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Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @08:50AM (#17968042)
> If only Linux users would pay for desktop software

I'm happy to pay for lots of things. But I'm not interested in paying for crappy software. I wouldn't, for instance, pay for Microsoft Word.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by hfdgiutdryg on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:23AM (#17968391)
Microsoft Word is a more complex piece of software that delivers more value to more businesses and individuals than (virtually?) anything that anyone on this site has ever made.

It amazes me how little people value other people's work on this site.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by smolder on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:39AM (#17968586)
You are right, Word is impressive in the same way a big factory that assembles complicated products is impressive. It's an impressive amount of work, it's complex, and it gets a lot done. But looking in the factory, you can see some things it does in house that are better left to other facilities, some machinery that is overcomplicated or inefficient, it pollutes more than it needs to, etc. But we need to hit those production targets. Changing things up would be expensive, so on we go... providing value to those who depend on it.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by whateveruser on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:45AM (#17968653)
It doesn't matter how much value Word delivers when Libreoffice Writer delivers more, for less (zero) cost. For most people, Writer is enough, and so they won't buy Word. Its just free market and competition working the way it should.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by hfdgiutdryg on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:02AM (#17968846)
Libre can't even reliably update Word documents, which is literally the only thing I ever asked if it. I don't think MS is threatened by it, and I have no idea why you're going off on a free market tangent.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by LamaOfRuin on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:32AM (#17969138)
Yes, this is a damning indictment of Microsoft's file formats.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:54AM (#17969372)
Somehow the openess of graphic formats does not make Gimp a better proposition than Photoshop, specially when handling color workflows on digital agencies.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:44PM (#17972437)
An image format mostly stores the end result of what you made.

An office document format is basically source code.

That's why the openness of a graphic format doesn't matter, but clear specifications on how to interpret an office document make an enormous difference.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:57PM (#17972584)
Somehow you missed the point that openness of graphic formats has not helped to make Gimp better than Photoshop, likewise even if Office formats were 100% open, Libre Office features wouldn't match Word.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @06:45PM (#17974191)
I didn't miss the point. I'm arguing that the two kinds of format are completely different. A graphics format is a side-effect of the actual editing, an afterthought. With an office document, the format itself is the core of the experience.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by LamaOfRuin on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @05:10PM (#17973364)
No, but it would allow LibreOffice to work with them cleanly which was the criticism I replied to (and probably allow Word to break itself less often or have 3-4 fewer implementations embedded in itself).
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by innocenat on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:22AM (#17969658)
็Really? I have had more OpenOffice crash/freeze on me in 2 years of using it (on Linux) than MS Office for over 10 years (including 2 years running in VM)

I would seriously fork money over if MS would ever build Linux version.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by checkyoursudo on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:44PM (#17971153)
People have different experiences, right?

I have never lost a document in LibreOffice, Vim/gvim, AbiWord, WordPerfect (long time ago), or OOO.

I lost a ton of documents, sometimes to the cost of many thousands of dollars, in Word. (Disclaimer: haven't used word since like 2010 or so)

People get burned, and thus jaded, by lots of different, sometimes opposing or contradictory, experiences.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:51AM (#17968733)
Ah the lack of experience with Word features...
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by checkyoursudo on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:29PM (#17971041)
The last MS Office I paid for was 2007. The last time I used Word 2007 was 2010 or 2011 maybe. I am 100% lacking in any experience in Word features, at least since then, and I hardly remember anything from Word 2007.

As a lawyer, I deal with other people's Word products all day every day. What Word features am I missing out on? I am genuinely curious and not trying to be snarky in any way.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by type0 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:51PM (#17971218)
> What Word features am I missing out on?

All those pesky macros that would allow your computer to be infected

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:03PM (#17971360)
You mean like those curl url | sh advices?
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by checkyoursudo on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:32PM (#17971633)
You can choose to install malware on any system you control, or be tricked into doing so.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:59PM (#17971937)
Since around 2007 that those pesky macros only run if the user takes the same effort as typing curl | sh.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @03:48PM (#17972485)
"Do you want your document to work yes/no?" is a lot more likely to trick people than asking them to input a console command.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by pjmlp on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:00PM (#17972621)
The actual message asks if the user wants to enable macros, while stating it is dangerous to enable them for unknown documents.

Not seen Word in a while I guess.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:44AM (#17968640)
Microsoft Word (and word processors more generally) are horrible environments for creating any sort of content in. They're great for bureaucrats who like to "do lots of work" without producing anything of use.

I cringe every time I have to deal with a Word file.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by hfdgiutdryg on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:04AM (#17968871)
It sounds like you aren't very good at using Word. Imagine if someone said "I cringe every time I have to deal with a command line."
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:56AM (#17969396)
I used Word for a long time, and learned "advanced features". It just sucks compared to real content production software like LaTeX.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by rrix2 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:51PM (#17971215)
> Imagine if someone said "I cringe every time I have to deal with a command line."

People do say this though. People have personal preferences for the software they have to use all day, and most of the time people don't agree on what that software is. And most of those decisions are driven by the type of work people do. I don't expect a lawyer or a business analyst to use command line interfaces, and I don't think they expect software engineers to code in Word...

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by hfdgiutdryg on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:50PM (#17971825)
People do say this though

And the other people, who were discussing the command line, ignore them.

The point is that you can't really criticize something when your criticism seems to boil down to "I don't understand this".

And who said anything about writing code in Word? What are you on about?!

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:49PM (#17975574)
Yes, but when I use the command line, it has absolutely no effect on other users who don't like the command line. When someone sends me a .docx, they've made a choice which affects someone else.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by ummonk on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:11AM (#17969552)
Well, a classic command line is a very poor interface to the computer. It's only good because every other interface is so bloated and indirect.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by hfdgiutdryg on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:52PM (#17971847)
A well-executed command line is a precise and efficient way to get work done. It is invaluable, and its value is unrelated to problems present in other interfaces.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by techntoke on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:14AM (#17969587)
I can use Word, but I prefer to use markup formats or LibreOffice. Why wouldn't I want a piece of bloat that doesn't even work on my OS natively?
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by com2kid on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @12:05PM (#17970158)
I customized Word with a bunch of Macros, wrote a 300 page educational book in it. I had no issues and was quite productive. I may have been more irritated if I had needed to do a bunch of complicated layout work.

For the last year Word has actually supported LaTeX for math equations, see https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/murrays/2017/07/30/latex-ma...

But aside from that, Word is great for short and medium length documents, especially ones that need group editing. Put a Word file up on Sharepoint, and now there is user friendly change tracking and commenting.

I've written multiple technical specs in Word, it serves as a great way to collaborate, so long as everyone has bought into the ecosystem.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by type0 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:49PM (#17971195)
> so long as everyone has bought into the ecosystem.

Well that's the problem isn't it, every potential collaborator who can't or won't buy it will be shunned.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by com2kid on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:04PM (#17972648)
If you are at a company that uses Sharepoint, everyone already has bought in.

The same argument can be made for any piece of software. People have to buy in, even free software requires taking time to learning it vs whatever existing workflow is in use (if any).

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by tomc1985 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @02:58PM (#17971921)
I disagree... for the purpose of editing documents from a nontechnical mindset, Word is fine.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by seabrookmx on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @07:25PM (#17974470)
Main point being nontechnical mindset.

OP points out LaTeX, but for non-technical and non-academic people, this is a non-starter. Word has an extremely low barrier to entry so it makes tons of sense for the general public and K-12 education markets.

There's a reason it's so popular and why LibreOffice and GSuite have emulated the bulk of it's feature set.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by 21 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:38AM (#17968558)
A study on Linux users found that they wouldn't pay for Photoshop or other Adobe products either, expecting them to be free. Which is why Adobe never bothered.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by whateveruser on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:50AM (#17968718)
A cursory google search couldn't find what you mention. Can you cite the source please?

I know another example that goes in opposite direction, of Humble Bundles, where Linux had consistently higher average payment than Windows, but that may have changed in recent years.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by 21 on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:51AM (#17969338)
It was a long time ago. But some searching today, official response from Adobe (2010):

> Again, we've done the research. The profits aren't there -- very few Linux users are willing to pay for commercial software. And the cost of entry is still high because of the fragmented Linux landscape. The Linux world has to change before commercial software will have reason to invest in Linux ports. And we haven't seen much real change in the Linux market in several years.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/487814

> At the height of the Dot-Com era, dozens of startups tried selling proprietary applications for Linux -- and not one survived more than a couple of years. Even Adobe, after releasing a popular beta of FrameMaker, withdrew it from circulation after a poll suggested that users were unwilling to pay for applications.

http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruc...

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by techntoke on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:05AM (#17969492)
Guys.. just trust us. We're Adobe, and the good guys. Remember how awesome Flash was?!? /s
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:39PM (#17973049)
Flash was awesome. It created the interactive multimedia web long before HTML5 existed. Many animators, game developers, and other artists started their career as teenagers working in Flash and posting to Newgrounds.

It wasn't perfect software by any means, but perfect is the enemy of good anyways.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by SmellyGeekBoy on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:18AM (#17969617)
"The height of the dot-com era" was 18 years ago, Linux has come on a long way since then - not to mention the (perceived?) quality of Windows and macOS going downhill.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by rootusrootus on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:03PM (#17970806)
Even fewer people in my extended group of friends and family are aware of Linux now than 18 years ago, and that is saying something. The only people who know anything about it are geeks, and we are a minuscule amount of the population.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:52PM (#17975586)
I think fewer people are aware of underlying software generally. Presumably there are at most four categories for lots of end-users: "PCs", "Apples/Macs", "iPhones", "Androids". (Of course, more people are using Linux in some form or other now than they were 18 years ago, whether they know it or not.)
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @04:41PM (#17973070)
For one thing there are a lot more distros, two different display servers, and several more packaging formats. Not exactly countering their point about fragmentation are we? At least we got that sound situation mostly sorted out.
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by _emacsomancer_ on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:51AM (#17968734)
Because I'm not willing to pay for Microsoft Word or Adobe Photoshop (because I don't use them) doesn't mean I don't pay for software. Lots of the software I use I don't have to pay for, but that's not the reason I use it. I use it because it's better than anything else out there. So I contribute money to projects instead. And I pay for services (like Newsblur rss reader) that run on open source stacks. And I buy plenty of games (but only if they run on Linux).
Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by grawprog on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:30AM (#17969119)
The thing I don't understand is what does operating system have to do with paying for software? If I had need for professional level software that costs money, I would pay for it whether I'm using linux or windows.

But, lot of software I need to use doesn't need to be that high level and for what I need plenty of high quality open source options exist. I have no problem paying for software, whatever os I use, if it's the software I need. But if an open source alternative with comparable or sometimes better features exists why wouldn't I use it?

And games honestly, There are plenty I would spend money on if they supported linux and i've purchased ones that have interested me.

Re:Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Wi... by checkyoursudo on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:40PM (#17971124)
I paid for MS Office in 2003 and in 2007. Apart from games, that's the only software I ever paid for (other than the Windows license presumably incorporated into the price of the handful of already-built computers I bought).

I used open source software on Windows, and I carried that habit over when I switched to Linux. I have only ever paid for games on Linux, because everything I have needed has a satisfactory FOSS alternative.

Hell, I bought a macbook a couple years ago, and I have never bought a piece of software for that either.

It's not because of the OS.

My gut sense is that open-source/paid-support model is an ideal, which also provides an incentive for the publisher to produce as good of software as possible. I don't know if Red Hat or Canonical are profitable doing that, but it would be nice if that were the way that everything could work (maybe, I haven't really thought that much about it and am open to rebuttal).

I am averse to paying up front for something that I don't really know whether it'll be what I want and won't just be a pile of shit.

I don't buy many phone apps either, for that reason.