News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by sharkweek on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:41PM (#17914874)
Highly enjoyed Bad Blood and recommend it to anyone interested in some fine investigative journalism.

I think the most disappointing thing about this whole saga is that (in theory) the Theranos technology was supposed to be a major healthcare game changer. It could have revolutionized testing, and would surely have saved countless lives.

But instead... here we are.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by erentz on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:00AM (#17915368)
> think the most disappointing thing about this whole saga is that (in theory) the Theranos technology was supposed to be a major healthcare game changer. It could have revolutionized testing, and would surely have saved countless lives.

This reads like such a weird statement. It never existed. It could’ve never have revolutionized testing because it was entirely imagined and not based on reality.

It’s like watching Star Trek thinking tricorders are real then being disappointed when told they’re a fiction.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by mifreewil on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @04:53AM (#17916210)
So, I’m one of Theranos’ biggest critic, since I’ve had a weird fascination with the company since someone on HN pointed out the bizarreness of its BoD back in 2013.

I think if Theranos hadn’t gone all-in on its fraud it still could have had an impact. One area was that it was actually pushing to change laws (I know it did this in Arizona) to give individual control over blood testing instead of requiring people to go through doctors and corporations. Another area was price transparency. Much like the Surgery Center of Oklahoma (https://surgerycenterok.com), it was listing all the prices for its tests right there on its website. These 2 things alone would be a major advancement in the US. Forget the mini blood tubes.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by prepend on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @07:30AM (#17916941)
The law change for direct access to lab ordering and results is really independent of Theranos. HHS changes rules in 2014 to allow patient access [0] that goes back almost 20 years.

The price listing was pretty cool though.

[0] http://www.labtestingmatters.org/direct-access-to-test-resul...

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by arcticbull on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:04PM (#17919877)
It’s also not clear that it’s a good thing; false positives lead to serious negative consequences which is why tests aren’t ordered in the first place. It’s why you don’t get a colonoscopy at 25: chance_of_false_positive * harm_of_false_positive > chance_of_detection * treatment_success until much later in life. You as an individual are not qualified to make that aggregate decision.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by crottypeter on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @06:28AM (#17916612)
I thought the individual having control (and choosing to use Theranos) was a bad thing, no?

When you're buying one blood test you won't be able to tell what it missed. If you're a medical practitioner, ordering hundreds of blood tests per month (or something) you can afford to duplicate the test when you change testing provider and realise that they aren't doing a very good job!

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by dexterdog on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @06:44AM (#17916684)
Except that most practitioners are bound to use a single lab and then run as many tests as they have to do cover regulations and insurance. Then to boot you have no idea what they'll cost until you get the bill later.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by FussyZeus on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @11:45AM (#17918996)
> This reads like such a weird statement. It never existed. It could’ve never have revolutionized testing because it was entirely imagined and not based on reality.

A whole lot of things we have today were inspired by Star Trek and didn't exist... until they were made to exist. The fault in Theranos was that they sought to make things exist by innovation on a time table, and when the time table didn't work, covered it with fraud to make the deadline.

Honestly, fuck Elizabeth Holmes and her weird ass advisors. There was so much potential here that was squandered for the sake of her ego and paranoia.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by mikeash on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @09:50AM (#17917915)
If some company was founded on tricorder technology and convinced a lot of people it was real, then it turned out it was a scam and tricorders aren’t real, isn’t it reasonable to be disappointed?
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by corvallis on Thursday September 06, 2018 @09:18PM (#17931172)
I think it's the wording that's being commented on. Maybe it's just semantics. I think the word 'disappointed' implies that there was an honest effort that didn't end up panning out (say, if the company ran out of money, or misunderstood product/market fit and fizzled, or got out-competed). I am not sure what a more appropriate phrasing would be for a fantastical idea that never existed in any form and never could have.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by amelius on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @05:14AM (#17916304)
The statement should be: if the investor-money went to an honest and capable blood-testing company instead, it could have revolutionized healthcare.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by alanh on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @08:02PM (#17922906)
oh stop it. disappointment is when reality does not meet expectations. that is exactly the case. stop criticizing perfectly valid, cogent thoughts.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by bloodhounder on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:39AM (#17915069)
Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everything.

...except when it involves investor's money.

Some takeaways after reading Bad Blood:

1. Listen to people.

2. If you're 19 with a great idea and investors willing to support it, ask for help.

3. Cumulative moral lapses will become a slippery slope.

4. If you're building something to sell to the medical industry, for goodness sake get some medical professionals in there.

5. Don't learn your leadership techniques from a Steve Jobs biography.

6. Don't sleep with someone and make them president of the company (or vice-versa).

7. Strive for diverse opinions instead of some yes men (and groupthink).

8. Fabricating results that can impact human lives will bring on the free press, the FDA, the SEC, and the FBI like a sack of bricks.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by TeMPOraL on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:47AM (#17915092)
Yeah, I'd much prefer:

Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everything. Especially investor's money, because that's what it's there for. Except when it comes to lives and health of other people. Make no compromises there, no sacrifices.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by consumer451 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:45AM (#17915305)
> Except when it comes to lives and health of other people. Make no compromises there, no sacrifices.

I have not read the book, but based on the author’s interviews I have to agree with the idea that fake it ‘till you make it should never be applied to the medical space.

When Theranos went live in Walgreens they crossed a line where limitless ambition should never be an excuse for vaporware. If accountability is at all an American standard, then Holmes should be prevented from ever being an executive in the health space. People’s lives were endangered. There is no excuse. Blood tests are not some b2b SaaS customer dev experiment.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by InitialLastName on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @09:16AM (#17917594)
> If accountability is at all an American standard

That's your problem right there. I see no evidence (from the perspectives of politics, business, religion or any other angle I can think of) that Americans actually care even a tiny bit about accountability. They're perfectly happy to say they do, but when push comes to shove its a thin sheen over tribalism ("My opponents are obviously not being held to account").

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by 76 on Thursday September 06, 2018 @04:39AM (#17924760)
"Fake it till you make it" was about confidence not building a business.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by corvallis on Thursday September 06, 2018 @09:30PM (#17931229)
It was. Then at some point it became about building a business. Remember the Lily drone?
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by alsetmusic on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @03:16AM (#17915698)
> Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everything. Especially investor's money, because that's what it's there for.

So long as your belief is justified (even if mistaken). Some people think that they can believe hard enough to make fiction a reality. It’s not always easy to tell when this is thinking outside the box vs self-delusion.

From what I have read, this is a third case. It seems to have crossed from belief, to delusion, to deliberate fraud.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by alanh on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @08:07PM (#17922937)
> Believe in something. Even if it means sacrificing everything.

I can't believe no one has caught on to the fact you are apparently making some sort of joke based on the just-now-launched Nike ad campaign with the same exact text.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by TeMPOraL on Thursday September 06, 2018 @03:44AM (#17924560)
Looks like I didn't catch on to that either; I have no knowledge of this, or any other Nike ad campaign.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by user982 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:55AM (#17915119)
My takeaway from the book differs somewhat:

1. Don't be a psychopath.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by coldtea on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:09AM (#17915406)
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by pacuna on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @08:47AM (#17917383)
I don't think people choose to be psychopaths, they just are.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by godelmachine on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @06:49PM (#17922524)
More on point no 6.

Don’t get into a relationship with someone twice your age just because he was successful at one point of time in his life. Especially if he’s not humble.

At Ramesh Balwani’s age, if he were really that experienced, a person learns to run a company without shouting madly at his employees.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by kranner on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:45PM (#17914894)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the thesis of Bad Blood just that Theranos simply had no groundbreaking new technology? (and of course that Holmes and Balwani lied and bullied their way into an insane valuation for blood-testing tech that didn't exist and was propped up by third-party commercial testing machines)
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by tptacek on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:51PM (#17914916)
They couldn't even do the basic stuff they fell back on after their groundbreaking machine failed to materialize, but they lied about it anyways and hacked COTS blood testing machines to accept fingerstick samples instead of the veinous draws they were designed to test --- which didn't work, and generated false results. They spent as much effort trying to contain stories and intimidate whistleblowers as they did on test accuracy. That'd be how I'd sum the book up.

It is a page-turner; extremely well-written.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by tomclive on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @05:03AM (#17916254)
Yep, it's a good book and reads like a thriller. I read it as a fable against 'Fear of missing out' and 'Fake it 'til you make it' culture.

I like the idea of a simple universal test and can see how the executives who bought it into fell for the fantasy.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by asveikau on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:09AM (#17914970)
I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist, but a lot of what is written about Holmes in that book reminded me of what I have read elsewhere about narcissism. For me a lot of the takeaway from the book was that while these behaviors might pass for tolerable adaptions in the context of a taxi app or a social network, when you're doing medical devices the destruction becomes quite literal.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by killjoywashere on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:04AM (#17915147)
As a pathologist working on a diagnostics project, I feel the tiniest bit bad for the Theranos team, only because I've seen first hand how the system ignores anyone trying to start up in this space, and only really responds to money. The frustration of trying to work in this space could easily crank up the gain on a subset of any given person's tendencies in such a way as to create a fatal flaw. To some extent I'm grateful I got to watch them blow up. For shame, but there for the grace of God go I.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by retsibsi on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:33AM (#17915253)
That frustration is understandable if you have a great product (or at least a truly realistic big idea) and struggle to get traction with clients and investors. But if John Carreyrou's account is accurate, Theranos was in the opposite situation. Their 'idea' was just an unrealistic goal, and their product barely existed, even at the time they were rolling it out for use on actual patients. The one thing they were good at was persuading investors and clients to give them money.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by killjoywashere on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:48AM (#17915318)
Despite published papers to the contrary, a lot of people think I only have an unrealistic goal. And I'm here to tell you the product barely exists as a single prototype. Four years ago, the idea existed only in my mind. I started the work 7 years ago.

I'm no Theranos apologist. Based on the conversation, I'm ordering the book to see if there's really any more detail. But keep an open mind. Assume people are no worse than you.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by retsibsi on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:27AM (#17915494)
I don't think this is what you meant, but just in case: I certainly wasn't implying anything negative about you or your idea. If you think I'm being too harsh on Theranos, well, my mind was open too until I read the book. :)

I don't think Theranos was intended as a scam from the start, and even when it was well into fraudulent territory, Holmes seems to have had some kind of genuine belief. (If not, I think she could have got out earlier with lots of money and less legal/reputational exposure.) But unless Carreyrou got almost everything wrong, there's no reasonable way to see the Theranos story as a tale of more-or-less well-intentioned people responding in forgivable ways to the pressures and challenges of a difficult industry, as I think you're suggesting might be the case.

It was more like a death spiral of unrealistic promises bleeding into outright lies, a cult-like working environment, bullying and legal intimidation of critics, and eventually the deliberate (or, to be extremely charitable, wilfully ignorant) use of unreliable technology to conduct medical tests on, and give inaccurate results to, unsuspecting patients.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by chris_wot on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:45AM (#17915574)
Don’t feel sorry for her. She basically made your job harder. Now everyone who invests in medical research will be less likely to believe in your prototype, regardless of its efficacy.

Nothing she did was good for anyone.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by exikyut on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @02:15AM (#17915435)
I'm mildly curious what your device does. Based on reading random past comments, it sounds like it might have something to do with cancer and embryology...?
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by Applejinx on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @06:52AM (#17916733)
There's your problem. I'm AWFUL :D

I just make a serious effort every day to be less awful, and I've learned that when I try to trade my soul for huge success I get neither. But I know what it's like to go to the bad, and I know other people will do likewise.

To me, the Theranos story feels very natural and plausible. And I hope I will always be prepared to choose poverty and failure rather than try to elbow my way into a place I'm not supposed to be.

But there will always be someone who is prepared to lie, cheat or destroy just in order to beat me over here playing nice. Because they ARE no worse than me. But I don't have to give in to my worst nature…

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by godzillabrennus on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @11:25AM (#17918811)
I’m not medical but have a great team of medical and AI folks I work with. We are also in the hematological analysis space with a startup. We are using robotics and artificial intelligence for our product and are in the medical validation phase of our solution,

Folks we speak with have a lot of passion for this space. We believe the Theranos story actually highlighted the size of opportunity for improvements in this industry.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by sharkweek on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:51PM (#17914915)
Hmm... I guess you could boil it down to that, but the specific details outlined in the book make for a fascinating read imo
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by Fnoord on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:35AM (#17915261)
I recently read this book as well, and can highly recommend it. Bad Blood is investigative journalism at its finest.

(It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually get a film adaptation... but those are always worse if you read the book.)

The reporter, John Carreyrou, also caught backfire from Theranos. Especially his sources whom he did try to protect but were stalked by private investigators & lawyers.

Given that Theranos didn't have a product it is only good news that they're finally dissolving. Holmes and Balwani ruled with tyranny and compartmentalisation which created a toxic work environment, but that does not mean all the employees were ignorant or stupid or into the scam; many of the employees were highly skilled and intelligent. Those who did know they didn't have a product (or that it was some dirty hack based on a different product) were manipulated by Holmes and Balwani.

I saw someone mention psychopath. I'm unsure what exactly these two people are. Sociopath, psychopath, narcissist, whatever it is; it isn't pretty.

When I read the book I was regularly reminded by Brian Krebs' "Sources: Security Firm Norse Corp. Imploding" [1]. They also had no real product and used compartmentalisation. Also well written (though way briefer).

[1] https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/01/sources-security-firm-no...

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by cpeterso on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:56AM (#17915361)
> It wouldn't surprise me if we eventually get a film adaptation

A film adaptation, staying Jennifer Lawrence as Elizabeth Holmes, is already planned:

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt5795144/

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by gaius on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @05:02AM (#17916250)
Very surprised she would take on such a reviled role, she hasn’t historically played villains has she? I think that movie was planned at a time that Holmes was still believed to be tragic and delusional rather than a cold-blooded conwoman with no redeeming features.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by Fnoord on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @05:11AM (#17916293)
Its not about hero or villain, its that she has a repertoire of strong female (main) characters. Katniss Everdeen is a hero for District 13, but an enemy and villain for the rest due to the survival of the fittest nature of that world.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by gaius on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @09:15AM (#17917592)
Katniss was a heroine to the viewers. Holmes is not a heroine to a anyone. And she exploited the “strong female” narrative all along the way, undermining other women.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by Fnoord on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @09:41AM (#17917817)
True, however Holmes tried to be the heroine. Having to act as if you're the heroine until the last few scenes, with some twists in between, isn't a typical villain role.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by scott_s on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @10:11AM (#17918102)
For a movie that hews startlingly close to that narrative, check out "The Informant!" starring Matt Damon and directed by Steven Soderbergh. I'm also not surprised Lawrence would be drawn to the role, it seems in line with what she does well: strong female characters. They're not always likable characters (for example, in "American Hustle"), and it also shouldn't be a surprise when an actor expands into different kinds of roles.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by Fnoord on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @10:44AM (#17918412)
Thanks, I've added them to my todo list.

First movie I ever saw Jennifer Lawrence in was Winter's Bone [1]. Goodness grace, she's such a heroine in that movie. No wonder she got typecast for the strong female roles.

[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1399683/

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by scott_s on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @10:56AM (#17918535)
Me as well, and I definitely noticed that her role in "Hunger Games" was basically a young-adult dystopian scifi version of her role in "Winter's Bone" - and I feel her performance in both made each movie.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by alanh on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @08:05PM (#17922930)
Excellent movie. Not underrated, but under-watched.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by gaius on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @10:40AM (#17918371)
Holmes tried to be the heroine.

Holmes tried to convince people she was the heroine, which is not quite the same thing

I suppose they could also make a movie about Fiorina, boldly destroying jobs and shareholder value at a rate no one had ever dreamt of...

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by cpeterso on Thursday September 06, 2018 @01:01PM (#17927651)
> I think that movie was planned at a time that Holmes was still believed to be tragic and delusional rather than a cold-blooded conwoman with no redeeming features.

The "Bad Blood" movie is based on the "Bad Blood" book, which is the definitive source documenting Holmes' frauds.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by jonathanjaeger on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @11:44PM (#17914890)
Well, in fairness, the technology wasn't there or possible (given current understanding of microfluidics), so it couldn't have revolutionized testing even if it was run more honestly. It could have harmed fewer people though if it never existed.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by foobaw on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @01:43AM (#17915299)
I read Bad Blood and was curious what she sounded like.

https://youtu.be/rGfaJZAdfNE?t=99

The book definitely gets it right.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by RmDen on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @08:55AM (#17917430)
This comment........Holmes is wasting her natural talent. Instead of running this fraudulent company, she ought to be voicing a young Darth Vader in the next two Star Wars movies.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by howard941 on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @12:43PM (#17919607)
Indeed. Check out the link for the intriguing audio, stay for the comments.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by rwc on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @06:33AM (#17916637)
It's an affectation. A weird one at that.
Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by vmchale on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @07:00AM (#17916778)
> I think the most disappointing thing about this whole saga is that (in theory) the Theranos technology was supposed to be a major healthcare game changer. It could have revolutionized testing, and would surely have saved countless lives.

Never really on the table.

Re:Blood-Testing Firm Theranos to Dissolve by beavisthegenius on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @09:34AM (#17917756)
Elizabeth Holmes committed fraud. She's a criminal.