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Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by ekianjo on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:12AM (#17946256)
> It's all about being practical.

The soviets and Mao's regimes had ample powers to do what they wanted, yet it resulted in mass murder and complete catastrophe at unprecedented scale because they made very, very poor decisions. Having leverage does not mean it fits prosperity nor crisis. Look at how soviets encouraged the killing of Kulaks which led to the great starvation (dozens of millions of deaths) in Ukraine in the following years.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by dang on Sunday September 09, 2018 @03:32PM (#17947336)
Please do not take HN threads on generic ideological tangents. They lead to boring ideological flamewars, which say less and less the larger and angrier they grow.

https://hn.algolia.com/?amp;sort=byDate&dateRange=all&am...

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by PeterisP on Sunday September 09, 2018 @01:44PM (#17946922)
The examples you give are not examples of mistakes or unexpected outcomes. Regarding killing of kulaks, it's not like they wanted to achieve prosperity and the chosen measure failed; they intended to eliminate kulaks as a social class with loss of prosperity as an acceptable price to pay to get that outcome, and mostly succeeded in their goal. Regarding Holodomor, again, there's no mistake, the starvation was intentionally caused, having these millions of deaths was part of the goal ("the Sovietization of Ukraine, the destruction of the Ukrainian national idea, and the neutering of any Ukrainian challenge to Soviet Unity."), not an accidental side effect of agricultural policy choice. These are prime examples of harsh large scale practical actions that were reasonably effective in achieving political goals through mass murder among other means.

Effectiveness is about achieving goals, it's quite possible to be very effective while working towards evil goals.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by Muromec on Sunday September 09, 2018 @01:59PM (#17946988)
>These are prime examples of harsh large scale practical actions that were reasonably effective in achieving political goals through mass murder among other means.

Yes, but it was effectively half measure anyway - they bought some time at expense of poverty and got nothing in the long run - the union is gone, poverty killed what nationalism was not able to and with fall of the union nationalism came back with 6 more millions of reasons to prove it.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by Nokinside on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:25AM (#17946314)
Those are examples of ideological action.

Chinese have not been strongly ideological after Deng Xiaoping.

Communist party is more like ruling aristocracy with privileges. Communist party is using communism the same way as aristocracy used religion to justify their divine mandate.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by jessaustin on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:45AM (#17946404)
It has worked that way for several decades, but as you say, an authoritarian state can change direction quickly. There are some indications that Xi's ideology is very similar to Mao's: total domination of everything by the guy at the top. Will it be a surprise when everyone starts carrying around a little red smartphone?
Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by PakG1 on Sunday September 09, 2018 @12:54PM (#17946704)
The interesting thing is that Xi seems smarter and wiser than Mao ever was. Well, in matters of war, Mao was really smart, and hopefully, we'll never have to see Xi tested that way because if we do, it'll probably be during a world war. But in terms of economic decisions, I'd say he absolutely tops Mao. The question is whether there's any situation where he wins in the long run because the responsibility of running China is basically being dealt a really bad hand; the issues are perhaps more complex and risky than corresponding issues when running the US.
Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by pishpash on Sunday September 09, 2018 @01:40PM (#17946901)
I highly doubt Xi is smart in economics or whatever else, even compared to Mao, and he seems partly sincere in his belief in his methods, which raises some worries. One can argue whether Mao was really ideological or just supremely egotistical and corrupted by power. After all he was rather pragmatic in the beginning.

What is true though is that institutionally China is much smarter about economics and less ideological than in Mao's era, but that is predicated on retaining institutional norms and memory past Xi and his ostensibly tactical rollback. It could totally work out in a worse way.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by evilturnip on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:38AM (#17946371)
Central decision makers generally cannot predict the outcomes of the decisions they make because the system is so complex. It's been proven time and time again that the distributed decisions of millions of individual actors ala a non-centralized economy results in a more efficient and non-catastrophic outcome.

Wherever recent history has gone awry is when a few powerful people think they know what's best for everyone else.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by Nokinside on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:45AM (#17946405)
You have completely wrong image in your mind. We are not talking about fully centralized command economy.

Just like I said in other comment, Look at the post war economies in Europe, Japan, Korea etc. Wage controls, price controls, rationing etc. still a market economy and not a command economy.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by pishpash on Sunday September 09, 2018 @01:51PM (#17946948)
An interesting line of thought. Some writers have suggested that the failure of centralization in prior eras was due to a poor state of information availability. If you consider why things like the Great Leap Forward continued till it became a catastrophe, one big reason was because politicians in locales made up good numbers for political reasons. As long as humans have been involved, this and other more technological barriers (as in the case of the USSR) have presented insurmountable challenge, but things are certainly moving in a direction that makes centralized decision making less impractical.

Note, this is still not a suggestion to do it, for humanist reasons, which I think is mostly what the Western (cultural) objection has always been. But from a practical perspective, centralization (even totalitarianism) has been accepted as the norm in various smaller and non-governmental contexts that have also involved highly complex decision-making, e.g. the corporate employer. People seem to accept this level of de-individualization, and a strong evidentiary case has yet to be put forth that full decentralization of that relationship works out better over all.

[dead]
Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by seibelj on Sunday September 09, 2018 @12:08PM (#17946501)
You are seriously arguing that consuming sugar is equivalent to mass murder ordered by the government, and that a totalitarian regime might be better than democracy? I think you have some errors in your logic.
Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by pk3469 on Sunday September 09, 2018 @12:16PM (#17946542)
If a totalitarian regime is not better than a democracy, then why is China outpacing the western world by every meaningful metric? Why are more and more governments increasingly shifting to the totalitarian side of the spectrum?

I think it's pretty obvious by now that individuals' feelings of being 'free' are not relevant to the big picture of what nation states seek to achieve. If you tasked an AI with controlling a country to achieve arbitrary goals, you can be damn sure it would be totalitarian for maximum efficiency.

I don't support or condone totalitarian governments and I value my freedoms, however illusionary they may be. But I have no delusions about what the optimal governance structure is.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by icebraining on Sunday September 09, 2018 @02:29PM (#17947110)
why is China outpacing the western world by every meaningful metric

On what meaningful per capita metrics is China outpacing the Western world?

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by fit2rule on Sunday September 09, 2018 @12:40PM (#17946644)
One bomb dropped every twenty minutes for the last 30 years, mostly on innocent people.

Hell yeah, America has a mass-murder problem. Its just ignorant of the fact because .. you know .. nobody likes to know how their powerful military is really being used.

Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by FruityFarm on Sunday September 09, 2018 @12:49PM (#17946678)
Sure, only look at the result of their worst decisions. They're doing fine now.
Re:Beijing’s Three Options: Unemployment, Debt, or Wealth Tr... by coldtea on Sunday September 09, 2018 @02:07PM (#17947028)
>The soviets and Mao's regimes had ample powers to do what they wanted, yet it resulted in mass murder and complete catastrophe at unprecedented scale because they made very, very poor decisions.

Yeah, but a planned economy wasn't the reason. The reasons were:

(a) they wanted to establish their elite rule (and that required a big show of force and getting rid of potential enemies)

(b) ideology was at play (ethnic tensions, coming up with a BS "elite class" to get rid of in the form of kulacs, etc)

(c) they started from very poor rural economies very fragile to weather, famines, and such

(d) they improvised their decisions with much incomplete data from ad-hoc established regional bureaucracies.

Those are not problems with a "planned economy", but more of those particular historical circumstances.

Neither (a), (b), or (c), or (d) are the case anymore (I mean, they still need to enforce their party rule, but not establish it from nothing).

In fact China's growth in GDP the last 50+ years has been phenomenal, so it's not like "they made very, very poor decisions" for their economy over this span.

Besides, today China's economy is not at all planned the same hard way Stalin's Russia or Mao's economy was.