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Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by floatingatoll on Thursday October 04, 2018 @08:27PM (#18144768)
This is an excellent step for protecting MacBook Pro users against hardware invasions (such as US and China border authorities). If you trust the user to replace hardware, you permit the user’s hardware to be altered by malicious actors. By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted subset of all humanity, you ensure that it’s vastly more difficult for the vast majority of malicious humanity.

Yes, in a theoretical world, you could set up your own crypto authority and sign your own device repairs, assuming Apple were to build support for this. But if you brick your CA you’d brick your laptop if it ever needed repairs someday, which would leave you thousands of dollars poorer and in need of a laptop.

I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by hobs on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:23PM (#18145017)
"By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted subset of all humanity, you ensure that it’s vastly more difficult for the vast majority of malicious humanity."

This is a foolish statement.

Any bad actors with power can just add themselves to that subset of humanity - this is the same reason we dont add software special backdoors that only special sets of humanity can unlock.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by toasterlovin on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:55PM (#18145631)
> Any bad actors with power can just add themselves to that subset of humanity - this is the same reason we dont add software special backdoors that only special sets of humanity can unlock.

This analogy doesn't make sense.

The alternative to adding backdoors is to not add backdoors (which is safer). The alternative to restricting hardware repairs to a subset of humanity is not restricting them at all (which is more dangerous).

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by matt4077 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:55PM (#18145633)
Well, the FBI famously DIDN'T manage to get themselves onto your "bad actors with power" list.

Sometimes I think people vastly overestimate the skills and powers of the security services...

And the analogy to backdoors doesn't work, because for the user who isn't a crypto-analyst (and, tbh, even for those) this system is almost tautologically safer than not having it.

It bears mentioning that security of personal computers has vastly improved over the last decade or so, both Windows and Mac. It's ridiculous to disparage their efforts as useless.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by bsheir74 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @08:38PM (#18144813)
Prohibiting 3rd party repairs doesn't make you any safer than you are now. If you were concerned about hardware attacks you could continue to bring your computer to the apple store, and never have to worry. All this action does is remove options for those of us who do wanna fix their own machines.

And this is assuming you trust apple to inspect their parts closely. Their computers are still made in china. Why couldn't the chinese governnent coerce their suppliers to commit sabotage?

Also, when was the last time your Mom was the target of a hardware attack? Is she a foreign diplomat or intelligence officer?

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by floatingatoll on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:22PM (#18149927)
I hope you see the irony in asking me whether my mom is a spy. Your question is rhetorical and unhelpful to this conversation. If she isn’t, the answer is no. If she is, the answer is still no. Please don’t use conversational warfare tactics here.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by gst on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:25PM (#18145027)
> All this action does is remove options for those of us who do wanna fix their own machines.

I don't see how this removes any choices. It's still possible to buy other non-Apple hardware that doesn't have those restrictions.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by paavoova on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:51PM (#18145128)
Consider this: the majority of the consumer demographic is largely ignorant to these issues. As such, Apple's largest customer demographic is in no place to make informed decisions. By restricting hardware and serviceability, Apple directly fosters mass consumerism by selling non-repairable, disposable gadgets. This undoubtedly contributes to climate change and non-renewable resource drain. Even if every Apple customer decided to make a change with their next purchase, you would still have a huge number of devices heading to the landfill, all simply because of Apple deciding to impose hardware restrictions for profit.

And note that, as mentioned in the article, Apple is actively lobbying against Right-to-repair, which will help other corporations get away with similar practices. So for how long is it "still possible" to have any choice whatsoever? Can you buy, for example, a mobile device with an open baseband? No - already the consumer can't vote with their wallet nor have choice in many, if not most, matters of consumer technology.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by paxy on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:12PM (#18144959)
The number of users who simply want/need cheaper repairs and upgrades dwarfs those who are at risk of getting their hardware bugged by state-sponsored actors. And considering these laptops are made in China in the first place, any assurances of security are already moot.

If security was the primary concern, Apple would sell this as a separate model variant (manufactured in the USA) and charge a lot more for it.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by threeseed on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:17PM (#18144988)
I also used to believe that privacy was only for spys but I have very quickly changed my position.

Gays, minorities, journalists, dissidents, whistleblowers etc are all being targeted and jailed in many countries in the world. And in China it's entire swathes of the general public. And so much of this is directly attributable to lax privacy and security.

And I don't know believe that there is a huge market for cheaper repairs of Macs. Most people are still just going to local service providers who are authorised by Apple anyway. Otherwise getting hold of parts can be difficult.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by paxy on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:25PM (#18145028)
The repair market for Apple products isn't huge precisely because Apple has done everything it can to kill it.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by paulie_a on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:41PM (#18145085)
The repair market for apple laptops is probably small anyways because apple is a small fish in that market. Why bother?
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by parrellel on Thursday October 04, 2018 @10:01PM (#18145174)
Because your three thousand dollar laptop has shat the bed, and you couldn't shell out for Apple Care or they failed to help in proper corporate fashion.

If they weren't actively shitting on repair companies, I'd say there'd be more of a market.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by paulie_a on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:29AM (#18154587)
Apple has never been a major player regardless of this. They never will be. That goes back for decades and they barely have moved the needle. They are the artisanal version of computers.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by philliphaydon on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:26PM (#18145030)
In Asia you can get an iMac sad upgrade done for $10. You just supply the ssd. If you buy the disk from the shop the margin is tiny.

You can get an iPhone screen repaired for peanuts. Apple quoted $190 to do it. Shop did it for $95.

Speakers replaced on a MacBook Pro? $45.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by dwaite on Thursday October 04, 2018 @10:03PM (#18145187)
On the flip side, none of those parts (the SSD, the iPhone screen, or the MacBook speaker) are the same parts as Apple uses.

Third party iPhone screen replacement is generally not worth it due to shoddy warranty by the shop and noticeably worse screen quality. Where it is worth it is when you are already out of warranty and trying to extend the life of your phone.

The SSD is probably closest, although Apple does have custom part #s with custom firmware.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by biktor_gj on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:40AM (#18145775)
Unless the alternative is discarding the hardware completely.

See, it's all about pricing, not quality of the parts. Last iPhone I sent for repairs at work came back with an invoice of 340€ for a screen replacement. At work that's something we _have_ to do, we can't send the phones anywhere we want. But if it was a personal phone, if I'm out of warranty and I'm going to be billed 1/3 of the cost of the phone for a new screen, or 100€ for a refubrished part somewhere else, it would be an easy decission.

Now, if that aftermarket repair was out of the question, you start wondering if it's worth to spend 1100€ for the more basic version of the phone, or you just spend 200€ on a Xiaomi and if it breaks you still can buy 4 phones more if they break. Or maybe you buy an iPhone still, but then when it breaks you just throw it away and buy an Android phone. Maybe the first time it won't happen, but after you have spent 1500€ on a phone and something else breaks(battery? lightning connector maybe?) it comes to a point where you stop throwing money into the hole.

On the laptop side, I get what Apple is doing. It has their new flashy T2 chip with integrated Touch ID and they're trying to do the same thing they did with the iPhones and nobody is going to stop them (well, maybe in EU they force them to allow the sale of Apple Diagnostic software to 3rd parties or fine them)

They're trying to convert their computers into big iPhones and treating everyone like a child that has to be taken by the hand and told him what to do all the time. And that is my problem with Apple. I'm not worried of somebody putting a backdoor in my laptop (and if they wanted to backdoor my laptop a year ago they only had to type 'root' [enter] [enter], no need to open the case), I'm not that interesting to anybody or any agency, but I don't like to be treated like I have no rights on the things I buy, and I don't need permission from anybody to do whatever I want with whatever I paid with my money.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by philliphaydon on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:19PM (#18145485)
> none of those parts (the SSD, the iPhone screen, or the MacBook speaker) are the same parts as Apple uses.

With the exception of the SSD. The screen and speakers etc are the same as Apple uses.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by threeseed on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:37PM (#18145065)
Apple is fine with owner repairability for the parts you listed.

The issue is with allowing replacement of parts where you could do something that compromises security. Replacing someone's display assembly with one that disables the on light. Or swapping keyboard with one that has a key logger.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by parrellel on Thursday October 04, 2018 @10:02PM (#18145179)
We all absolutely believe this is their logic. Truly, utterly.

It has nothing to do with ensuring product turnover whatsoever.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by ams6110 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:31PM (#18145048)
Yeah but that has nothing to do with Apple specifically. If you're doing stuff that's potentially going to get you jailed, best not do it online.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by drb91 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:23PM (#18145019)
Why not sell to both markets?
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by toasterlovin on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:57PM (#18145639)
Apple is shipping devices which are safe from state actors intervening when the devices are manufactured. This affects who can make repairs. They are not restricting the repairs to prevent state actors from intervening when devices are being repaired.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by userbinator on Thursday October 04, 2018 @10:39PM (#18145320)
This security improvement will make me safer

If society as a whole constantly falls for the "security" argument then it won't be long before every aspect of your life is controlled by some central entity.

I feel obligated to bring up that timeless quote again: "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by matt4077 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:57PM (#18145642)
That argument is slightly lazy, in that it applies to far too many situations where it's obviously wrong... Looking both ways before crossing the street does not make my life controlled by some central entity, etc..
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by fghtr on Friday October 05, 2018 @02:30AM (#18146114)
You do not give up any right when you look both ways before crossing the street. Which other situations you can suggest?
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by Rjevski on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:03PM (#18144922)
Wouldn't state actors be able to steal the software used by Apple to re-enable the software? With a network of thousands of "Apple Authorized Service Providers" there's gotta be leaks (that is, if state actors didn't have access to Apple's own internal systems).
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by caf on Friday October 05, 2018 @08:18AM (#18147487)
Agreed, there is zero chance that Apple is doing any deep background checks on these Authorized Service Providers and all their employees.

In fact chances are, most third-party repair shops are going to end up finding such an employee who's prepared to authorize a bunch of additional repairs for a little extra cash on the side.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by awakeasleep on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:28PM (#18145034)
You're committing the most common sin of thinking-about-security: considering possibilities without adding the weight of probabilities.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by noobermin on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:48PM (#18145596)
If I'm going to be targeted by state actors then I wouldn't fix my computers anyway, I'd have professionals worry with that. For example, if I was an important worker for another state, the hope is that the state that employed me would take care of it. Re probabilities, the probability that a random hacker who wants to tinker will be targeted by a state actor is nilch.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by fermienrico on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:17PM (#18144989)
My opinion about Apple has changed recently. They're now actively promoting privacy and I am OK with trading repairability with privacy.

Also, Louis Rossmann on Youtube one of the most vile, deeply corrosive personalities out there and his audience enjoys the bashing of Apple left and right. He has essentially marketed himself as Anti-Apple and his message is always "Apple is Evil".

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by pnw_hazor on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:45PM (#18145589)
Watching Rossmann vids is why I have given up on Apple.

He points out bad engineering/manufacturing in $2000+ laptops and I agree with his insights regarding how Apple makes it seem like the customer/user is wrong to cover their bad engineering.

Ala -- the antenna is fine, it's your fault you have bad reception. You are not holding the phone correctly

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by killaken2000 on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:17AM (#18145727)
Blame the consumer and sell a fix. Think Different.

https://venturebeat.com/2010/06/24/steve-jobs-on-iphone-4-re...

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by snowwrestler on Friday October 05, 2018 @12:07AM (#18145679)
> Ala -- the antenna is fine, it's your fault you have bad reception. You are not holding the phone correctly

But it turned out Apple was right about that; the iPhone 4 sold for years after the bumper program ended and with high consumer satisfaction.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by andrewflnr on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:21PM (#18145006)
Even if anyone had mentioned Rossman, your second paragraph is one of the most textbook ad hominem arguments it's possible to make.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by busterarm on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:20AM (#18145903)
Yeah, what a baseless, unprovoked attack that was.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by FireBeyond on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:35PM (#18145061)
How on earth is this being spun into "Apple protecting your privacy!"?

This is the RDF in action.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by qubax on Thursday October 04, 2018 @10:37PM (#18145311)
It's amazing how so many of these comments read like Apple PR.

"I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom."

Holy goodness. In the 2000s it was Google will save the world "Do no evil". Now it's Apple "Keeps us safe".

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by solomatov on Thursday October 04, 2018 @10:29PM (#18145278)
Why do you think malicious actors won't get their hands on these programs?
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by sschueller on Friday October 05, 2018 @01:59AM (#18146008)
This also enables governments like China to prevent its citizens from modifying apple hardware. In essence it provides a tool for a government to retain control.

You might trust Apple but do you trust your government to not pressure Apple? Apple cares about making money, not its users.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by sparky_z on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:22PM (#18145011)
And if this were an optional service that Apple provided for security-conscious customers, then I don't think anybody would have a problem with it.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by colejohnson66 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @08:35PM (#18144801)
I highly doubt that’s Apple’s reason considering they didn’t give a comment when asked for one
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by threeseed on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:23PM (#18145016)
Apple rarely comments on anything. You can't make assertions based on that.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by drb91 on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:25PM (#18145026)
What about protecting our computers from Apple? I’m far more concerned about them dictating our future than China.
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by michaelmrose on Friday October 05, 2018 @03:24AM (#18146346)
You could allow EITHER party to authenticate a repair. You could even let Apple issue you a new key.

Hardware attacks are virtually a non issue now. Pretending this is about security is just nonsense.

Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by cmurf on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:33PM (#18145546)
Why do you assume such malicious actors can't get a copy of the software, or leverage someone who has access?
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by jvolkman on Thursday October 04, 2018 @11:20PM (#18145489)
Re:Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repai... by microcolonel on Thursday October 04, 2018 @09:39PM (#18145073)
> If you trust the user to replace hardware, you permit the user’s hardware to be altered by malicious actors.

The correct way to handle this, however, is to offer to sign the customer's key for a given unit or order, with a mechanism for succession (i.e. simultaneously sign a successor key, and expire the current one).