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Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by xaranke on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:32AM (#17798272)
As someone who left India for the US, this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning.

More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by th1nkdifferent on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:20AM (#17798608)
I don't share the negative sentiments expressed by others in response to your question. I think things have changed significantly for the better. I'll leave you with these two images - you can decide for yourself if anything has changed:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in...

Source: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-m...

Scroll down to India's map and play with it for a while and then ask yourself whether India has changed for the better.

You may not feel the difference as much as India's villagers and poor.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by coldtea on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:02AM (#17798734)
These two images don't answer the "if it's just a facade with air conditioning" question.

This just shows that now there are more airconditioners there (well, lights).

Parent was explicitly trying to differentiate between more money/technical change and different mentality.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by iamshs on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:01AM (#17798980)
Neither do those images show severe lack of hamburgers. Transporting cows can and has lead to lynchings.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by geerlingguy on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:32AM (#17800192)
I'm on an astrophotography kick lately, so the only thing I see is "increase in light pollution". So goes progress, but it would be neat if some places found ways to advance without also leaving behind the vision of the stars that used to fascinate and inspire so many people.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by blackoil on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:03AM (#17799549)
Really impressive, particularly growth of all those around Bangkok. Is Modi effect truly this far flung, or is NASA image just of higher resolution now showing lots of smaller dots?

Considering electricity consumption growth rate is still same or maybe a little slower then the decade before I don't see much of an achievement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India#De...

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by throwaway6789 on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:31AM (#17799373)
Looking at the comparison for Kerala, I really feel sad and worried. It doesn't look like much improved for my state during this period. And everyone likes to talk about Kerala being number one!
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by danieka on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:40AM (#17798896)
I'm struck by the difference between India and Burma and Pakistan.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by yorwba on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:10AM (#17799021)
Some cities in Pakistan actually seem to fade instead of getting brighter. I wonder why that is.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hkai on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:44AM (#17798484)
You probably shouldn't. I'm in a similar situation and although back home there are all these fancy cafes, relaxed and familiar environments and great people, the significant differences become apparent only in crisis.

When it comes to police, ambulance or just having safe food, safe streets and competent government, there's a sea of difference, although it's easy for me to sit at a Hard Rock Cafe back home and think that this place is amazing.

The situation in Kerala right now illustrates this well.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by blntechie on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:48AM (#17799459)
How is the situation in Kerala different from what happened in Peurto Rico or Houston?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by heavenlyblue on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:00AM (#17798727)
Isn't getting a Hard Rock Cafe just a more upscaled version of having McDonald's move in your town?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by coldtea on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:04AM (#17798749)
Considering how India started 6-7 decades ago, after centuries of colonial rule and impoverishment, merely having McDonalds would be a great difference.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by heavenlyblue on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:53AM (#17798949)
Yeah, but neither of these create a community where you'd want to come back. It's a sign of economical progress, but is it what makes you enjoy the life in the country?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by oblio on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:46AM (#17799177)
Isn't the normal process: economic development -> social change? Economic development can happen within 5-10-15 years, while the second one usually takes 2-3 generations, so 40-60 years.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sbmthakur on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:32AM (#17798650)
> More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

Things have improved in general. But it is impossible to answer this question without knowing more about your expectations.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sn41 on Monday August 20, 2018 @03:47AM (#17798314)
Nothing has changed. The govt. has gotten better at media manipulation, and/or the media has decided it is easier to get into bed with the govt. Reliance Jio Institute has been declared an "institute of eminence" on par with IISc, and above many IITs. The industrialists hailed demonetisation. Ordinary citizens have few opportunities to enter the stock market, since it is inundated with foreign institutional investors, who may withdraw money at the drop of a hat, thus increasing volatility. There is no critical analysis allowed or taken seriously. Pre-2016, I was depressed at the turn of events. Post-Trump, Post-Brexit, I just think this is the new normal for the planet. Aggressive stupidity is the way forward.

That said, money-making opportunities are present, as they always were.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by djaychela on Monday August 20, 2018 @04:41AM (#17798478)
> Aggressive stupidity is the way forward.

Probably the most concise and accurate summary of the situation I've read. (Particularly as someone in the UK who's doesn't want to leave!)

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by heavenlyblue on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:03AM (#17798739)
To be fair, being from a Russian family and having re-watched quite a few news programmes from the 90s I was amazed at how liberal the media was back then. I did not expect that.

It's absolutely not the case anymore, but I can definitely say that the quality of the TV production was raised significantly. Well, you know where the money goes to.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hesarenu on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:51AM (#17798699)
IITs attract the best students because of the opportunity it provides. But on its own is it know for it's academics? Do they carry out high calibre research?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sn41 on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:56AM (#17798957)
I'd say they are better than Reliance Jio institute when it comes to high calibre research.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hesarenu on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:09AM (#17799016)
That does not say much.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sn41 on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:43AM (#17799167)
Sure, you're right. My original point was to point out the hypocrisy of the government policy. But you have raised a related point about IITs.

Aside from being underfunded (in comparison to global standards) there are systemic issues with IITs which make it underperform in research - first, they were designed as undergraduate institutes. The administrators constantly harangue, and block the ways of the colleagues who want to do research - for example, disallowing travel during the semester etc.

More importantly, the best PG students in India do not go to the IITs. They go to IISc or abroad. It is the PG students who do most of the research in a university, not the UG students.

Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university.

When faculty systematically underperform in research over 60 years, when many of them were good researchers before they join the IITs, and many of them continue to be good researchers after they leave the IIT system, we need to rethink.

Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time, travel freely, and spend very little time on teaching/administration. You can't have your legs in both the boats.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by neuromantik8086 on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:02PM (#17801624)
> Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time

God no. This is exactly the problem that most undergraduate campuses in the US are grappling with right now. Pedagogy (you know, the purported reason for the existence of universities when they were first established) is taking a backseat to research, with students not deriving nearly the value from college that they should be. Most newly-minted PhD candidates want to create rigorous research programs, even at small liberal arts colleges, much to the detriment of those who matriculate (and who consequently accumulate ludicrous amounts of debt).

It would be much better for academia to have an honest conversation with itself and note that some people want to teach while others want to do research, and send the research-inclined to non-teaching institutes like IAS, LLNL, the Broad Institute, etc and the teaching-inclined to work with undergraduates. The outliers who fall in the middle of the Venn diagram can choose for themselves which direction they want to go.

It also would help if workshops to develop pedagogical techniques weren't almost universally optional for grad students and the ones who do engage in them get looks for wanting to do them instead of doing research... this may be just an impression on my part, but I really felt like grad students I've encountered who prioritize teaching over publications get marginalized.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by kamaal on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:13AM (#17800625)
When you change your objectives, you change your work.

IITs are all about placements and big salary pay days. It works that way because the alumni want to preserve the value of that name on their resume, only way they can do that is continue to pay obscene salaries to their own kind. So that when they go out looking for jobs, the same thing can work in their case too.

Once you arrive here, all questions on research or doing good work et all go out of the window. You are just about marketing gas, advertising you own legend.

A few start up founders even told me they avoid hiring IITian for this very reason. They act like they are above everything, nothing you pay is enough, they always think some work is beneath them. And yeah barely stay before a project completes.

Lastly, the only thing IITians train their whole academic career is for being good at interviews and exams. That's understandable, because they only thing they ever do all life is hop jobs.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by mav3rick on Monday August 20, 2018 @11:56AM (#17800982)
"Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university."

Stanford, Carnegie Mellion, Harvard, MIT, Caltech are all "teaching universities". Most professors do research along side their teaching. Courses in India are outdated everywhere. If research is encouraged the quality of education will definitely go up.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by vkerlo on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:03AM (#17799551)
It's to be mentioned that the Reliance Jio Institute is a proposed one and doesn't exist yet.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by codeisawesome on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:54PM (#17805348)
Please do expand on that last sentence :-) what are the general principles you see?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by eahman02 on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:06AM (#17798554)
Those who don't think the way you do are not "aggressively stupid", they just have other interests. That kind of dismissal doesn't help anybody.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by King-Aaron on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:12AM (#17798579)
Personally I see it as an existential observation rather than a dismissal.

On the whole, the actions of both the voting public in many countries, let alone the politicians that they vote for, do seem to be displaying an increasingly aggressive level of stupidity. Or possibly, if not stupidity, one could more accurately call it apathy.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by eahman02 on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:46AM (#17798687)
Think of it the other way: for some people, the public has voted very stupidly for a long time, and now they are starting to get straight.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by not_kurt_godel on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @04:19AM (#17807960)
And yet those people are people whose core beliefs - or at least, the manifestation of those beliefs into policy - are, for the most part, largely objectively wrong.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by dsfyu404ed on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:32AM (#17798862)
Or politicians are starting to deliver on their stupid promises.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sandGorgon on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:26AM (#17798627)
there's no better time to come back. Do come. Its about what you can create in the world's largest democracy.

Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?

come and build. Oh and that goes for everyone else too. We have a lot of American, Brit and Chinese founders building successful startups in India.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by mcny on Monday August 20, 2018 @06:23AM (#17798825)
The difference is that the Americans, the Brits, and the Chinese can leave any time they want. I've talked to a few Indians and that tried to defend the mob that killed some guy for allegedly coming beef. More embarrassingly, they defended the police for taking a sample of the questionable meat for lab testing to check if it was beef.

I can forgive the mob. Maybe things get heated and people lose their minds. They should all go to prison for life but I can forgive them once the sentences are handed. I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef.

Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sbmthakur on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:08PM (#17801693)
Defending lynching(done for whatever reason) is sickening.

However, I don't see how that is a reason for someone "not coming back to India". Not all people from the majority religion have ganged up and decided to lynch Muslims.

India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and it is severely under-policed. This leads to several miscreants doing all sorts of bad stuff.

> Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.

What is the rationale behind this argument? The Indian state doesn't discriminate against people based on their religion or color. I am not denying criminal acts against Muslims. Investigations are on in these cases and people are being punished as per the law.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43496017

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by srean on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @03:11PM (#17821139)
> The Indian state doesn't discriminate against people based on their religion or color.

In theory that is correct. But states have the luxury of being economical with the effort they put in. The spurt in beef related lynching is a phenomenon of the current government and has been going on in a while.

> Investigations are on in these cases and people are being punished as per the law.

I assume that statement of yours is based on some knowledge. How many convictions so far ?

I can give examples where the accused got immediate bail layed out on a red carpet.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sokoloff on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:27AM (#17799355)
Why wouldn't the police take a sample of the meat for lab testing and evidence?

It would seem to be a crucial piece of motive for the mob crime; it's also unlikely that the man killed was solely responsible for the entire chain of killing, butchering, and transporting the finished beef product, so other people may be implicated as well, etc.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sidlls on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:24AM (#17799674)
Why would it matter whether the meat was beef or not with respect to motive? The crowd thought it was beef and beat him based on that belief; they didn't test the meat first.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sokoloff on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:58AM (#17799897)
WRT motive, the fact of whether it was or wasn't beef when introduced into evidence may prove to be exculpatory (if the finders of fact decide that it was justified) or may prove to be further damning (if the finders of facts decide that it was pre-meditated). I wouldn't want the police on the scene to be in the business of deciding what possibly relevant facts in the case will prove to be crucial. Collect, catalog, and preserve the evidence as best you reasonably can in a major crime case, and let the court system figure out what's relevant.

Additionally, if it was beef, there's a reason to look upstream to where the dead man got the beef and chase down those leads.

What's the external/societal cost to them taking the meat to the lab? It's not like the police not taking the beef to the lab will suddenly summon the cow back to life nor that they took the beef and tested it by eating it.

(I'm assuming from context that beef for consumption is locally illegal. That seems a safe assumption.)

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by mcny on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:15AM (#17800039)
It is not illegal and even if it were it does not, in any lawful society, justify extrajudicial torture and/or murder.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by legolas2412 on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:31PM (#17801902)
I don't support vigilantes and neither do I agree with the imposition of religious views in violation of civil rights.

That being said, you are wrong. It was illegal.

Lynching happened in UP. And sale, transport, and slaughter of beef is illegal there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Dadri_mob_lynching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_slaughter_in_India#Utta...

The police should take the samples for analysis as they did. It is the procedure I expect from them in this case.

If a bank robber was killed during a bank heist, you would still investigate who planned the robbery wouldn't you?

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by sokoloff on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:40AM (#17800265)
OK, then what is your objection to the police taking a sample of the meat to the lab for testing?!

It seems no different than taking any other piece of crime scene or crime-related evidence to me.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by alasdair_ on Monday August 20, 2018 @12:55PM (#17801545)
> OK, then what is your objection to the police taking a sample of the meat to the lab for testing?! >It seems no different than taking any other piece of crime scene or crime-related evidence to me.

It has the same vibe as checking the skirt length of a rape victim, or checking into the sexual history of someone beaten up for being gay, just to be sure they really were gay.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by legolas2412 on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:37PM (#17801965)
Wearing short skirts is not a crime, but slaughtering cows, transporting and selling beef is (in that state).

I do not agree with the laws, but the police should dutifully follow the laws.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by mcny on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:16PM (#17805526)
> I do not agree with the laws, but the police should dutifully follow the laws.

> India has a population of more than 1.3 billion and it is severely under-policed. This leads to several miscreants doing all sorts of bad stuff.

So the police is spread thin and you want them to go after dead people for allegedly eating beef? What kind of mental gymnastics do you do?

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by legolas2412 on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:23PM (#17805571)
Besides the murder, the police might also be interested in finding the illegal slaughterhouses or beef sellers.

Is following the law mental gymnastics? Should I curse the police for following procedures and investigating crimes, even if I disagree with them?

What if police decided that it was spread too thin, and did not stop me being lynched?

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hycaria on Monday August 20, 2018 @07:42AM (#17799163)
What's this story ?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by philbarr on Monday August 20, 2018 @08:45AM (#17799438)
googling for "india death beef" gives you quite a few similar stories to choose from.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hycaria on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @03:26AM (#17807732)
Then I don't understand "I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef." If it's forbidden in that state, where's the problem with sampling ?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by mcny on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @08:22AM (#17808900)
Because it is signalling.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hycaria on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @04:26AM (#17817203)
What does that even mean ? Shouldn't they sort things out ? Is it signalling when police conducts interrogations following someone's accusations then ?
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by toast0 on Monday August 20, 2018 @12:24PM (#17801260)
> Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ?

From what I can tell from afar, access to courts in India is mixed at best. A constitutional guarantee only goes as far as its enforced/enforcable.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by kamaal on Monday August 20, 2018 @10:16AM (#17800047)
>>I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

That's entirely your decision to make.

But nothing much has changed in any real sense. Some highways have been built and there is slight change in infrastructure.

But if your question is if some huge changes have come to pass, alas nothing significant has changed in a real sense.

I had to return permanently due to my parents health, but if I really had a chance I would return to US though.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by naravara on Monday August 20, 2018 @12:48PM (#17801486)
>this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning.

In the "old" India things like this would have gone on as a matter of course. The fact that such financial crimes are publicized and prosecuted, and that large industries are being subjected to professional management instead of capricious rule by the rich scions is definitely forward progress.

If anything is incentive not to move back at this point, it's the traffic, poor urban planning, and air quality. In that one respect, everything seems to be getting worse.

(Communalism seems to be rearing its head in nasty ways too)

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by rconti on Monday August 20, 2018 @01:40PM (#17802000)
I think another hard thing is that your expectations will change the longer you live in the US (and as things change in the US as well), so what would have been a remarkable improvement to you before might be "not enough".

Then again, one would expect that India is improving far more quickly than the US.

Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by hiyer on Monday August 20, 2018 @05:22AM (#17798618)
Why do you feel the US is better in this respect? The US has several other obvious advantages compared to India, but equality of wealth distribution and lack of crony capitalism don't seem to be among them.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by rayiner on Monday August 20, 2018 @09:32AM (#17799717)
You think the US has wealth inequality! In India its common for upper middle class people to have several full-time servents. Not only that, they are a whole separate class of people. They are treated like servents, not like employees.
Re:The Billionaires and The Guru: How an Indian Family Burne... by distant_hat on Wednesday August 22, 2018 @04:07PM (#17821678)
India is far more unequal than the US actually and crony capitalism is also much worse here. I've lived in the US for 8 years and would be bang in the middle class there, I have 3 full time house helps which I couldn't even think about in the US.