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Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by coffeemug on Sunday September 16, 2018 @11:55PM (#18003088)
> If you happen to be the hapless person who is innocently trying to make the company successful and who is not paying attention to where the money "should" flow, it can be quite painful for you.

It can be a painful, frustrating, degrading, and ultimately extremely valuable lesson.

It's especially difficult if you're naive because everyone around you is talking about metrics and OKRs, you agree on OKRs with people, and everyone seems to be working toward their OKRs. Everything seems so objective! It takes quite a bit of experience to internalize that (a) metrics have a lot of momentum and lag, (b) shit changes too fast anyway, (c) managers will move teams/groups way before the goals materialize, and (d) by the time they've moved nobody will remember what happened two quarters ago.

So while everyone is talking about the OKRs, nobody who isn't hopelessly naive actually cares about them (beyond the top line stuff executives see). Your manager doesn't care at all if you meet your objectives. They just want to look good until they can move to bigger responsibilities. Sometimes that happens to align with meeting explicit objectives, but quite often there is no alignment at all.

The people who understand the covert goals will do well very well for themselves (at least until the future eventually catches up to them). The people who naively work on their OKRs usually will not.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by itronitron on Monday September 17, 2018 @12:09AM (#18003146)
please write a book on this, or post a link to the book that you have written :)
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by coffeemug on Monday September 17, 2018 @12:43AM (#18003253)
I'm unlikely to write a book, but here are a few more tidbits that come to mind.

Re the above -- I don't mean to imply that any of this is malicious or even conscious on anyone's behalf. I suspect it is for a few people, but I bet most people could pass a lie detector test that they care about their OKRs and the OKRs of their reports. They really, really believe it. But they don't act it. Our brains are really good at fooling us! I used to think that corporate politics is a consequence of malevolent actors. That might be true to some degree, but mostly politics just arises. People overtly profess whatever they need to overtly profess, and then go on to covertly follow emergent incentives. Lots of misunderstandings happen that way -- if you confront them about a violation of an agreement (say, during performance reviews), they'll be genuinely surprised and will invent really good reasons for everything (other than the obvious one, of course). It's basically watching Elephant In The Brain[1] play out right in front of your eyes.

Every manager wants to grow their team so they can split it into multiple teams so they can say they ran a group.

When there is a lot of money involved, people self-select into your company who view their jobs as basically to extract as much money as possible. This is especially true at the higher rungs. VP of marketing? Nope, professional money extractor. VP of engineering? Nope, professional money extractor too. You might think -- don't hire them. You can't! It doesn't matter how good the founders are, these people have spent their entire lifetimes perfecting their veneer. At that level they're the best in the world at it. Doesn't matter how good the founders are, they'll self select some of these people who will slip past their psychology. You might think -- fire them. Not so easy! They're good at embedding themselves into the org, they're good at slipping past the founders's radars, and they're high up so half their job is recruiting. They'll have dozens of cronies running around your company within a month or two.

From the founders's perspective the org is basically an overactive genie. It will do what you say, but not what you mean. Want to increase sales in two quarters? No problem, sales increased. Oh, and we also subtly destroyed our customers's trust. Once the steaks are high, founders basically have to treat their org as an adversarial agent. You might think -- but a good founder will notice! Doesn't matter how good you are -- you've selected world class politicians that are good at getting past your exact psychological makeup. Anthropic principle!

There's lots of stuff like this that you'd never think of in a million years, but is super-obvious once you've experienced it. And amazingly, in spite of all of this (or maybe because of it?) everything still works!

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Elephant-Brain-Hidden-Motives-Everyda...

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by ido on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:08AM (#18005057)

    There's lots of stuff like this that you'd 
    never think of in a million years, but is 
    super-obvious once you've experienced it. 
    And amazingly, in spite of all of this (or 
    maybe because of it?) everything still works!
I think it's because like with many other issues, we are not really in such a resource-constrained environment as the free-market advocates will make you believe ("every company below peak efficiency will quickly and ruthlessly have their lunch eaten and go out of business").

According to the first link I could find (https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-american-economy-during-worl...) in 1945, 37% of American GDP (and almost 90% of government spending) was spent on the war. And yet basically everyone was still housed and fed with 1945 tech on only the remainder.

There's a lot of fat for these inefficiencies to feed on before (and if) they kill the organism. That's also why there are so many bullshit jobs around that the world would actually be a better place without.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by nodesocket on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:38AM (#18003679)
Thanks for the great insight, but I also have to admit it is incredibly disheartening and bleak. I truly think silicon valley is not a good place for the human psyche as a whole. Quite honestly it breeds negativity, envy, imposter syndrome, which all turn into depression.

It's cliche, but some of the happiest people are farmers, construction workers, or people who physically work on tangible things. Also, I feel people in the bay area compared to the south where I now live are perpetually unhappy and outraged. There is more to life than work. Simple and a slower life is not such a terrible thing.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by rdco on Monday September 17, 2018 @11:05AM (#18006576)
>some of the happiest people are farmers

Farmers and soldiers have notoriously high suicide rates. One explanation is that it's caused by a lack of control. From that perspective, it's certainly frustrating to watch your company succumb to inefficiencies (e.g. politics), but as a white collar worker, it's much easier to solve than for farmers. White collar worker can move laterally to a new job or upward, but farmers are looking at selling the family farm (social/career implosion) or controling the weather (impossible).

>Simple and a slower life is not such a terrible thing.

Agreed.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by JBlue42 on Friday September 21, 2018 @12:22AM (#18037129)
For some reason, your post reminded me of this bookmark I go back to:

https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/05/09/daniel-pink-drive-r...

"In Drive, Pink goes on to illustrate why the traditional carrots-and-sticks paradigm of extrinsic reward and punishment doesn’t work, pointing instead to his trifecta of intrinsic motivators: Autonomy, or the desire to be self-directed; Mastery, or the itch to keep improving at something that’s important to us; and Purpose, the sense that what we do produces something transcendent or serves something meaningful beyond than ourselves."

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by sharmi on Monday September 17, 2018 @01:02AM (#18003345)
Wow, that is so depressing on so many levels but thanks for calling it out and educating us clueless ones.
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by coffeemug on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:11AM (#18003592)
It's more helpful to look at it as a social scientist. This is what can be empirically observed about the behavior of a large group of humans under these very specific conditions. It's not good or bad in the same sense that chemistry isn't good or bad. It just is, and can actually be quite fascinating if you look at it from that light!

It's also magical that given all this, everything still works! The products get shipped, the people get paid, the world benefits! Think of it this way -- human behavior is much weirded than one would naively expect, and we manage to self-organize to accomplish all this crazy stuff! Isn't that pretty cool?

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by ericd on Monday September 17, 2018 @07:53AM (#18004981)
I'd say that it's also a big part of the reason so much of what get shipped is incredibly mediocre, though, and why small teams of dedicated people that manage to ship generally seem to ship the highest quality products.
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by ido on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:12AM (#18005089)
I've first hand experienced teams of 4 people achieve higher output (both in quality and velocity) than teams of a dozen+.
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by pjc50 on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:10AM (#18005078)
> professional money extractor

It's strange how SV geeks as a class will generally skew libertarian and wheel out lots of free market arguments, but haven't read Coase nor thought about how this applies within an organisation. Of course they're money extractors, that's what you've selected and that's what your culture prizes - you were just hoping they'd turn the money-extraction skill only against people outside the organisation. It's not even necessarily a bad thing, every successful startup needs a bit of this to get money from investors and make their first sales of a not-really-existing product.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by mikekchar on Monday September 17, 2018 @06:42PM (#18010748)
I think this is very true, but it's worth pointing out to people. A lot of people don't think it through. You get technical people who are really passionate about their work. Additionally, they want to get rich. They think SV is the perfect marriage -- do amazing technical work and get rewarded with riches. The reality is that the money attracts a lot of people who are completely uninterested in anything but money. It's obvious if you think about it, but many people don't think about it.
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by itronitron on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @12:42AM (#18012519)
>> People overtly profess whatever they need to overtly profess, and then go on to covertly follow emergent incentives.

This is a universal truth, and it is probably the main reason why a company needs a well defined mission, vision, and core values. They provide a way for individuals' emergent incentives to align toward a common goal.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by joshenders on Monday September 17, 2018 @01:54AM (#18003530)
nailed it
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by passiveincomelg on Monday September 17, 2018 @07:52AM (#18004974)
I believe this one should be relevant to your interests. Best non-fiction book I've ever read.

https://leanpub.com/developerhegemony

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by laurentl on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @12:19PM (#18016564)
I was about to link to the Opportunist / Idealist / Pragmatic blog post but this is even better.
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by tzmudzin on Monday September 17, 2018 @09:27AM (#18005718)
The Dictator's Handbook, by de Mesquita & Smith:

https://www.amazon.de/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Pol...

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by nazgulnarsil on Monday September 17, 2018 @12:46AM (#18003267)
The Ropes to Skip and the Ropes to Know
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by coffeemug on Monday September 17, 2018 @12:50AM (#18003285)
Is the book worth reading in your opinion? Which edition would you recommend (earlier editions are sometimes less pc than the latter ones, and therefore contain more/better information)?
Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by r3vo on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:58PM (#18019069)
Your post reminds me of this excellent post on metagames.

https://www.epsilontheory.com/too-clever-by-half/

The naive employee you mention who strives towards OKR completion wins the game, but loses the metagame of corporate ladder climbing.

Re:Ask HN: What is the dark side of working at a successful ... by andruby on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:42AM (#18012750)
This sounds true for startups and "established" organisation alike.