18150569)
Somewhere I read that the idea proposed that the more money flows from the government to voters, the more mud slinging happens.

For example, after the Civil War in the U.S., politics got extremely bad due to the large numbers of voters who were veterans and were receiving money from the government. Things got less nasty after those people died.

The idea is that nowadays in the U.S., there are several ways large numbers of voters get money from the government: welfare, government employment, and government contractor employment. Speaking generally, the Democrats tend to have more voters on welfare and directly employed by the government, while the Republicans tend to have more voters in government contractor jobs. So, each party has policies that give more money to their constituents, which results in bitter political fighting.

I know I'm being hand-wavy but that's the general idea. Here are some links that support this idea:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/12/the-politics...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/upshot/how-we-became-bitt...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by pjc50 on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:37PM (#18151074)
This would imply there's some correlation between countries with large state sectors and political vitriol and dissonance, which absolutely does not appear to be the case.

(Also, politics after the civil war was brutal because Reconstruction was necessarily the destruction and re-building of a culture at gunpoint, that of the slave owners. Their resentment is still a poisonous factor in current US politics, Charlottesville passim)

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by sjg007 on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:39PM (#18151083)
You forgot corporate welfare.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by eric_h on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:37PM (#18150603)
> America wasn't like this 20 years ago.

20 years ago was 1998, the year Clinton was impeached - the politics were just as slimy 20 years ago, the reality of it was just not as readily at our fingertips as it is today.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by AnimalMuppet on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:16PM (#18150938)
All right, lets go back just a bit further - to Watergate. The House Judiciary Committee voted to impeach Nixon. One member called his wife, said that they had voted to impeach, and then started crying. This was one of the Representatives who voted in favor of impeachment, crying (I believe) because it was a tragedy for the country as a whole that it had come to this.

I can't imagine that, if the Democrats win the election next month, if they vote to impeach Trump, that any of them will cry about it, ever. I can't imagine that the Republicans shed any tears over voting to impeach Clinton, either.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by crooked-v on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:10PM (#18151314)
No one in Washington would cry about Trump being impeached because Trump has done literally nothing with the Presidency that would earn respect from anyone. Even his own party sees him as little but a seat-filler who's only useful because he picks appointees along party lines.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by bitofhope on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:19PM (#18152195)
He got rid of the requirement for government agencies to report their Y2K preparedness measures. Faint praise but it's something.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by PhasmaFelis on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:04PM (#18152107)
That's not really the point, though.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by genericone on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:45PM (#18151597)
Literally nothing that would earn respect?

If something that Trump did that was good was considered revenue, and something he did that was bad was considered costs, you're saying that it has all been costs? Or do you mean that in your view his profits = revenue - costs has been negative? I'm sure you can go around the country and DC and find plenty of people who think Trump has earned revenue, so to speak, even if they think he's a net negative.

Anyway, the points are all subjective, so no-one can balance the books but each individual voter.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by fipple on Friday October 05, 2018 @05:06PM (#18151761)
To continue your analogy, the revenue that Trump has made to date has been by selling the furniture. It's like a new Google CEO came in and sold the datacenters and said "look at the revenue!"
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by tomatotomato37 on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:24PM (#18150991)
Hell, a bit over 20 years before that Nixon was resigning over the scandal that brought us [x]-gate. Politics has always been a dumpster fire
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by PhasmaFelis on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:55AM (#18153601)
It was slimy as fuck, but it wasn't this bad. Someone like Trump could never have been taken seriously 20 years ago; a lot had to change to get us to this point. There's ample and varied evidence that American partisanship has skyrocketed in the last quarter-century (for example: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/05/takeaways-on...).
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Shish2k on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:20PM (#18150964)
20 years ago, Clinton tells a lie about his personal life and gets impeached; today, Trump lies about things which have actual life-or-death consequences for US citizens, and that's just ordinary political background noise and you're crazy if you get upset by such a minor thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by amanaplanacanal on Friday October 05, 2018 @07:29PM (#18152550)
Well... the lie about his personal life was under oath, and about sexual behavior in the office during a lawsuit about sexual harassment. I think Clinton was a pretty good president, mostly, but this seems like impeachable behavior to me.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by chiefalchemist on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:48PM (#18150145)
> "Was there a time when politics wasn't full of poison?"

Short answer: Nope.

A couple years ago I read "Freedom for the Thoughts That We Hate." Aside from the history of the 1st Amendment, my #1 takeaway was: "politics has always been ugly and dirty."

That said, I think what's difference now is more and more people are less and less aware of history, as well as the fact that the MSM has finally figured out how to make money in the internet age (i.e., a "news" cycle based on controversy).

Editorial: Say what you want about Trump (I'm not a fan either) but even at his worst he's no where near as dangerous as Dick Cheney. To believe otherwise is only a sign of not understanding Cheney's nastiness.

Even if you compare DJT to BHO, BHO was no saint either (e.g., Wall Street was "pardoned" but Snowden was a Most Wanted). However, the MSM's narrative of BHO was one that over-glorified the upside and completely ignored the darkside. Unfortunately, playing to that manufactured extreme contrast today is good for profits in the DJT era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_for_the_Thought_That_W...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by AnimalMuppet on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:20PM (#18150962)
> I think what's difference now is more and more people are less and less aware of history...

More and more people that other people are listening to are less and less aware of history. The internet has given a platform to many more voices. Some of those new voices have worthwhile things to say. And others are coming from places that are rather disconnected from reality. Before, the only place those people got heard was at the corner bar. Now the whole world can hear them.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by chiefalchemist on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:45PM (#18151123)
I'm not going to disagree. But perhaps it's a chicken v egg situation? That is, people would be wiser about who / what they listened to __if__ they were more aware of context. What is at play is confirmation bias gone wild. Start with a false / flawed idea and there are plenty of ways to reinforce that.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by zapita on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:17PM (#18150400)
What is “the MSM”?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Staxitix on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:21PM (#18150434)
Main Stream Media is the term. I guess your top channels such as CNN, Fox, MSNBC, BBC, etc...
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by dkubb on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:22PM (#18150454)
I think he means Mainstream Media. It's the first time I've seen that abbreviation too.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by chiefalchemist on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:40PM (#18151092)
Sorry. I thought it was the common abbreviation. Maybe MsM then>?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by zapita on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:58PM (#18151206)
I see. How do you define “mainstream media”? Outlets with a very large audience? In the sense that large media outlets covered Barack Obama one way, and small media outlets another?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by chiefalchemist on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:18AM (#18154554)
Outlets where the emphasis is on the talking head and the entertainment value, while journalism takes a back seat.

Outlets that parrot press releases and the narrative dictated to them via back channels.

Outlets where asking questions, analysis and looking beyond the common narrative is frowned upon.

Outlets that shamelessly relabel editorial / op-ed as news and/or journalism.

Outlets that self-anoint themselves as "trusted."

Outlets that say they are "world news" or "international news" and then focus 95% of their coverage on the USA.

Outlets that use non-vetted tweets as content / sources.

Outlets that refuse to police other outlets because they are afraid of "retaliation" from other outlets.

Outlets that employ the BuzzFeed mindset and tactics as a means to "journalism excellence."

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by zapita on Tuesday October 09, 2018 @05:43PM (#18180053)
Are you sure you understand what the word “mainstream” means? A recent dictionary defines mainstream as “representing the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group”. You don’t seem to use that meaning of the word at all.

Your definition seems closer to “low-quality” or “biased”. As in “The low-quality, biased media only talks about the good sides of Barack Obama”. Is that what you meant?

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by kermittd on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:19PM (#18151388)
Completely agree. People put to much blame on social media networks. Though I like Twitter and dislike Facebook they are not the core problem.

Great historical references as well. The Founding Fathers, though incredible people, were extremely partisan.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by ntsplnkv2 on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:45PM (#18150115)
The US fought a civil war over politics.

But there are times where it is better/worse than others.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by pjc50 on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:38PM (#18151081)
Hard to imagine a civil war being apolitical...
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by clairity on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:11PM (#18150902)
> "Was there a time when politics wasn't full of poison?"

no. politics, by definition, is the exertion of power, and that is "poisonous", in the sense that someone will not like it, and will, if possible, resist and potentially counter-attack.

it's an interesting mental exercise to consider whether or not all unhappiness stems from the application of power.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by rexpop on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:54PM (#18151657)
Interesting ontology. If politics is exertion, what do you call the passive observance or determination of extant power balances?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by clairity on Friday October 05, 2018 @06:05PM (#18152113)
well, my definition is admittedly a little bit of an extrapolation from the greek root (city affairs), but it's common in writings about government and power. that's because you can't govern a group of people without the exertion of power (making people do things they may otherwise not do, like throwing trash on the ground as a benign example).

so you don't necessarily need a separate word or phrase for the observance of political parties and other governmental actors as they exert power--that's just "watching politics".

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Natsu on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:39PM (#18150618)
No, there's a very long history of political assassinations, civil wars, etc. all of which predate Twitter. Everything is just more public now.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by naravara on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:24PM (#18150994)
I love how every example of "It was always this bad" involves people reaching back to before the '60s and, in some cases, before The New Deal.

In most cases, reversing several decades of stability and progress would have been considered a very troubling development.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by dredmorbius on Sunday October 07, 2018 @03:13AM (#18159246)
The lesson isn't "this should be normal" or "don't worry about it", but that the underlying dynamics -- political, social, economic, media -- are so damned consistent. The dynamics are systemic. Which means it's quite helpful to see where and when the dager signs are reappearing.

For me, the watershed moment was reading the opening paragraphs of A.H.M. Joness, Augustus. The politicaal divides and platforms of 40 BCE look exactly like those of the 1960s (when Jones waas writing0 or 2010s, when I read his words.

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/6i2h0e/ahm_jon...

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Natsu on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:02PM (#18162587)
Bolsonaro was stabbed in Brazil just months ago. Congressional Republicans had someone come to their baseball game and shoot at them. There have been all those assassinations involving Russia, as well. There was that relative of NK dictator Kim's that was poisoned. And that's just recent news, if I actually researched it we'd have a long list. You don't have to go that far back to remember things like President Reagan being shot.

I suppose you might say those are just attempts, but that's more a reflection of better security details. The underlying willingness of people to murder others over politics is still evident from the attempts.

Regarding civil wars, I would think you'd know about Syria at least. Wikipedia gives me 17 civil wars since 2000. We could roughly triple that if you want me to cut off anything from the 60s or before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civil_wars

If the only political assassination you're aware of is JFK and the only civil war is the US civil war, which is the only way I can come up with those cutoff dates, then I submit that you might want to look at more world news.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Chinjut on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:44PM (#18151114)
You think the examples are all before the 60s? There were some very prominent political assassinations during the 60s, Watergate happened during the 70s, etc.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by moorhosj on Friday October 05, 2018 @04:19PM (#18151385)
The 70s were over 40 years ago.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Natsu on Sunday October 07, 2018 @05:04PM (#18162601)
I posted above, but I see no reason to limit things to the USA and I see no reason to limit assassinations to only the successful ones. Just because politicians have better security and actually thwart more assassination attempts, that doesn't mean that the underlying willingness to murder people over politics has gone anywhere.

There are plenty of close calls to show that the schemes were serious: Bolsonaro was stabbed, Reagan was shot, etc.

Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by pvorb on Friday October 05, 2018 @07:07PM (#18152459)
Absolutely. The only thing Twitter poisoned is journalism around politics.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by sharpshadow on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:38PM (#18150055)
During the time of Alexandria they 'hated' each other so much they burned everything down and we had 1000 years dark ages. I hope humanity will not be that stupid again.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by maw on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:26PM (#18150486)
Let's just say that that's not exactly what happened in Alexandria.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Balgair on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:41PM (#18150643)
That's not even remotely true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by gassed on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:34PM (#18150022)
Prob with social networks is that they bring vitriol to the masses, and uncover deeply-seated vulnerabilities in democracy.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by someguydave on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:40PM (#18150080)
Mass-democracy was well-known to be a terrible idea by many wise people in history, for the precise reasons that Twitter is revealing.
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by Nasrudith on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:46PM (#18150688)
Weren't many of those speakers essentially paid propagandists for monarchs, oligarchs and strongmen?
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by someguydave on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:08PM (#18150871)
No, they were speakers who essentially made the US Constitution into a republic instead of a mass-democracy
Re:How Twitter poisoned politics by dphack on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:49PM (#18150152)
Lol, the Orville had an episode called 'Majority Rule' that is a funny take at a total democracy.