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Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by _red on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:10PM (#17971426)
Its admirable what brave is trying to do. Practically speaking, its one of the best chance we have of creating a new internet where the incentives are more privacy focused. Hope they succeed.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by Sephr on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:27PM (#17971587)
They're so admirable that they take a 5% cut of your donations to sites you visit and replace ads with their own.

Call me crazy, but in no future can I imagine anyone willingly paying their browser vendor for anything. Brave isn't the future, it's yet another cash grab.

The real future is fully-decentralized websites, and it doesn't require new browsers.

Edit: Fixed inaccuracy pointed out by Brave developer

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by jonathansampson on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:14PM (#17972101)
You're 100% incorrect; the ad blocker is on by default. And Brave doesn't show any ads by default. I would like to invite you to actually download the application before making such egregious claims.

Also, consider reading my response to "replacing ads" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17972072

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by brettz on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:46PM (#17974951)
How is an adblock on by default going to save the internet? No one likes paywalls.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by andirk on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:11PM (#17975079)
Content creators get paid via Basic Attention Token. Wow ppl reply without reading anything. BAT is all about attention. Pay attention!
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by zormino on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:56AM (#17976172)
But what if I'm not interested in these particular digital tokens out of the pool of thousands? I get they have a dollar value associated with them, but I don't want them. I want exactly 0 of them. I want 0 pretend cash tokens of any kind. Why would the browser vendor get to decide this on my behalf?
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by brettz on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:51PM (#17975286)
I prefer not paying for content, which includes micro-transactions. I don't think I'm alone on that sentiment. If publishers won't get enough "BAT" through micro-transactions, the content will end up behind a paywall.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by Filligree on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:53PM (#17971871)
> The real future is fully-decentralized websites, and it doesn't require new browsers.

Let's say I want to run a forum. Something equivalent to, hmm, https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/

How do I do that as a decentralized website?

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by doublec on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:07PM (#17972680)
Both ZeroNet and Freenet have decentralized forums. Freenet's forum is called FMS. They have decentralized microblogging too - ZeroMe on ZeroNet and Sone on Freenet. This is a post I wrote about ZeroNet's decentralized microblogging: https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2017/10/12/zerome-decentralized-mi...
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by Filligree on Thursday September 13, 2018 @07:21AM (#17977708)
Moderation is a must, unfortunately. Matters of trust make it difficult to run code on the users' computers, even if NAT and so forth didn't get in the way.

I like the vision of decentralized computing, but I'm afraid it'll be at minimum very inefficient, and possibly infeasible.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by doublec on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:01AM (#18012587)
ZeroNet has moderation in that site owners can remove posts. Users can self moderate via mute/block.

Freenet's FMS allows moderation using a web of trust. You provide trust to users pseudo-anonymous identities. And you can choose to trust who they trust. Trust scores are computed and any identity below a level will not be seen by your identity.

Freenet's Sone has similar functionality using a web of trust plugin (FMS has its own trust implementation) that can be used by other plugins.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by fixermark on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:57PM (#17971915)
Hypothetically, you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection).

But that will have implications for latency of post updates, security, and complexity of maintaining the system.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by munificent on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:10PM (#17972060)
> you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection).

That was effectively funded by taxpayers by way of universities.

Maybe the answer is public funding for online content, but we should be clear about it. This is an economic problem, not a technical one. Federation might slice the economic problem into smaller pieces, but they still need to be paid for.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by setr on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:25PM (#17972236)
Slice it down enough, and the average user can donate without much issue

Slice it down even further, and it can simply be the cost of entry. In the same fashion that P2P sharing communities usually require that you make X gb of data available before you can join, or closed torrent communities require an even seed/leech ratio, your federated network can require that you allow upload and 10gb of hard drive space to use (or vary based on usage or something)

Distribute the cost to the point that for any given person the cost is negligible is the ideal.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by mverwijs on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:24PM (#17972225)
The GP did ask a very technical question, without any requirement stated on profitability.

The example used (Sufficient Velocity) does not appear to be profit-based either.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by 3pt14159 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:16PM (#17972119)
Eh. My vision is something more like Twitter.

At the very core it comes down to whether or not people will have always-connected device that can do simple tasks for them. Imagine a layered webs-of-trust from Layer 2 up. Person P1 can trust router R1 (the one they use at home) to accept messages for them. They follow P2, P3, P4 on this future Twitter. P2 may entrust their friend's router. To deliver messages from internet piece to internet piece you use the WoT to make sure that the packets you are sending are from trusted computers. Some institutions, like banks, say, may be more forgiving than others because they have a profit incentive, so if your home computer gets hacked they may disallow your packets for a while, but once you get a fixed computer you're off to the races again.

Forums could be done in a multitude of ways, but what you are primarily asking for is for open forums. But it isn't possible to secure an open forum. We see this over and over again as spammers push their garbage down everyones throats or gloss it up by astroturfing. We can have relative anonymity, for example, Person P1 signs trust to Alias A5. We could even use something more complicated like what Monero does, but I worry at some point it will just turn into another form of money and that is antithetical to the whole model which should harshly punish people and devices that supply trust for cash.

Anyway, I know its a bit abstract, but you could have a forum. And it could be more or less realtime (since I'm getting updates pushed to my own device) but you're right, it is way more complicated and wouldn't truly be the same thing.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by chucky_z on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:39PM (#17972385)
Not quite identical, but you mostly just described mastodon.

https://joinmastodon.org/

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by 3pt14159 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:36PM (#17975218)
Yeah, there you go. I'm finding it harder to keep track of everything these days. Thanks for linking.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by kodablah on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:08PM (#17972034)
> How do I do that as a decentralized website?

Well, depends on what you mean by decentralized and whether you meant distributed instead. If your use case allows centralization that you control, just put it on your always-on home computer and expose it as an onion service over Tor. The more infrastructure requirements you have (e.g. HA, load balancing, backups, etc) the larger the burden of course.

Of course, if it must be distributed/decentralized using others' resources (beyond just disk space), this is not a very mature area and the app has to be written to take advantage of the limited options that do exist.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by amelius on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:28PM (#17972927)
The question is more how to monetize it without annoying the users with ads and/or paywall.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by Aardwolf on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:07PM (#17972016)
Some sort of "chain" of messages, hmmmm

A blockchain!

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by nohnce on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:39PM (#17971696)
It seems to me that a lot of tech companies do slightly shady things under the guise of social progress and what not. It's the gateway to market share, then "dominance" to dictate whatever they want. While challenging Google is important, it's a good PR move nonetheless.

Brave is also built on top of Chromium. What ramifications that might have I'm not sure.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by jonathansampson on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:12PM (#17973931)
Chromium is a tool; how you use it is up to you. Brave removes any parts that may phone-home to Google. At the end of the day though, Chromium is less important than the principles upon which the company is founded. With Brave vs Google, that's "Can't be evil" vs "Don't be evil". The difference is subtle, yet profound.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by stcredzero on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:41PM (#17973680)
Call me crazy, but in no future can I imagine anyone willingly paying their browser vendor for freely-implemented adblocking.

If the browser provides a value add through integration and support, then I could completely imagine that.

Brave isn't the future, it's yet another cash grab. The real future is fully-decentralized websites, and it doesn't require new browsers.

If we make it too hard to make a profit while protecting our privacy while it's too easy to make a profit by eliminating privacy, there's only one way that story can end.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by snaky on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:44PM (#17971749)
Or maybe the future is regular users being annoyed by plain dumb advertising to stop clicking on them, bringing CTR down too much, and the industry finally try to use some information they got in a meaningful way and make advertising not that annoying and quite useful.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by fixermark on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:59PM (#17971940)
Unfortunately, unlikely.

For one thing, the clickthroughs are certainly important, but advertising is also just impressions and brand recognition---even if somehow everyone magically stopped clicking on ads, companies like Coke and Pepsi would still pay top-dollar to remind you you're thirsty for sugar-water right now, and if you're reading websites or watching videos online instead of watching TV or reading a newspaper, that's where they'll do it.

But additionally, a very, very small number of Internet users click on ads. And those clicks float the entire industry. I'm not super-excited about any solution that assumes a tiny minority of people stop doing a thing; statistically, it's unlikely to pan out that way.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by atomical on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:39PM (#17971710)
The users are getting paid for browsing. Why wouldn't they want to be paid for browsing? They can use that to potentially pay for articles.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by dleslie on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:48PM (#17971805)
Despite what the anti capitalists wish, the future is likely to be more cash grabs.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by snaky on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:25PM (#17971575)
A new internet where $273 billion advertising industry does not exist?
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by legatus on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:34PM (#17971656)
Can I ask what the amount of money that can be made has to do with this? First of all: they make a case against a particular type of advertising, not all of them. While I honestly believe an argument can be made against any type of advertisement, that's not what they're doing. Second: if an industry is based on immoral practices, what do we care if they make a lot of money? It's like saying "we should not go against slavery, it's a $X billions industry". If they make the money by using data the users did not know they were giving, then I don't care how much money they make: they should not be making it.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by fixermark on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:03PM (#17971974)
Human weighting of incentive signals differs. "We should not go against slavery, it's an $X billions industry" isn't precisely how the US South thought about the problem, but ultimately they did go to war because they recognized that chnage in the status quo would bring utter economic ruin to a powerful sector of the populace with the political and social clout to goad the rest into war.

So yeah, "That industry makes an awful lot of cash" is useful to factor into one's thought process when one tries to reason through how one could tear it down. If nothing else, it's a first-approximation barometer of how much people will spend to oppose your efforts.

Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by legatus on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:38PM (#17973044)
Absolutely agree it gives an idea of what we're fighting. What I wanted to point out is that, whether or not they make a lot of money off of it, this fact should have no consequences on whether we allow it or not.
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by bduerst on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:29PM (#17972276)
Slavery is a bad analogy. The increased buying power of the new consumers (freed slaves) is economically more beneficial than having them locked in as non-consumers (slaves).
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by craftyguy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:52PM (#17971856)
A new internet where Brave gets a cut of the advertising, apparently. Yay?
Re:Brave files adtech complaint against Google by brandnewlow on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:30PM (#17972290)
A new internet where the major players continue making their money but have to adopt more consumer friendly practices.