News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @04:29PM (#18088299)
It might be a feature if you're a consumer worried about having your card stolen.

If you're a business, it's a bug. Ideally, you would prefer to not even accept credit card payments and only accept cleared funds, but since you'll potentially lose out on business by not accepting credit card payments, you have to take the risk sometimes.

Reversibility does not reduce the incentive to commit fraud, it just enables it. People can use stolen credit cards to purchase real goods, and the seller usually ends up footing all of the cost.

Bitcoin puts business first. You don't need to depend on Visa doing their (useless) fraud investigations anymore. You take payment, and you decide whether or not to return it. Anyone who isn't willing to provide the money up front can pay the additional escrow fee.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by vincnetas on Friday September 28, 2018 @02:27AM (#18091427)
What about the cases when bad guy takes the business role. Bad guy opens a fake store and start selling non existing products online. So in this case irreversibility is enabling the fraud.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Friday September 28, 2018 @05:06AM (#18091952)
People not being responsible with their money is enabling the fraud.

If some random stranger in the street asked you to hand them some money in return for a product you want which they will send you in the post, are you gonna cough up the cash?

Why would you do so for a stranger on the internet without taking the necessary precautions?

I like the fact that you get to chose your escrow and are not dependant on Paypal, which is a terrible escrow because they have an entrenched buyer bias.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by dan1234 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:41PM (#18089026)
As a consumer, why would I choose Bitcoin when it gives me less protection than Visa/MC?
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by OiNG on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:07AM (#18090987)
i think this is a pretty important question to ask, since most people are buyers and not sellers. while things like inflationary currency and privacy are important, im skeptical that they are big enough reasons for the average person to really move the needle here.

one practical reason could end up being cost. with the ubiquity of credit cards, most businesses need to bake in the credit card fee and chargebacks into the cost of their goods. its possible that some buyers would be willing to forgo the buyer protection in exchange for a discount on some purchases (assuming the credit card industry doesn't lobby to make offering these types of discounts illegal...)

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by tfehring on Friday September 28, 2018 @09:20AM (#18093061)
Businesses that accept credit cards are already prevented from offering cash discounts by credit card companies’ merchant agreements. No lobbying needed.

Also, savvy buyers can already make back most or all of the processing fees that are baked into prices without giving up the convenience or protection of credit cards. Lots of credit cards give cash back or other rewards that are worth ~2% of the purchase price.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by ABCLAW on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:56PM (#18094901)
>Businesses that accept credit cards are already prevented from offering cash discounts by credit card companies’ merchant agreements. No lobbying needed.

This is false in most jurisdictions.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:43PM (#18089046)
Because it allows you to save money without it losing value in the long term. That is, bad government policy cannot reduce the value of your Bitcoin by printing more of it.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by MereInterest on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:05PM (#18089944)
Again, that is a feature, not a bug. Inflationary currency means that you need to invest money, not just sit on it. Deflationary currency means that an investment must provide returns more than what would be gained by just sitting on it.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by corv on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:46PM (#18090145)
Ergo inflation tends to cause malinvestment as savers want to protect as much value as possible, whereas deflation is more likely to incentivize productive investments.

After all if deflationary currency is worth more tomorrow, one wants to make sure an investment in the future is sustainable.

Notably one is especially interested to invest in a deflationary economy because the gains are multiplicative.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by badge on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:31AM (#18091094)
Bitcoin has a higher inflation rate than USD.

  Bitcoin inflation rate per annum: 3.87% 
  USD Current inflation rate for the United States is 2.7%.
Early in Bitcoin history, by design Bitcoin went though a period of hyperinflation where Satoshi and a few users acquired most of the coins in circulation.

Aprox 4.11% of Bitcoin users (addresses) control 96.53% of all bitcoins in circulation.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by erfgh on Friday September 28, 2018 @05:29AM (#18092056)
Inflation is not calculated the way you think it is calculated.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by badge on Saturday September 29, 2018 @05:16AM (#18099450)
Point being the Bitcoin supply is increasing at a rate higher than fiat.

What is that called? It's not deflation.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:41PM (#18090114)
Only people who have enough money to invest can do so. For the low-earner, it becomes near impossible to save up for investment because the savings either need to be devalued or put into risky investments.

Saving is a perfectly viable choice. If someone wants to save, it is not for you or your cronies to tell them they can't, or that you must shave your cut off their savings each year.

It's a myth that people won't spend. People will save the good money and spend bad money. The bad money is still getting spent, but of course, it's constantly losing its value.

The difference is the perspective on how money should be spent. Savers are low time preference people. They would rather spend their money on the future, on things that last. High time preference proponents on the other hand, only care about the next quarter, will cut corners to maximize their short term profit, and will spend their profit on cars and other depreciating assets to avoid paying the tax on their profits. They also build products which are intended to fail, so that the consumer has to buy the upgrade in a few years.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by khuey on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:57PM (#18089153)
Even assuming that's all true, that's only a reason to use it as a store of value. The comment you responded to is asking why use it as a medium of exchange?
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by Karunamon on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:52PM (#18090375)
- Privacy. Yes the blockchain might be public, but good luck tying transactions to identities for selling my purchasing habits, or most other purposes outside of state actor law enforcement. (And even that is arguable with attention to opsec)

- Uncensorability. I can pay whoever I want whatever I want, with no third party able to insert themselves between me and the recipient (or dictate who can send or receive money) for any purpose.

- Irreversibility. Yes, often held up as a weakness, but has its uses. Not all transactions are physical merchandise where a third party enforcing refunds is useful.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by nradov on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:20PM (#18090743)
The government is perfectly capable of sending men with guns to forcibly censor or reverse your transactions. Blockchain technology can't stop that.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by Karunamon on Saturday September 29, 2018 @11:29AM (#18100904)
I'd be willing to wager my life on the fact that the government, any government, lacks the ability, resource, and desire to muster the compute power necessary to reverse a single bitcoin transaction more than a few hours old.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by nradov on Sunday September 30, 2018 @08:45PM (#18109272)
The government doesn't need to waste time manipulating blockchains. They can simply seize your assets by force.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by Karunamon on Monday October 01, 2018 @05:22PM (#18116940)
Our government can't even stop people from distributing files containing data they don't like - what makes you think they can magically seize every single copy of a wallet that exists?
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by chii on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:24AM (#18091062)
only if you let them.

An address could be kept anonymous with good op-sec. If you know that your actions are going to attract the ire of some people with guns, you will practise op-sec.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by nradov on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:07AM (#18091227)
Whatever you say Mr. Secret Agent Man. I'm sure you're a real expert on "op-sec", much better than the FBI or Treasury Department.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by Karunamon on Saturday September 29, 2018 @11:30AM (#18100912)
Because government agencies would never mislead the public as to the nature and capabilities of their technical offensive capability?
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by CaptainZapp on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:54AM (#18091354)
- Privacy

Well, what's wrong with cash?

- Uncensorability

Well, what's wrong with cash?

- Irreversibility

Well, what's wrong with cash?

Except for the fact that cash is issued by the "evil" government your points provide zero reasons why I should prefer crypto "currencies" over cash.

And that's a purely ideological stance.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by Karunamon on Saturday September 29, 2018 @11:28AM (#18100896)
Cash doesn't work beyond a range of a few inches? Carrying bitcoin isn't likely to get me stopped by law enforcement? The nature of bitcoin makes seizing it very difficult (given more than one person with the same wallet?)
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by badge on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:25AM (#18091064)
Each of those marketing claims of Bitcoin are not true.

-Privacy: See the recent example where the state sponsored espionage involving sophisticated hackers had their activity traced though Bitcoin's blocktchain transaction log.

Even Monero's XMR is prone to statistical analysis to unmask users:

https://content.sciendo.com/view/journals/popets/2018/3/arti...

https://www.wired.com/story/monero-privacy/

A more serious question will be what happens when the laws catch up with users using a system designed for money laundering, tax evasion, and enabling black markets?

-Uncensorability

The software which enables blockchains and proof of work is susceptible to attacks by motivated state level attackers, so far only smaller blockchains have been targeted (presumably by rival groups with expendable mining resources).

A much easier censorship attack occurs at lower network levels.

  One important point: if we actually include all 7 billion 
  people on the earth, most of whom have zero BTC or 
  Ethereum, the Gini coefficient is essentially 0.99+. And  
  if we just include all balances, we include many dust 
  balances which would again put the Gini coefficient at 
  0.99+. Thus, we need some kind of threshold here. The 
  imperfect threshold we picked was the Gini coefficient 
  among accounts with ≥185 BTC per address, and ≥2477 ETH 
  per address. So this is the distribution of ownership 
  among the Bitcoin and Ethereum rich with $500k as of July 
  2017.


  In what kind of situation would a thresholded metric like 
  this be interesting? Perhaps in a scenario similar to the 
  ongoing IRS Coinbase issue, where the IRS is seeking 
  information on all holders with balances >$20,000. 
  Conceptualized in terms of an attack, a high Gini 
  coefficient would mean that a government would only need 
  to round up a few large holders in order to acquire a 
  large percentage of outstanding cryptocurrency — and with 
  it the ability to tank the price.

  With that said, two points. First, while one would not 
  want a Gini coefficient of exactly 1.0 for BTC or ETH (as 
  then only one person would have all of the digital 
  currency, and no one would have an incentive to help boost 
  the network), in practice it appears that a very high 
  level of wealth centralization is still compatible with 
  the operation of a decentralized protocol. Second, as we 
  show below, we think the Nakamoto coefficient is a better 
  metric than the Gini coefficient for measuring holder 
  concentration in particular as it obviates the issue of 
  arbitrarily choosing a threshold.


  ...However, the maximum Gini coefficient has one obvious 
  issue: while a high value tracks with our intuitive notion 
  of a “more centralized” system, the fact that each Gini 
  coefficient is restricted to a 0–1 scale means that it 
  does not directly measure the number of individuals or 
  entities required to compromise a system.


  Specifically, for a given blockchain suppose you have a 
  subsystem of exchanges with 1000 actors with a Gini 
  coefficient of 0.8, and another subsystem of 10 miners 
  with a Gini coefficient of 0.7. It may turn out that 
  compromising only 3 miners rather than 57 exchanges may be 
  sufficient to compromise this system, which would mean the 
  maximum Gini coefficient would have pointed to exchanges 
  rather than miners as the decentralization bottleneck.


  Conversely, if one considers “number of distinct countries 
  with substantial mining capacity” an essential subsystem, 
  then the minimum Nakamoto coefficient for Bitcoin would 
  again be 1, as the compromise of China (in the sense of a 
  Chinese government crackdown on mining) would result in 
  >51% of mining being compromised.
- Irreversibility

Again, PoW is not immune to "Irreversibility" it actually constantly has a known attack surface for reversing transactions and double spending. The only thing preventing it is so far no only a limited amount of attacks on smaller blockchains have taken place.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by swift532 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:15PM (#18089285)
If it's truly more useful for businesses, you might get a discount. Or maybe just because you like freedom.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @07:38PM (#18089826)
As a good example of getting a discount, I've made several purchases through purse.io and saved plenty of money. A proper immediate and legal use-case, that people can exchange their otherwise illiquid Amazon credits for Bitcoin by taking a small loss.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by patio11 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:44PM (#18090592)
Purse still offers 15%+ spreads on their homepage.

Do you know who is willing to sell a cash equivalent for a 15% discount to face value? A carder. The 15% is their payment for services rendered.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by CaptainZapp on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:51AM (#18091345)
Because it allows you to save money without it losing value in the long term.

That has yet to be seen. Except for true believers I yet have to find a serious economist who suggests crypto currencies as a store of value due to its volatility.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by mythrwy on Thursday September 27, 2018 @05:52PM (#18089104)
Unless you buy at the wrong time, then it loses a lot of value quickly.

The international decentralized non-government issued aspects of cryptocurrencies are cool though.

As many scams as are in the space, there really is a seed of a neat idea.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:04PM (#18089204)
I made the point of specifying long term (by this, I mean say 5 years). Bitcoin is unpredictable short-term because demand can change significantly on a day to day basis, where supply is predictable. If you take any point in the bitcoin history, and check its value compared to 3 years earlier, there is no point where value was lost over a 3 year period.

Also, another way to look at it, is that your Bitcoin will be worth exactly the same in Bitcoin in three years. The bitcoin you own as a proportion of the total supply is fixed. Compared to fiat markets, the proportion you own to what is printed is declining year on year.

Bitcoin will eventually become not less volatile, but involatile. This is because you won't be measuring its value in USD, but you will be measuring the value of USD in Bitcoins.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by blotter_paper on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:36PM (#18090335)
>Bitcoin will eventually become not less volatile, but involatile. This is because you won't be measuring its value in USD, but you will be measuring the value of USD in Bitcoins.

Accepting a hypothetical future where other currencies are generally compared against bitcoins, bitcoins would still not be "involatile." While markets tend to use one currency as a reference point for another, there are other reference points available. Economists often use a basket of staple goods, like milk and eggs, to get a sense of how much the dollar has fluctuated in value. As you're aware Bitcoin was designed to be deflationary. If we expect human population to rise, and bitcoins to be stagnant in number while remaining a cornerstone of the economy, our hypothetical future should see the value of bitcoins continuing to grow in the long term.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by nradov on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:21PM (#18090757)
Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by avn2109 on Thursday September 27, 2018 @08:54PM (#18090176)
>> "...bad government policy cannot reduce the value of your Bitcoin by printing more of it."

The spirit of your comment is totally true, but I have a pendatic (though vitally important!) objection.

Governments in most countries don't create money and government policy in general neither controls nor influences money creation; instead, money is created by private companies (aka "banks") or a consortium of private companies (aka the owners of "central banks.")

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Thursday September 27, 2018 @09:04PM (#18090212)
You're right, but on paper at least, the government sets the rules by which the central bank operates. However, we all know that the governments have been bought and paid for by the banks for a long time now.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by solotronics on Friday September 28, 2018 @12:37AM (#18091123)
legitimate question. I store my long term wealth as BTC (have done this for years) with private keys split between multiple physical locations. I spend with a credit card and sell BTC to pay it off each month.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by vbezhenar on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:24PM (#18089360)
Because you're paying for all the fraud around you. It's like insurance. You're guaranteed to lose money.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by DINKDINK on Thursday September 27, 2018 @06:47PM (#18089548)
All of your credit card transactions leak more and more of your PII data to the world. CC also sell all of your financial transactions to third parties. Have you factored in the cost of identity theft that results from you paying with a credit card to the value of being able to reverse that $20 ticket? Unless your identity (and the time spent rectifying it) is worth less the total aggregate of all the reversible transactions, you shouldn't be using a credit card (rationally speaking)
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by amalcon on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:58PM (#18090647)
Bitcoin, on the other hand, leaks your entire transaction history to the world. Hardly an improvement.
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by notyourday on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:06PM (#18090442)
Identify theft from a credit card payment?! Jesus, did LifeLock's commercials start to rub off on HN crowd?
Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by CaptainZapp on Friday September 28, 2018 @01:48AM (#18091333)
You don't need to depend on Visa doing their (useless) fraud investigations anymore.

I can't say if their fraud investigation is useless or not.

In those (rare) cases were my card was charged fraudulently charges were reversed immediately and (except when they issued a new card) I never heard back.

From my perspective their fraud investigation is very effective.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by sparkie on Friday September 28, 2018 @03:22AM (#18091599)
That was basically my point.

The fraud protection works from the consumer side. It is useless from the business side, where no amount of evidence will convince them that you took a payment legitimately.

Paypal are the same. They side with the buyer 99% of the time. No proper fraud investigation is even done.

Re:Coinbase Wants to Be Too Big to Fail by Nursie on Friday September 28, 2018 @05:08AM (#18091960)
> If you're a business,

Only if you think that people would still spend their money with you without it.

A lot of folks (myself included) would be far, far more reluctant to spend money with smaller players or new businesses without the layer of protection.

> Reversibility does not reduce the incentive to commit fraud

Of course it does - merchants have been committing fraud since the dawn of time. It's a constant throughout history. Look up "Caveat Emptor" sometime.