News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by maxxxxx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:07AM (#17775247)
"the bosses of America’s largest companies got an average pay rise of 17.6% in 2017, taking home an average of $18.9m in compensation while their employees’ wages stalled, rising just 0.3% over the year."

That's the worst part of it. Companies are split up in two sections. One that benefits from the company's success while others get almost nothing. I see that in my company. In meetings they celebrate increased revenue and earnings. When I look around almost nobody except a few top guys I see benefits from that success and instead has to wonder when his job goes to India.

There was a discussion here about increasing employee participation. I really think we should get away from the belief that only shareholders count but also acknowledge that employees and even the communities where the company has its buildings have a stake.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by freehunter on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:33AM (#17775528)
Man I hate that too. We throw parties to celebrate the company's financials if they're above target, but we don't get pay raises for it. Yet when the company is still profitable but misses revenue targets by 0.5%, we get told no pay raises because we missed targets and you're just lucky you're not getting laid off because we only made $9.95b in profits, not the $10b we wanted.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by ryandrake on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:18PM (#17777221)
I love those company parties. They're so...awkward! The big shots up on stage with microphones yelling "OUR STOCK PRICE IS UP 150% THIS YEAR! WOOOOOOOOO!!! PARTY ON!" And the rest of the employees standing around shrugging or pretending to be excited as they at least get some free food.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by nojvek on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:26PM (#17776051)
Supply and Demand. If you don’t like it, make some noise and leave to a place where you do get equity.

If you think you are truly worth that money, then build your own business.

AAGMF has becoming a massive juggernaut taking in insane amount of talent and sometimes directing them towards mundane causes.

Quitting is always an option.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by maxxxxx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:02PM (#17776446)
"Quitting is always an option"

I always said that until the 2003 downturn. Things can change very quickly.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by s73v3r_ on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:41PM (#17776227)
No. This is horribly, horribly naive. Not everyone is in the position where they can just up and quit like that. Does that mean those people should get fucked over?
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by goobynight on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:26PM (#17776696)
Should? Hard to answer and not too practically relevant.

It is certainly why they are getting screwed though. People should aggressively save, so they are treated properly.

People also sometimes willingly make themselves exploitable, through their own fault, by adding tons of debt and liabilities (children, houses, vehicles) into the equation. One would be a fool to think people aren't looking at those to assess your risk tolerance

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by s73v3r_ on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:42PM (#17776879)
"Should? Hard to answer and not too practically relevant."

Considering that's kinda what you're arguing for when you say that they should just quit, yes, I would consider it relevant.

"People also sometimes willingly make themselves exploitable, through their own fault, by adding tons of debt and liabilities (children, houses, vehicles) into the equation. One would be a fool to think people aren't looking at those to assess your risk tolerance"

No. The fault for exploitation is ALWAYS entirely on those doing the exploiting. Always. They are the ones actively choosing to fuck people over.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by aeternus on Thursday August 16, 2018 @05:24PM (#17778532)
Those people should not get fucked over but they should also not be compensated for taking risk.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by ajeet_dhaliwal on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:20PM (#17775972)
The weirdest thing about these parties is some of the gormless employees love them.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by s73v3r_ on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:41PM (#17776231)
I mean, it's at least free cake. And an hour or so where you don't have to do work.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by black6 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:58AM (#17775767)
It’s a problem of motivation, alright? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don’t see another dime, so where’s the motivation? And here’s another thing, I have eight different bosses right now.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by mv4 on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:16PM (#17775933)
What if - and believe me this is a hypothetical - but what if you were offered some kind of a stock option equity sharing program?
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by craftyguy on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:21PM (#17775986)
I don't know, I guess. Listen, I'm gonna go. It's been really nice talking to both you guys.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by felix_nagaand on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:33PM (#17776127)
Looks like you may have forgot to switch accounts.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by lkrubner on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:49PM (#17776332)
It’s a movie reference
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by craftyguy on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:46PM (#17776302)
whoosh
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by tribesman on Friday August 17, 2018 @02:54AM (#17780802)
What he means is that, discussion about this is futile, nothing gonna change and life continues.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by Veelox on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:45PM (#17776291)
If I am reading the charts on page 3 right [0] the Bureau of Labor Statistics says that labor productivity raised ~1% in 2017 while unit costs of labor raised ~2%. Going off the assumption that labor should be paid in proportion to the value they produce, wages should increase when productivity growth outpaces cost growth. Thus since that didn't happen in 2017 wages should be about flat.

Can you give an alternative reason on why average wages should increase?

[0]https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/prod2.pdf

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by grasshopperpurp on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:07PM (#17776490)
>The gap between productivity and a typical worker’s compensation has increased dramatically since 1973

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by Veelox on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:15PM (#17776576)
Thank you for providing that link. It seems like that the divergence started in 1973 and was clear by 1980. Do you have any ideas on what changed in that time phrase that caused the divergence?
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by grasshopperpurp on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:21PM (#17776643)
My pleasure! Another link from EPI explains it better than I can.

>The Economic Policy Institute’s earlier paper, Raising America’s Pay: Why It’s Our Central Economic Policy Challenge, presented a thorough analysis of income and wage trends, documented rising wage inequality, and provided strong evidence that wage stagnation is largely the result of policy choices that boosted the bargaining power of those with the most wealth and power (Bivens et al. 2014). As we argued, better policy choices, made with low- and moderate-wage earners in mind, can lead to more widespread wage growth and strengthen and expand the middle class.

https://www.epi.org/publication/understanding-the-historic-d...

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by Veelox on Thursday August 16, 2018 @01:46PM (#17776931)
I skimmed it and the closest I could get to find an answer to my question was

>Finally, it also seems worth noting that this decoupling coincided with the passage of many policies that explicitly aimed to erode the bargaining power of low- and moderate-wage workers in the labor market.

I am in my 20's I was not alive in the 70's. What did Nixon, Ford, and Carter change in that time that eroded the bargaining power of wage workers?

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by existencebox on Thursday August 16, 2018 @04:26PM (#17778168)
This is a pet topic of mine. Here are some interesting breadcrumbs, although a sister post by dv_dt above was a far better summary than I could give, there are some things I think are illuminating specifically. While not specifically from the presidents you mention, I ascribe to a theory that there were broad cultural and economic shifts that caused the results you see.

- The Powell Memo in 1971 [0]

- Rise of corporate raiding ~1980 [1]

- CPI inflection in 1970s [2]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_F._Powell_Jr.#Powell_Mem...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_raid

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_price_index#/media/Fi...

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by grasshopperpurp on Friday August 17, 2018 @09:35AM (#17782694)
I don't like seeing posts like this downvoted, as you seem genuinely curious about the issue, but to each his own, I guess.

dv_dt and existencebox hit it well - cultural more than technical. But, the cultural changes impacted policy. I've posted the following article in the past, but it provides a clear image of the issue - from one of the people who set the wheels in motion.

>But there is a theme that threads through and ties together all the strands: many of the most talented, driven Americans used what makes America great–the First Amendment, due process, financial and legal ingenuity, free markets and free trade, meritocracy, even democracy itself–to chase the American Dream. And they won it, for themselves. Then, in a way unprecedented in history, they were able to consolidate their winnings, outsmart and co-opt the forces that might have reined them in, and pull up the ladder so more could not share in their success or challenge their primacy.

>By continuing to get better at what they do, by knocking away the guardrails limiting their winnings, aggressively engineering changes in the political landscape, and by dint of the often unanticipated consequences of their innovations, they created a nation of moats that protected them from accountability and from the damage their triumphs caused in the larger community. Most of the time, our elected and appointed representatives were no match for these overachievers. As a result of their savvy, their drive and their resources (and a certain degree of privilege, as these strivers may have come from humble circumstances but are mostly white men), America all but abandoned its most ambitious and proudest ideal: the never perfect, always debated and perpetually sought after balance between the energizing inequality of achievement in a competitive economy and the community-binding equality promised by democracy. In a battle that began a half-century ago, the achievers won.

http://time.com/5280446/baby-boomer-generation-america-steve...

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by dv_dt on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:30PM (#17777331)
IMHO, there was never a set of hard rules that enforced the split to any particular value. Business philosophy changed from a paternalistic profits + play a part-of-society view to the very literal greed-is-good view by the 1980s.

There was also a generational shift from business leaders who had been alive to feel the effects of the depression as well as when the rich weren't so insulated from the poor, to those where born well after those effects firsthand.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by sgslo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:29AM (#17775483)
It seems as though there are two competing issues tied to pay inequality:

1) Increasing inequality of social power between the mega rich and the common person

2) A feeling of unfairness as business leaders take home the lions share of profits

#1 is a true issue, but, let's be honest here, the average CEO's level pay isn't contributing to increasing inequality. That McDonald's CEO had a yearly take home pay of 21.7m. That's unbelievable peanuts compared to the wealth of the mega-rich. It is the multi-billionaires flexing their political muscles and exerting influence that leads to the nasty consequences of pay inequality.

As to #2, I understand the unfairness, but fail to understand the social consequences of it. In other words - what harm to society is being done by a manager getting paid more than a line employee? You mentioned offshoring jobs, but that is a separate issue, not tied to pay inequality.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by maxxxxx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:13PM (#17775912)
" A feeling of unfairness as business leaders take home the lions share of profits"

The social consequences of unfairness are huge. Once people feel they work in an unfair society they become cynical and lose motivation. I would argue a sense of fairness is the number one ingredient for a successful society.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by ajeet_dhaliwal on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:22PM (#17776005)
Not just a social consequence, it affects the business too but it's hard to measure, because you'd need the productivity numbers from an alternate reality. It's similar to problems caused around having less testing. There's nothing to compare to.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by jonathankoren on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:11PM (#17775895)
The problem with wealth inequality is that it's the same distorting forces of a monopoly. A small cadre use their wealth an influence to shape politics to serve their interests. Markets chase after small lucrative pools of customers. (For example, luxury condos get built, but affordable housing does not.) Education gets warped as the wealthy concentrate in small neighborhoods and thus improving those schools, while the rest fall farther and farther behind. The macroeconomy becomes more unstable as it's driven by the fads whims of the few. This instability and political disenfranchisement then leads to political instabilities and eventually sudden political upheavals where entire political, social, and economic systems are overthrown for sake of reform, but at the same time just leads to more extreme instability.

Until ironically, the wealthy simply leave (because who wants to stay in an a dangerous unstable place, when you can afford to leave), and let place that they set on fire burn to the ground, click their tongues and say, "Who knew this would happen?"

To think of it another way, no one puts all bets on a single investment. You diversify. That's what spreading the wealth does. It diversifies opportunity.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by Veelox on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:58PM (#17776418)
>(For example, luxury condos get built, but affordable housing does not.)

One think to think about, in a lot of areas where only luxury condos are being built, there tend to be pretty limited numbers of condos being built. If you are a developer and you know you will only be allowed to build 50 units, you are going to build the most expensive units you can so you can maximize your gross profit even if the marginal profit rate isn't as good. If you were allowed to build 1000 units, you might choose to build affordable housing that has a better marginal profit since the larger number of units allows you to have a higher gross profit.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by jonathankoren on Friday August 17, 2018 @02:05AM (#17780608)
True, but who is setting the 50 unit limit? It's the people that already live there and don't want the riff-raff moving in and driving down their property values.

At the same time, if you own an lot full of RVs and mobile mobile homes in a rich suburb, you might end up running the numbers and deciding to throw all those people out, and put up some luxury condos, because you can make a lot more money per square foot.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by maxxxxx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:16PM (#17775932)
"he wealthy simply leave (because they can afford to), and let place that they set on fire burn to the ground,"

There was a movie while ago where the rich people lived in space in beautiful habitats, had technology that could heal anybody while the rest had to labor on Earth under terrible conditions. Don't remember the name but maybe the move isn't that fictitious.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by dv_dt on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:25PM (#17776032)
Doesn't have to be in space. A visceral visual version of it is easy to see in Brazil

https://globalperipheries.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/the-favel...

But a version of this is present in America too. With areas without drinkable water, and areas w/o even a working sanitation system.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by godzillabrennus on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:19PM (#17775965)
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by ajeet_dhaliwal on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:25PM (#17776037)
Great movie. I liked the way the regular citizens (the non leadership) of Elysium were portrayed as largely oblivious or lacking in any care to the sufferings on Earth.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by maxxxxx on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:37PM (#17776186)
That's probably how I as middle class would look from the view of a poor person in the third world :-).
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by godzillabrennus on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:18PM (#17775951)
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by jonathankoren on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:31PM (#17776103)
Honestly, I think that's Elon's long game. The ultimate gated community.

Of course, he could just copy Petey Thiel and the rest of wretch and move to New Zealand.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/29/silicon-v...

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by ModernMech on Thursday August 16, 2018 @11:48AM (#17775685)
> what harm to society is being done by a manager getting paid more than a line employee?

Since you're being downvoted without any responses, I'll try to add my take. To me, it's not that a manager is getting paid more. It's that he's getting paid 312x more when the average worker in America struggling to afford healthcare, an education for their kids, and probably has to take in two salaries just to make ends meet. That's when income inequality is a problem -- when it's so unequal that one side gets everything, and the other is left to a battle royale.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by sgslo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:10PM (#17775886)
Then it appears the issue is stagnant wages, not inequality in pay. Let's say that all pay of big bosses gets capped at 200k across the nation tomorrow. Does that solve any issues with healthcare, education, etc? It seems as though the assumption is that higher pay for bosses comes solely at the expense of line workers. I don't think cutting pay of one party is going to magically increase pay of another party.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by aerotwelve on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:39PM (#17776212)
> It seems as though the assumption is that higher pay for bosses comes solely at the expense of line workers.

This assumption comes from evidence in our not-so-distant past. In the 1940s-60s, income was taxed at a much higher rate in the higher brackets (50-80%+ depending on the time); this served a similar function of the executive pay cap in your hypothetical. After the highest earners in a company reached the top brackets, it didn't make much sense for the company to further increase their pay (much of it would be lost to taxes so the ROI wasn't great).

So now you have all this leftover profit that, in 2018, would have went to CEO pay or bonuses. What is there to do with it? Invest in the company of course: give the best performing line-level employees raises, start internal training programs, kickstart moonshot R&D ideas, and so on.

(Unions also helped in ensuring that the rank and file got pay increases commensurate with management's raises)

Don't get me wrong, the highest earners were still very wealthy (and had plenty of yachts/summer homes/other symbols we associate with the 0.1%) and it was common to give them raises every year, but the higher marginal rates really did help in "forcing" profits downward.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by philipov on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:20PM (#17775977)
The cause of the issue of stagnant wages is inequality in pay.

"We took all the increased profits, so there's none left for you."

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by annabellish on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:17PM (#17775941)
Nobody is suggesting there's anything magical here.

We're seeing increasing profits, increasing wages for high level management, and static wages for most employees.

The second isn't an intrinsic issue itself, but we don't have just the second, we have all three, and _that_ is the problem. If profits and wages were both stagnant, then we would be having a different problem, but that isn't the world we live in. We live in the world where profits are going up, and all of it is going to people other than the workers.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by aeternus on Thursday August 16, 2018 @05:39PM (#17778626)
This implies a significant arbitrage opportunity for competitors. If workers really are producing the lion-share of the value, then smaller competitors should be able to gain market share by taking the best workers, paying them slightly more than the incumbent companies, and still reap significant profits.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by orf on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:15PM (#17775925)
I think it's representative of a disregard for the workers, rather than the absolute value amount
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by s73v3r_ on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:19PM (#17775962)
"It seems as though the assumption is that higher pay for bosses comes solely at the expense of line workers."

Yeah, it does. Money given to bosses and shareholders is money not available to pay workers.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by sgslo on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:34PM (#17776147)
As an example, McDonald's has a net income of of $4.686 billion. The CEO gets paid 21.7 million of that, or 0.4%. That's net income, not revenue, which was $24.6 billion. Let's be honest, the money is there to pay workers more money, and the CEO's pay does not redirect any meaningful amount of that available cash away from employees.

To be clear, my issue is not that workers shouldn't be paid more, it is that justification for higher worker pay shouldn't be "my boss gets paid more than me."

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by s73v3r_ on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:44PM (#17776278)
I think it absolutely should be. They're benefitting from the company doing better (in fact, in many cases, they're benefitting despite the company doing shitty), why should the actual workers doing the actual work not benefit as well?
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by digitaltrees on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:14PM (#17775918)
Actually, Executive pay is one of the primary drivers of income inequality growth. This is further driven by the shift from cash compensation for executives to cash and stock.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by dv_dt on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:19PM (#17775961)
I'm old enough to recall the business/philosophical discussions about CEO compensation to favor stock so that the long term interests of the CEO were aligned with the long term interests of the company. When I see profits of the company being piled into buybacks, I think that whole movement failed.
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by erik_seaberg on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:25PM (#17776035)
Companies should be returning dividends to owners. Buybacks are a workaround for bizarre tax laws that favor speculation (profit from dumping) over investment (profit from holding).
Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by dv_dt on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:28PM (#17776068)
Companies were also supposed to be efficient engines of production which also returned value to society through some element of reducing costs to customers too. Informally, it was supposed to result in a whole-society win-win. That is also failing.

Edit: I should be a bit more specific. I think in some stages of development, it has and still is succeeding very well (developing nations). In other areas like developed nations, there is a regression to inequality that is occurring that is figuratively and literally headed to destabilizing the world.

Re:US bosses now earn 312 times the average worker's wage by s73v3r_ on Thursday August 16, 2018 @12:43PM (#17776258)
I think the problem with that is, in the US at least, once a company starts issuing a dividend, it is expected to keep issuing that dividend, no matter what. And not only to keep issuing the dividend, but to increase it over time, too. Companies are expected to cut almost anything else, even taking on debt or laying off workers, before thinking of cutting the dividend.