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Re:YC China and Qi Lu by ulfw on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:09AM (#17763702)
I find it funny how YC is focusing only on places where the majority of the world won’t or can’t easily work (US visa policy is atrocious and getting worse every year + raising xenophobia in recent times) and China isn’t an easy country to navigate if you don’t speak Mandarin, let alone succeed in as a foreigner (for a variety of reasons). Asia and Europe are big places as are Canada and Australia. Time to think broader than just US+China!
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by fsloth on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:16AM (#17763734)
1. It's not about empowering everyone on the planet, it's about creating companies which become billion dollar unicorns

2. The probability of Unicornism is directly related to the size of the market you can access. US is the biggest single market on the planet.

3. Accessibility of markets: While EU is the second largest single market [0] US companies have entered european markets just fine. On the other hand, to operate in china, it's best to be a chinese company. Hence, to fund growth on a global scale going native in china is an obvious move.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries...

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:11AM (#17764236)
> US is the biggest single market on the planet.

By which measure? China has nearly five times as many inhabitants, the biggest economic growth over the past three decades of any country, and out-produces the US by over nine thousand. If it's not yet the biggest market on the planet yet, it soon will be.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by jacobush on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:16AM (#17764251)
It will be, sure, but it's not there. Also the markets are very different - the Chinese government is much more likely to take an active role in the governing of large companies.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by ekianjo on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:44AM (#17764338)
China may become richer but it will have to deal with the effects of a very fast aging population as well which will impede its economy as well.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by zavi on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @06:36AM (#17765001)
By monetary measure.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by erikb on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @04:32AM (#17764508)
China is a lot bigger market than the US. EU is slightly bigger. US is third. Maybe with extended markets (e.g. Central America and Canada for US, Eastern Europe for EU, Belt and Road area for China, US is number two). You need to consider several factors, like number of people, as well.

A big problem for the US is that it is a litle off, while most other social/cultural areas are closely connected. For instance, China and Russia might be almost as close allies as the pre-Trump US and Europe. But because Russia and Europe are so close, in fact the business dependencies between both are quite high as well. So a lot of business happens in that exchange, with high values due to the political risks. Since the US lacks such interdependencies with close neighbors it can survive better in a time like WW2 but it is harder in a long peace time like we currently have.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by zavi on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @06:37AM (#17765002)
Nominal GDP is used to measure country market sizes, sorry.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by erikb on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:04PM (#17767678)
First google result already says different: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/market-size.htm...

I woud assume it's not a term like "revenue" but more a general word. It's also not smart for your own analysis to assume a single value for it. If you write a business case for instance, it's quite smart to summarize how you size the market for your product/service as well.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by fsloth on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @04:56AM (#17764591)
"China and Russia might be almost as close allies as the pre-Trump US and Europe. "

That completely underestimates the cultural ties US and 'Europe' has and overestimates the co-operation between parties who co-operate pragmatically from time to time but really can't trust or understand each other.

" US lacks such interdependencies with close neighbors it can survive better in a time like WW2 but it is harder in a long peace time like we currently have."

That's some extremely peculiar economic calculus.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by Gwaih1r on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:13AM (#17764243)
Are you sure nominal GDP is the right metric to be using to compare market size? By adjusted (PPP) GDP it's China, EU and then the US. Those billions can go a lot further in China and the EU than they can in the US.

https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by fsloth on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:39AM (#17764314)
As a complete economist noob this is my understanding: When discussing huge investements, the cost of goods and services does not really matter, but what matters is that what is the expected profit margin from the investment and at what risk.

From this point of view dollars do equal the estimated size, not how much commodities or services you can buy with it.

Someone with more experience can comment hopefully on this.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by Eridrus on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @09:29AM (#17765849)
You want money in nominal terms, so PPP doesn't matter. EU is not really a single market, they have unified regulations, which is helpful, but at the very least language differences mean you're doing custom work for every country.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by chimeracoder on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:20PM (#17767226)
> EU is not really a single market, they have unified regulations, which is helpful

The EU doesn't really have unified regulations. I mean, regulations passed at the EU level are unified, but countries have a great degree of country-specific regulations themselves.

Now, technically states within the US have the ability to regulate things at the state level, but due to various aspects of Constitutional law (the Commerce Clause, and case law such as the Sherman Antitrust Act, etc.), there are far fewer state-specific regulations that companies have to worry about for interstate commerce within the US than international commerce within the EU. Unless you're dealing with very specific regulated industries (money transmission, health insurance, etc.), you generally don't have to worry about a lot for basic interstate commerce in the US.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by wodenokoto on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @05:01AM (#17764612)
Yes, if you want the most money, you want the highest nominal number.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by lettergram on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @07:01AM (#17765127)
Something to consider as well, is there is fairly wide spread consensus that China's GDP is significantly artificially inflated.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:15AM (#17763730)
Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China. Plenty of my laowai colleagues only knew a few words and got along just fine in a tier one Beijing, which admittedly is a bit behind Shanghai and Shenzhen.

The only thing that really drove us out was the pollution (a huge problem in Beijing that is supposedly finally getting better).

Given the US visa policy, as bad as it is, still attracts far more many foreigners than China, at least. More than most countries actually even by per capita measures.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by telltruth on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:54AM (#17763853)
> Mandarin isn't strictly necessary to live in China

Basic question: what do you do in China for browsing, emails and maps? I suppose Google doesn't work there and all the local services would be in Mandarin, no? When I travel I use Google search, emails, maps extensively but I have no clue what would I do in China. Also FB and Twitter also likely won't be accessible. So how do I even keep touch with folks outside China, especially if I don't know Mandarin?

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:12AM (#17763903)
Many foreigners have VPNs, but many do not. They aren't the easiest thing to set up, and they often close shop a few weeks after you pay a yearly subscription fee.

Email: I use outlook.com, but I shut my gmail account long before gmail was blocked. I'm weird.

maps: Apple Maps on an iphone works well enough. Not sure if gmaps on Android works or not. Many Google services still work even if a few are blocked.

Browsing: many websites work in China, but I also had full internet access at work for when I needed it, so Facebooking family was easy enough, I just didn't use it at night when I was at home...I didn't miss it.

Its definitely isolating, but not incredibly so. If you are addicted to social media, this can even help you become unaddicted, weird therapy for sure :)

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by telltruth on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @06:23AM (#17764932)
Is VPN legal? What are English options for maps with transit available without vpn?
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @09:38AM (#17765906)
Apple maps works perfectly fine in China. I’m not sure what it’s like for android users.

It includes transit, at least for Beijing, see https://www.apple.com/ios/feature-availability/. I always took a taxi though so that wasn’t very important to me, so I used mostly the didi dache app.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by avcdsuia on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @04:41AM (#17764542)
For crying out loud, even using github based services like 'go get' or homebrew without proxies is a real pain in the arse, stop defending your 'it's not that bad' view cos it is.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by dang on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:23PM (#17767248)
Please don't cross into flamewar mode. We're trying to avoid that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by qiqing on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:58PM (#17768211)
Get a SIM card from Project Fi (by Google), which auto-VPN's for you, and you can use everything (FB, Twitter, etc.) you're used to using. Bring a Chromebook and use your phone to provide Internet for your Chromebook.

Install Didi so you can hail a ride. Install WeChat and some of the mini apps so that you can order Starbucks without waiting in line. Since you probably don't have a Chinese bank account, find a local (possibly even a hotel concierge) who is willing to take cash from you and send you some RMB into your WeChat account so you can pay vendors, including restaurant bills, train tickets, farmer's markets, and the guy on the street corner selling oranges.

Pretty straight forward.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by gpetukhov on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @05:46AM (#17764786)
I spent a couple hours setting up an OpenVPN server on AWS EC2 nano instance so it's going to be completely free for the first year. Speed is not great but enough to watch HD youtube videos, etc. I know have unrestricted internet on both my phone and macbook.

Follow this tutorial: https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/how-to-make-you...

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by lhl on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:09AM (#17763892)
For a long while shadowsocks/shadowsocksr (the latter being more actively developed) has been preferred way to bypass the GFW although what works is constantly changing. This was an interesting write up passed a couple years ago where a dev tries out various methods for bypass on a China trip: http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewal...
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by teekno on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:17AM (#17763913)
I'm moving to China in a week for graduate school and have been asking myself many of these questions :)

In past trips to China, VPN services--specially Express VPN--allowed me to easily bypass the Great Firewall. That unlocks Twitter, FB, Google services, etc.

That being said, many services don't have a great experience in China. For example, Google Maps doesn't offer public transit or driving instructions. In these cases, using the chinese-based app (Du Maps) is just far better.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by davidzweig on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @07:09AM (#17765162)
Some options:

>> ExpressVPN worked well on windows, although flakey for me on Android.

>> Set up ShadowSocks on a server outside China.

>> Buy a SIM card in Hong Kong, they apparently maintain their unrestricted internet access even in the mainland.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by Jommi on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @02:45AM (#17764162)
VPN or V2RAY etc. Fix that issue. It's still excruciatingly slow tho.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by fhe on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:36AM (#17763964)
to live in China, one could get by with little to no mandarin; but to do business in China, mandarin is a must.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:58AM (#17764039)
Even that depends. A (young educated) Chinese can speak better English than a Laowai could probably ever speak Chinese. Plenty of foreigners work exec positions in Chinese companies with only very basic mandarin.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by Jommi on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @02:44AM (#17764157)
But that's the thing, they need basic mandarin! Which is no easy task for sure.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @02:49AM (#17764183)
Anyone can learn how to say 你好are you? But seriously, getting basic taxi cab mandarin down in 6 months is pretty easy. Heck, when I did it it was much harder since real beijingers back then had thick 儿 accents.

You definitely don't need 大山-level mandarin to do business in china these days.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by Jommi on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @02:54AM (#17764200)
Yeah but it's still not honest to say you don't need to learn Chinese at all. I would say that you will need atleast 6 months to be able to live normally, 12 months to get respect in business meetings, 3-4 years to be understood and make it a comp. advantage.And I'm not talking about 上海。
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:07AM (#17764228)
I'm always shocked when I visit shanghai and the taxi drivers can actually speak English. Nothing like that ever happens in Beijing.

Plenty of foreigners work in China having much less than 6 months of Chinese. Most of them weren't even at my level. They still got by. Business meetings held with foreigners are usually in English anyways, it is only the old guard (Xi's generation) that can't English very well. And those people aren't so common in tech.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by client4 on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:57AM (#17764378)
My winning combination for China: Google Fi (unrestricted access to real Internet), Google Translate, Didi. Most places have pictures for food so I just play the pointing game, but it would be difficult if you were a picky eater.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by natch on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:36PM (#17767378)
After seeing Mark Zuckerberg's "Chinese ability" I have less respect for him than before. I don't think 12 months cuts it. Maybe gives you a cute factor, yes. I would think respect is independent of language ability, unless you are taking language ability as your main selling point as a person. I'm sure Bill Gates is both respected in China, and effective, whether he speaks any Chinese or not. It all depends on the circumstances.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by natch on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:52AM (#17764013)
Considering that there are over 300 million, yes million, people in China who do not speak Mandarin, I'd say yes one could get by. I'd even venture to say many of these 300 million people also do business in China. But yeah, I know what you meant.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by tanilama on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @04:02AM (#17764397)
> Considering that there are over 300 million, yes million, people in China who do not speak Mandarin

I don't think your numbers are right. Tibet has 4 million population. Xinjiang has 20 million, among which 50% are Han. Those are only 2 provinces where I can think of that doesn't require Mandarin to get by in certain area.

The rest of China, at least, could understand Mandarin without problems.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by natch on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:31PM (#17767318)
You're just going by intuition, which can be misleading.

Guangdong province alone is 100 million people. Some of whom are Mandarin speakers (1st or 2nd or 2nd+ language). But many are not, not even as 2nd or 2nd+ language speakers. And their predominant language is Cantonese. Many people grew up before mandatory Mandarin education was instituted. There's a similar situation in other huge provinces all around China, especially southern China.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by tanilama on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @02:01PM (#17768249)
I would say assuming people from Guangdong province, and majority of them don't speak Mandarin is an exaggeration to great extent. Of course they do, it is imperfect with heavy accent. But I won't go that far claiming they don't speak Mandarin, as if saying all English speakers in India don't count, that is just hilarious.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by natch on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @02:18PM (#17768390)
I never made any such claims. This kind of poor quality conversation is not worth engaging in.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by tanilama on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:09PM (#17768812)
It is definitely your claim about the 300 million Chinese that they don't speak Mandarin, that is why the whole conversation happens. Otherwise, it won't add up, even assume majority of Guangdong province don't speak Mandarin at all.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @11:44AM (#17766941)
Tibetan parts of Sichuan have many non-mandarin speakers, though these are technically a part of greater Tibet anyways.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by stevechu on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:26AM (#17764281)
If you mean that these 300 million do not have Chinese as the first language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_China then it would be correct. But every kid growing up in China has to learn Chinese in school (plus TV etc).
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by natch on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:25PM (#17767261)
Wrong. A lot of people grew up before this started. And no, I removed the Mandarin-as-an-additional-language people from the number already. (Mandarin 1st + Mandarin as a 2nd or 3rd languages speakers) = 1.1 billion. Population of China, 1.4 billion. 1.4 billion minus 1.1 billion is 300 million.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:29AM (#17764292)
I’ve run into old people in China who don’t speak a word of mandarin, especially in Tibetan areas. They get the kids to translate for them.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by yzh on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:51AM (#17764358)
I think compared to pollution, political situation and education is more concerned.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by sama on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @04:25PM (#17769445)
We fund startups all around the world! In the rare cases where a founder is unable to get a US visa for the duration of our program, we are open to doing something remote. We offer a lot of help figuring out the US visa system, which is in my opinion extremely sub-optimal. I believe talent is equally distributed in the world, and the US should want as many talented founders to come create businesses here as possible.

China is an especially interesting market to us given the quality of companies and entrepreneurs we see there.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by tanilama on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @01:50AM (#17764003)
It should be easy to see, China and US are where money are. There is advantage to have a local branch there. YC is a venture capital, don't pretend it is something else.
Re:YC China and Qi Lu by echevil on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @12:20AM (#17763746)
It’s not hard to understand if you just take a look at stats in the past few years on where recent startups are founded, and where VC money goes.

Language barrier is not an issue for YC - they can just hire mandarin speakers like Lu Qi. I’m sure YC China would get mostly Chinese employees.

Re:YC China and Qi Lu by yzh on Wednesday August 15, 2018 @03:49AM (#17764350)
I think YC China would mainly help local tech talents to launch startups with a focus on China's markets first. If you look at how many tech startups are located in Beijing (some of them are tier-one companies: Tusimple, uisee, bytedance, mobvoi, megvii, just to name a few), you would know that they have made the right choice.