"We're paying more for programmers than almost anyone else in the industry!" is an obvious thing a bean counter would notice and point out. Productivity is harder to measure, and all that time lost to training on the job doesn't immediately leap out in spreadsheets because it's blended with actual work.
I can't speak to development specifically, but I looked into one of Tesla's devops offerings and I make slightly more for a mid-level engineer than they offer for a senior position. I also 'only' work 40-hour weeks and my cost of living is about 20-30% lower than there.
But no employer tracks that, not even in academia...
I can’t find the reference I’m looking for, but cost associated with turn over rate due to narcissists is apparently as high as taking care is ASD. I would imagine turn over rate associated with burnouts not due to narcissism, but simply poor & short term management & vision to be at least on par.
Well they landed a rocket on a barge in the ocean so something about that model must be working right
To put it another way: If your method of writing novels is to hire an infinite amount of monkeys and put them to work on typewriters, you can't say "Something about this model must be working right, I came out of it with the complete works of Shakespeare!"
They landed a rocket on a barge in the ocean. Maybe with a better process, they could have done that two years faster, for 1/100th the cost, with no burnout. You don't know, and you can't say the model works right just because there's something to show for it.
All you know is that the process is able to eventually land a rocket on a barge. It doesn't tell you whether it's good at it.
So while it may not be the most efficient process, the overall process is much better than their competitors since they can launch for so much less money.
I don't think you can answer that question by just looking at Tesla.
The whole company seems to be operating in the "burning the candle at both ends," not just the workers at the bottom. Also, it's not just "saving money" but pushing super hard to accomplish something extraordinary, i.e. generating new revenue, not just reducing costs. Additionally, the workers are partially compensated via stock options, so they share in the success of the company even if not through higher wages alone. So I'm not sure "mistreatment" is the right word to use.
At the end of the day, SpaceX (and Tesla) are not for everyone forever. I am not in a station in life to want to join right now, but may in the future. And maybe this strenuous effort is not especially profitable for SpaceX because of the churn that it creates. But that churn IS helpful for the industry (and thus, in my opinion, society) at large because it has spread SpaceX's know-how throughout the US aerospace community and resulted in alumni founding probably dozens of companies that can leverage the lessons learned from SpaceX. But some people work well in that environment and stay long term (which isn't to say it can't be improved).
So I am glad SpaceX is the way it is, and I hope they're successful in the future. But it also doesn't have to be the model for everyone else to copy. It might not work for everyone else, nor should it be expected to.
I wonder if the constant burnout and churn keeps employees from vesting and thus ever collecting much if anything in stock?
I'm refuting the statement that "saving money by paying peanuts, grinding people down to burnout, and then constantly having to rehire/retrain new people as the old ones leave" is unanswerable in the current context based on 1 company especially because this company seems to be destroying their competition.
If they have a process proven to work, in a world where they are already doing things no one else has been able to do, changes to that process should be introduced very slowly.
Get a lot of monkeys and put them at work. They will produce something. Better have something than have nothing.
While touting the purchase cost or energy benefits, these ideas routinely ignore the overhead cost inherent in a distributed system, let alone the Fallacies [1], which is the GP's and OC's (and possibly your) point, I believe.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_distributed_compu...
If other high end software jobs are paying the same for 45-50 that Tesla is paying for 60, that’s on the low side hourly, but the low side of the high end.
75% (45/60) of 150k is still $112.5k plus presumably good benefits and some sort of equity component. That’s damn fine compensation for someone fresh out of undergrad even in 2018.
I wouldn’t want to work 60 indefinitely even for great pay, but that’s a separate issue.
Maybe I am just lucky but I have worked for 2 of the major big tech companies and came out of college making 100k+ while primarily working 40 hour weeks at both.
> 75% (45/60) of 150k
Tesla new grad software engineer total comp is 150k? Damn, in that case they are pretty close with big tech (amazon is 145k and G/FB is 165k from what I have heard). I assumed it was lower since my brother was a PM with 6 YOE and got payed 130k a year.
> That’s damn fine compensation for someone fresh out of undergrad even in 2018.
Oh totally, my girlfriend is probably going to make like 60k out of grad school. However, while it is much better than anyone besides what my finance friends are making, that does not mean they are paying well relative to the tech industry.
In my opinion, this is the biggest flaw of the system. For many investors, a company is less about what it makes and more like a process to grow their money. Even when a company becomes profitable, there's always pressure to make it even more profitable quarter after quarter.
Would you keep your retirement funds in a company that doesn't grow?
Not everything needs to grow into the sky.
It would be worse than buying a bond: you'll get the risk of equity with the returns of a bond.
(Then again English is not my first language.)
While you might need to pay more and improve working conditions, would you be more efficient given the individual staff would spend more time being productive?