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Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by chrissnell on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:20AM (#17987831)
The ship sailed on low-density suburbs 60 years ago. We're past the point of return on those. Outside of San Francisco, Manhattan, and downtown Chicago, most people live in the 'burbs and that's not changing. We will be living with this housing stock for decades--if not centuries--to come. It's best to engineer around that reality, not to daydream of an Amsterdam-like utopia that will never happen for 99% of this country.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:27AM (#17987904)
You are far too certain. 70 years ago a prognosticator wouldn't be considered insane to say "the ship sailed on cities 50 years ago, Americans live in downtown and that's not changing". These things do change, often quite quickly.

Personally, I think the Boomers are in for a big shock when they try to sell their homes for a "fair" price, and discover that Millennials neither want nor can afford large suburban homes. Once that happens the market (and politics probably) are going to do some really freaky things.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by brightball on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:31AM (#17987937)
> Millennials neither want nor can afford large suburban homes

I see this often. Very few people want large homes when they are either single or don't have kids.

As soon as you do have kids and they start to grow to an age where they want to play outside, having space to run, play sports, be away from traffic, have their own room, etc gets a lot higher on your priority list.

You can also get a suburban home without it being "large" and still get a lot of space to go with it. People used to get "starter homes" and then periodically trade up if/when their incomes increased or they had some equity in the home.

It seems like the biggest barrier to this today is that people want to go straight to the HGTV home. I can't tell you how many people I've known who, straight out of school, overextend to the most expensive house they can afford.

If you want more house, for your money...that usually means buying farther away from density.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by crispyambulance on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:34PM (#17988624)
There's some more nuance here than "urban-jungle" vs "suburbia".

It is totally possible to live in a walkable area with urban amenities without being inside a dense mega-city. These used to be called "street-car" suburbs-- urban nucleations that exist just outside of the central business districts of medium-to-large cities. They're sort of like cities unto themselves. They're sometimes referred to as "main-street" communities.

Lots of people live in such places and don't realize it or they've managed to give too much away for automobile infrastructure to notice that, YES, it is possible to live such that not every trip necessarily begins and ends with an automobile in a parking space. This can be done in many places _without_ moving to NYC/SF/Chicago.

How much house one needs (if any) is a lifestyle decision that can fluctuate over time. People can adapt. It starts with demanding things like "complete streets" (https://smartgrowthamerica.org/program/national-complete-str...), walkability as a target in new developments and intelligent requirements for parking so that we don't end up with "ocean-of-asphalt" parking lots.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by lykahb on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:22PM (#17988516)
The suburbs have less air and noise pollution, which is good for the children but overall it's a dull and isolated environment. Playing alone in the backyard just because that is the only place where a child can go out of the house is quite sad.

In Europe the children can go to a shared park or a playground. Strolling along a street is also safe and quite pleasant when there is little traffic. There is more space and things to do than you can have in your backyard. And more importantly, they get to play with other children.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by refurb on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:17PM (#17989022)
In Europe the children can go to a shared park or a playground. Strolling along a street is also safe and quite pleasant when there is little traffic. There is more space and things to do than you can have in your backyard. And more importantly, they get to play with other children.

This sounds exactly like the US suburbs I've been in!

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toasterlovin on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:34PM (#17988633)
We live in the suburbs. Our kids play with other kids at the local park all the time. But you're insane if you can't see the huge advantage to being able to just let the kids out into the backyard.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by Steltek on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:26PM (#17988549)
I'm a Millennial (by some definitions) with kids. I don't want "more house"; instead I want my kids to have access to things to foster their independence and growth.

I have a lot of friends, with kids, who have had to look farther out into the suburbs because of home prices and inventory. And nothing in this price range is HGTV material, believe me.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by kevin_thibedeau on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:11PM (#17988394)
Somehow Americans managed to have large families 100 years ago without the palatial McMansions. You don't need a large home unless you're running on the real estate investment treadmill.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:35AM (#17987978)
You act like Millenials don't already have children, when the oldest members of that cohort are 37.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:42AM (#17988070)
Yeah, so that reinforces my point. Millenials aren't going to buy up those suburban homes.
[dead]
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:31PM (#17988598)
Shaming people for intensely personal choices is rude. Cut it out.

Your argument basically presupposes that there’s something desirable about suburban homes, and that people not buying them is abnormal. I find this both unconvincing and historically incoherent.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by brightball on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:02PM (#17988893)
My argument is that not having children en masse as a group goes against biology. It's happening in a lot of places too.

https://www.businessinsider.com/do-it-for-denmark-ad-campaig...

It's not shaming to point out a thing is happening or that it a thing is biologically necessary to further the human race. You're welcome to call it anything you want, but there's a lot of "shaming" that's gone in the other direction as well. I've watched it my entire life.

Desired home locations are just a side effect.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:10PM (#17988964)
Okay, then I’d argue that having 2 kids goes against biology. And that moving to a suburban home and schooling your kids rather than working them in the field is unnatural.

That is after all, how humanity worked for a few Millenia.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by brightball on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:16PM (#17990037)
If people don't reproduce, people stop existing.

You're arguing for the Amish.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by d1zzy on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:56PM (#17989324)
Yes, having kids is (currently) still the main way to propagate our species. It may not be so in the future and/or when lifespans increase many times it may make more sense to make much fewer kids.

Even today, with a global fertility rate of 2.5 children per woman and a population of over 7 billion people I don't think there's any need to worry about biological mandates. On the contrary, I think that in developed countries where each human being consumes much more (and consequently generates more waste) than other countries the birth rate should be heavily lowered. Of course, our economy/society may not be engineered for that but better start doing it sooner than later.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by vkou on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:32PM (#17989152)
Having access to automobiles, vaccination, running water, and anti-biotics goes against biology.

On the other hand, getting eaten by a tiger, living with ringworms, having your teeth fall out before middle age, or having 50/50 odds of dying by the age of 4 is perfectly natural, does not go against biology.

I don't think biology is a great litmus test for how we want to structure society.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by brightball on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:11PM (#17989456)
Aside from automobiles, the other examples you have are things humans have done to further the survival of the species. More advanced versions of seeking food and shelter essentially.

Which is a natural expectation of the species...

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by vkou on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:43PM (#17991235)
What if the survival of the species requires us to take steps to, over generations, reduce our population to ~1 billion?
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by WoahNow on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:14PM (#17988431)
Or maybe people realize the raising kids is an enormous cost from both money and time. Maybe it's selfish, but myself and many of my millennial friends would rather spend their prime earning and health years doing what they want rather than what they "have to" do for kids.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by borkt on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:48PM (#17988760)
Yeah, also costs are rising at an insane rate. Health care and college are both an order of magnitude higher than they were when millenials were children, and even then many of us saw our parents work hard and still not build any savings until their kids were on their own. I haven't bothered looking for it but it would be interesting to see the difference in cost of raising a child over the past century
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toasterlovin on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:37PM (#17988668)
Just do yourself a favor and think long and hard about whether or not that's going to sustain you for the remainder of your 70-80 years on this planet.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by chc on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:45PM (#17989750)
Maybe not, but having kids doesn't seem particularly more likely to sustain them, does it?
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toasterlovin on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:50PM (#17990350)
Kids are the easiest, most straightforward way to give purpose to your life. You can find purpose in other ways, but kids are pretty much a sure bet. If you're not going to have kids, you should have at least given some thought to what else is going to keep you moored. That's all I'm advocating for.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by deathanatos on Friday September 14, 2018 @06:21PM (#17991526)
> It's because somehow, an entire generation has grown up with the idea that the one biologically necessary act to further the survival of the species...is not a good idea.

No, because they don't believe they're financially stable enough to support children[1]. Millennials have dealt with stagnant wages and rising housing costs.

(While some of the responses to that story ([1]) do indicate a desire to do things other than raise children, many of the responses indicate a desire, but a lack of ability. Additionally, leveling off the population growth of humanity would likely have benefits for the environment, though certainly some current government schemes assume infinite growth, and those will have a bad time.)

I'm personally in the "can't" not "won't" bucket. Real-estate in SV is nuts, and I will have to (as James Mickens calls it) complete the "sisyphean task" of escaping SV and its housing crisis.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/upshot/americans-are-havi...

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toomuchtodo on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:44AM (#17988089)
Anecdote of one. 36, wife and two kids. Have a quarter acre of land, a pool, and a 2600 sq ft house in a Tier 2 city for ~$200k. Why would I ever choose higher density and city living? I would not pay more for a lower quality of life (and distance means little to me, as I work from home and my kids don't go to school).

I happily bought my suburban home instead of living close to others in a condo or a townhouse.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by the_gastropod on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:18PM (#17988474)
Yep! This is the "smart for the individual, dumb for the group" type of a dilemma. It absolutely makes sense for you to do this, individually. As a society, it's rather undesirable for people to live this way. Your lifestyle is being subsidized by (mostly poorer) people living in dense areas [1], and by the externalities we all deal with: pollution from extra driving, lawn care (leaf blowers, gas powered lawn mowers, weed wackers, etc), otherwise unnecessary infrastructure (bridges, plumbing, electric lines, roads, sewage, etc.)

It doesn't make you a bad person to be taking advantage of bad policies. But cities do need to incentivize sustainable living over unsustainable suburban sprawl.

[1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/9/5/but-rich-people...

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toomuchtodo on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:46PM (#17988744)
I don't disagree. Simply price what it'll cost me to live in low density housing away from other people and I'm happy to pay. I will pay whatever it costs to not live in a dense urban core (to your points about environmental impact, we own two Teslas, have solar panels on the roof, have an electric lawnmower, and consume most of our power on site).

Sprawl is not unsustainable if you internalize the external costs, and I'll argue it'll get cheaper as mobility moves to electric vehicles and trucks, new infrastructure (with higher longevity) is built in new subdivisions instead of trying to replace 100+ year old gas, water, and sewer mains, etc.

@village-idiot: To your deleted comment, yes, my Teslas have a carbon impact during their manufacturing, but it is less than the SUV and pickup truck we used to own. It is very difficult to have no impact whatsoever on the Earth; optimize the best you can.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:52AM (#17988184)
Buying suburban for me would replace my 30m walking commute for a 1.5h driving commute, all for a yard I wouldn't have time to use with my commute. Not a good trade for me.

I also don't have any kids and won't be having them.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by chrissnell on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:16PM (#17988446)
How old are you? I was quite sure that I wouldn't have kids, either, but I randomly met a nice girl who lived in the (urban) apartment upstairs from me and next thing I knew, I was 38, married, and watching my son being born. It comes at you fast and unexpected and it wasn't at all the life-ruining thing that I was sure it was when I was 28. Here in my early 40s, my only regret is not doing it earlier.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:23PM (#17988518)
Old enough and married long enough to make me changing my mind unlikely.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toomuchtodo on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:53AM (#17988194)
Fair points. My commute is 20 minutes (long enough for one NPR podcast and a Dunkin Dounts coffee on the way), and I only go into the office a few days each month. My employer even installed an EV charger for me!
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:22PM (#17988504)
That sounds about perfect for a driving commute.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by toasterlovin on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:40PM (#17988699)
FWIW, what works for you as a childless person is not super relevant to what works, in general. In the long term, earth will be filled mostly with people who have children.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by lr4444lr on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:09PM (#17988364)
Make that an anecdote of 4 - you, I, and 2 neighbors. Also, better school quality compared to the urban core.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by notauser on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:39AM (#17988036)
Yes, but fewer people are having children, which reduces the demand for suburban living.

The suburbs also have less attraction for me as a parent. In the old days you could let your kids roam a suburb freely - now you can't. So why not live in a city? You have the same restrictions, but also a lot more distractions such as free museums.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by chrissnell on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:11PM (#17988391)
My kids roam freely every day in our suburb. They are 6 and 3 years old. Suburbs like mine are awesome: most residential streets here have no outlets and don't have a lot of car traffic as a result. My boys have friends up and down the block and we know everybody in every house on the street. It's a fantastic way for kids to grow up.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by TylerE on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:59AM (#17988268)
Statistically, it is much safer to let your kids roam today than it was 30 years ago. Violent crimes are down quite a lot across the board.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by clavalle on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:55AM (#17988229)
Why can't you let your kids roam in a suburb?
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by village-idiot on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:36PM (#17988650)
There’s an increasing social pressure since the 1980s to supervise children at all times because of “stranger danger”. Parents have had the cops called on them for letting their kids play in the yard.

Nothing structural has changed about letting kids roam, but the social side has.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by Steltek on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:20PM (#17988496)
I suppose my kids could technically "roam" but they won't have anywhere to go that's interesting. Most kids can't even walk or bike to school in the suburbs.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by brightball on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:00PM (#17988875)
Interesting is also very different for a kid. Kids get interested in bugs, the woods, forts, climbing on trees.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by vkou on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:31PM (#17989144)
In the suburbs I've lived in, there are no forts, woods, or trees that you can climb, without being told off by whomever owns the property the tree is on.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by clavalle on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:47PM (#17989250)
Ahh. I'm lucky enough that my kids have some trails, two parks, a lake, a water park etc. within walking/biking distance to roam to. Not to mention friends' yards. And roam they do.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by SauciestGNU on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:58PM (#17988860)
Busybodies who call the cops when they see children without a nearby supervising adult?
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by darpa_escapee on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:46PM (#17988745)
> Personally, I think the Boomers are in for a big shock when they try to sell their homes for a "fair" price, and discover that Millennials neither want nor can afford large suburban homes

There are plenty of foreigner investors who'd be happy to buy their property.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by Spooky23 on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:40PM (#17988703)
I get what you’re saying but just from a legal and complexity point of view, you’re unlikely to find radical change in suburbia.

It’s just like the issues with rail — because you have so many landowners, the capital costs of transforming a single family block or subdivision to higher density is really expensive or requires eminent domain, which would be politically difficult.

You can have scenarios (especially now that it’s ok to walk away from mortgages) where prices drop. Single family isn’t going away.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by sxv on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:31PM (#17989141)
> Millennials neither want nor can afford large suburban homes

Due to the economics of supply and demand, if the former clause is true then the latter clause cannot also be true.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by s73v3r_ on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:37PM (#17989685)
There's a lag in between those things where both clauses can definitely be true.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by TheTrotters on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:16PM (#17988447)
That's a false choice. Do the right thing on the margin! Allow lots of new high-density construction. Tax cars entering city centres. Extend metro lines and allow plenty of high-density construction around each station.

Sure, you won't turn Tampa into Rotterdam overnight but those changes are important and they do add up. 50 years of these policies would give us much better, even if not perfect, cities.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by adrianN on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:43PM (#17988718)
They didn't turn Rotterdam into Rotterdam over night either. It took several decades of infrastructure work for the city to become bikeable.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by enobrev on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:48AM (#17988146)
Are you saying Brooklyn, The Bronx, and the neighborhoods outside of downtown Chicago are suburbs?

If so, we may have vastly different ideas about the definition of a city.

Also, Seattle, Philly, Boston, Miami, and lots of other smaller cities are very much unlike living in the suburbs.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by marssaxman on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:49PM (#17988768)
I know nothing about the latter three cities, but most of Seattle is made up of low-density, residential-only neighborhoods, very suburban-feeling to my sensibilities - and I'm talking about the city proper, too, not including all the even-more-suburban areas surrounding.
Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by enobrev on Saturday September 15, 2018 @10:39PM (#17997042)
I grew up in Chicago. I've lived in Brooklyn, LA, Seattle, and now I'm back in Chicago.

As far as I'm concerned, there's a ton more "city" in those neighborhoods than those high-rises. Density is only one variable in an incredibly large equasion. Seattle has a good deal of its own as well. Even in neighborhoods as nice as Queen Anne.

That said, I wish most other cities had it as good as Seattle. And I wish Seattle was far more diverse than it is.

Re:Cycling Is Key to Safer, Healthier, More Vital Cities by ant6n on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:43PM (#17988719)
> We will be living with this housing stock for decades--if not centuries--to come.

I had the impression suburban homes tend not to be well-built. They may last a few decades, but that's about it.