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Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by Animats on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:46PM (#18107276)
micro-payment system

This comes up regularly. All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people who want to collect micropayments. Not from the users who would pay them.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by privong on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:56PM (#18107329)
> This comes up regularly. All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people who want to collect micropayments. Not from the users who would pay them.

All the enthusiasm for ads only comes from the people who want to show/sell them. Not from the users who would be subjected to viewing them.

I think it's still a worthwhile discussion. Presumably the micropayments have fewer (or at least different) unintended consequences. And since in both cases (ads, micropayments) the side collecting the money is the one pushing them. So discounting micropayments solely on this basis isn't really a good way to discriminate.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by jasode on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:40PM (#18107619)
>All the enthusiasm for ads only comes from the people who want to show/sell them. Not from the users who would be subjected to viewing them.

Yes, it does seem that way because nobody actually says, "Please please give ads because I love them!"

Instead, the correct way to frame what users really want is to separate "stated preferences" from revealed preferences.[1]

The stated preference, of course, is for users to complain about ads and loathe them. Another source of stated preferences is marketing surveys and questionnaires.

But the revealed preference is different because it's the observation of what really people do instead of what they say they'll do. Most would rather watch youtube for free rather than pay $9.99 for YoutubeRed. Same for Spotify free tier with ads rather than $120 a year Spotify Premium. Most would rather read the 5 free articles with ads from New York Times rather than pay a subscription.

Another interesting example was Amazon's Kindle e-reader. They had a version with ads (what they call "with Special Offers") for $114 ... and one without ads for $139. More buyers chose the device with ads.[2]

Did Kindle users want ads?!? Of course not. But they valued the $25 savings more than the the ad-free experience. Basically, they "do want ads" -- in a roundabout way.

The micropayments enthusiasm doesn't really change the consumers' priority of "free with ads" over "pay for zero ads". People really really like the economics of "free". Unless micropayments is $0.00 -- which would be an oxymoron -- it will always have that economic handicap to widespread adoption.

>Presumably the micropayments have fewer (or at least different) unintended consequences.

One unintended consequence is that authors and creators end up with less revenue if they restrict their output to only subscribers making micropayments.

[1] https://www.beyondcostplus.com/blog/stated-vs-revealed-prefe...

[2] https://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2385398,00.asp

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by ppseafield on Sunday September 30, 2018 @06:26PM (#18108773)
As for Spotify and Kindles, the service is not that different ad supported or not. That means any savings is a much better trade-off. Youtube used to be 100% free, and $9.99 doesn't get you too much more than what you get for free + ads. In fact you can install uBlock and never see adds on Youtube for free.

Most people don't actively want ads. Ads are just too big of a revenue stream for most for-profit companies to ignore. A benefit of the original TV cable subscription was not having ads (which drove initial adoption!), but then networks saw they could charge people for cable AND show them ads with little recourse for the customer, so they did.

Also the Spotify and Youtube examples you presented are strictly subscription vs. no subscription. There can be no consumer enthusiasm for an option on the web that doesn't exist! Micropayments would add a different option with different trade-offs.

These are older examples, but they still exist. When you buy a newspaper for example, your options are not only free vs. monthly/yearly subscription, as is currently the case in your examples. They can pay a small amount for a single issue. When you buy a phone card, you can pay a small(?) amount for single calls vs. having a dedicated phone line subscription.

More recently, when you have a Starbucks card, you can use it for small purchases instead of "subscribing" to Starbucks. It's easy to use and works with the apps and online ordering. It also avoids the massive fees that payment processors collect which usually make <$1 contributions next to worthless.

Currently the most similar system to a "micropayment support infrastructure" I can think of is Patreon, which some people do actually use to work on projects full time.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by dnautics on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:02PM (#18107750)
It's more complicated than that. I'm happy to pay for Pandora but not Spotify or YouTube; I pay for content on Amazon (despite hating Amazon) and not Netflix or YouTube red...

I can't rationalize those choices, even, it's just what I've done, empirically.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by Nursie on Sunday September 30, 2018 @05:34PM (#18108554)
These things are very much aggregates and averages.

A significant number of people do subscribe to spotify, and some is buy the ad-free kindles.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by Nursie on Monday October 01, 2018 @04:22AM (#18110849)
some of us buy the ad-free...

sigh, phone keyboards and a lack of proof-reading.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by mistrial9 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:56PM (#18108042)
close - 'and' .. new user-interface and/or genuinely popular marketing campaign and/or new social drivers can change the dry desert of no-pay to the flowing streams of pay .. ads without consent are somewhat a mimic of broadcast tv/radio .. the future is evolving
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by tokyodude on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:27PM (#18107874)
probably because I'm old bit I don't hate ads. Go read any computer magazine at archive.org from the 80s. It's 60-70% ads, 30-40% content. We used to actually buy those magazines partly for the ads.

It's not ads I hate. It's #1 tracking and #2 obtrusive ada. Videos, animations, pop ups, etc... Unobtrusive ads are fine. Stack Overflow, Google Search, JSFiddle come to mind as ads I like. They are often relevant and they are unobtrustive

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by Klathmon on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:10PM (#18107414)
While I agree micropayments should be persued more, personally I've seen many MANY users that love when things are free (as in money).
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by jacquesm on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:30PM (#18107554)
I am not in the micropayment business, nor do I want to be. I do understand that news organizations and various web properties need to make enough money to survive, and would happily support a micropayment system.

But the sad reality is that it will not happen. Not because people like me would not follow through on their pledge, but because advertising is completely entrenched at this point and it most likely would not generate the same amount of revenues.

Keep in mind that newspapers (the old kind) used to charge both sides: a subscription for the users to pay and advertising on the other side. So if some organization would start to charge using a micro-payment system sooner or later ads would be back (or they would not even leave) simply because a large enough audience is worth marketing to, and an audience that is paying for content is worth more, not less.

So I'm afraid that advertising is here to stay.

The problem that I have isn't so much with advertising, it is with all the tracking. I'm fine with ads, and I'm fine with occasionally seeing stuff that I might be interested in. But all the tracking to boost the value of the individual profiles is what irks me. So an opt-out using a micropayment system to have zero tracking would maybe be closer to practical than a complete opt-out of advertising.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by thebranch on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:52PM (#18107696)
At least you have an interesting motive. Anyone who thinks journalism would improve is fooling themselves.
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by jonathansampson on Sunday September 30, 2018 @07:15PM (#18109006)
A reliable micro-payment system is attractive to those who understand the benefits. To the average user, this is well-beyond the scope of their interest. They just want the web to work, and work well.

At Brave, we integrate the blockchain for low-friction, private contributions to content creators based on user attention distribution. We do so in such a way that we efface the micro-payment/blockchain integration. The end user has no idea _how_ the solution is implemented, they just know that their favorite websites are getting support (some for the first time ever).

Effacing this technology is the right way. Figuring out how to make it work without burdening the end-user is the clear path of least resistance.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by kardos on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:56PM (#18107330)
You're not wrong, but some users would be happy to buy their way out of the "advertising experience" for a few cents.
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by amelius on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:24PM (#18107511)
What is people's data worth? 50 dollars per year?

I guess most people would be willing to pay that amount in exchange for privacy.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by matt4077 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:52PM (#18108017)
People willing (and able) to pay $50/y for this have the unfortunate correlating characteristic of being far more valuable as advertising targets than the average person.

In other words: If you are willing to give me $50 for ad-free internet, that's going to cost you $100. And so on...

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by NeedMoreTea on Sunday September 30, 2018 @05:53PM (#18108641)
That may be so in a world without ad blocking.

In the world we have, even with money to spare people will stop visiting a site in preference to enabling ads. Especially as ads get ever more intrusive and destructive of the experience while use of ad blocking continues to rise. It's not solely to get content for free, it's mostly because the ads got so damn irritating and so high a percentage of screen space and page weight. To that they ad a triple shot of tracking so they can trace you all over the web.

Too many intrusive adverts is why many get rid of cable and terrestrial TV, or only listen to BBC radio.

So do content creators prefer some money from those people, or none at all?

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by amelius on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:58PM (#18108049)
The point is that these people will not be paying the ad networks; they will be paying the content creators ...
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by matt4077 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @03:59PM (#18108059)
And my point is that content creators will prefer to be paid more by advertisers, one you've proven you have money to spare.
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by amelius on Sunday September 30, 2018 @04:09PM (#18108113)
Once you start paying content creators directly (with the condition that there are no ads and no tracking), then ad networks have nothing to do with the whole situation.
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by kardos on Sunday September 30, 2018 @04:28PM (#18108214)
matt4077 might be right actually; those who choose to pay to avoid ads are probably not broke and thus more valuable ad targets, so (some?) content creators will get greedy and double-dip by producing content steeped in product placements or equivalent. That, in turn, would undermine the idea and adoption by the willing-to-buy-out-ads segment would be low.
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by amelius on Sunday September 30, 2018 @06:14PM (#18108722)
In-content ads are regulated in many places. You can't do it unless you explicitly mention that it is an ad.
Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by 3K7m7bUZyWA1KCD on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:35PM (#18107590)
I doubt even 10% of European citizens would pay even 5$ per year for that as long there are adblockers.

Now, if the content is worth it, that's different story. There have always been subscription based websites (e.g. forums with pay-to-upgrade schemes).

Why webmasters and advertisers haven't yet perfected and adopted server-side ad injections is beyond me.

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by kardos on Sunday September 30, 2018 @02:37PM (#18107606)
> Why webmasters and advertisers haven't yet perfected and adopted server-side ad injections is beyond me.

Because then the advertisers have to trust the webmasters to actually show the ads and not inflate the numbers, etc

Re:Firefox: The Effect of Ad Blocking on User Engagement wit... by chappi42 on Sunday September 30, 2018 @01:58PM (#18107345)
why do you know this? If you write such generalisations then please at least link some studies in support. -- Personally of course I would pay/use micropayments. It gives me the flexibility to not commit to a small number of services but to browse on a wide scope and still support.