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Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dmix on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:47AM (#17558886)
You're missing the massive point that it was also happened to be far superior to Firefox and IE when it came out... And it held the #1 spot (by far) for nearly a decade while Firefox fumbled around and IE remained IE.

It's crazy to say a product only succeeded because Google pushed it hard. Google (and Microsoft, Yahoo, etc) has a LONG list of failed products they pushed hard (Wave, Google Plus, etc).

Did it play a role? Sure. But prominent advertising is not the same as forcing hardware manufacturers to pre-install software. Nor does it suddenly make customers want a shitty product they wouldn't otherwise use.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by nojvek on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:59AM (#17559010)
Chrome basically got a fresh start and built on top of existing WebKit codebase with new ideas. They did well with the “second mover advantage”

Firefox and IE were riddled with code debt issues so they couldn’t move fast.

Chrome was a great example of software written by a company with resources to dominate a huge market segment relatively quickly. I’m guessing Chrome earned Sundar Picchai a lot of good karma within Google to later become CEO.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by bruinjoe on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:18AM (#17559209)
Excellent points. Chrome has the best development tools. I used the dev tools so much that I just launch Chrome out of habit when I want to browse the web.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by hackujin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:43AM (#17559389)
While at the same time they've been stripping out vital features or outright disabling them on mobile. It's almost like gasp they don't care about the users but only their bottom line.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by GeekyBear on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:33AM (#17559323)
Also, Google paid to have their browser installed through the installers of other companies software, by default.

For instance, by default, the installer for AVG's free antivirus program would install Google Chrome and make it the default browser.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dmix on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:39AM (#17559354)
I don't see any problem with doing a few partnerships like these. Even with some major companies. Firefox could easily do the same.

It's only a problem when you squeeze out competition by doing exclusive contracts with all major distributors in a particular distribution channel.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by GeekyBear on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:58AM (#17559534)
I'd say that sneaking an install of your product onto people's computers when they are not expecting it is exploiting a dark pattern.

However, the point was that Chrome didn't mysteriously gain market share solely based on some sort of technical superiority.

Google paid to gain market share with the sorts of clueless users who click next during install wizards without reading anything.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by joering2 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:26PM (#17560294)
My point was Google didn't pay anything to gain the market share because they advertise Chrome on their frontpage, something neither Firefox, nor IE, nor Opera nor Safari, nor anyone else in that matter could do.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by GeekyBear on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:43PM (#17560443)
From an antitrust law point of view, using your monopoly status in one area as a weapon against the competition in other areas is something that likely gets you in trouble.

Although, it helps to remember that in the EU, you don't need nearly as big a market share before their competition law kicks in and places restrictions on your behavior, so things that you can still get away with in the US can be quite illegal in the EU.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by josteink on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:54PM (#17560575)
They paid to have it bundled as a drive-by install in other popular software, spyware-style.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by WorkLifeBalance on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:44AM (#17559393)
But only you can leverage your monopoly on search to know exactly which products are worth having those contracts with.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by gkya on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:14PM (#17562809)
If Mozilla is honest to its premise it can not do such a thing.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by codedokode on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:53PM (#17560008)
Mozilla probably doesn't have so much money to pay for installing their browser.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by theptip on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:49AM (#17559439)
The GP didn't make the claim that the "product only succeeded because Google pushed it hard". All they said was that Google used their search monopoly to give it a big advantage.

Chrome's quality was a necessary, but probably not sufficient condition for it to gain the market traction that it did.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by cptskippy on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:01PM (#17559557)
Exactly, without Search pushing so hard the adoption rate would have been much slower and would have given Mozilla, Apple, and Microsoft time to respond.

Firefox has rapidly improved since it's inception and was rapidly stealing IE market share prior to Chrome.

Had Chrome not been rammed down people's throats then we might have a more even landscape than we do today.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by josteink on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:42PM (#17560442)
Search. And Gmail. And YouTube. And every other google-controlled site on the internet.

Plus email-SPAM(!!!) about installing Chrome when you signed in to your Google-account on a new computer using a non-Chrome browser.

It also used dubious wording: “You need to upgrade your browser. Click here”

And paying to have it bundled as a drive-by installation with other software.

And Chrome-only websites. And the list just goes on and on.

It was spyware tactics + SPAM all over the place. And the sheer amount of it was mind-blowing.

Even technical people who explicitly didn’t want Chrome had a hard time avoiding it. Imagine the effect on regular, non-technical users.

Saying it was all down to technical merit is just appoligist and delusional.

With Chrome’s dominance and semi-monoculture undeniably in place, Google is now using that position to force new things, like subverting open web-standards with DRM.

I can’t believe people are so non-chalantly allowing this to happen.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ta3434678 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @03:29PM (#17561399)
Its been a slow boil, and they employ experts to manipulate public opinion (HN fawns all over them still ... articles continually like "Ex-Googlers Do XYZ!". They won't get away with it long term.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:01AM (#17559030)
Actually, the biggest thing in Chrome's favor was being an installer pack-in. People still get sometimes Chrome installed on them if they go download Adobe Reader without unchecking the box. (McAfee Security Scan Plus is Adobe's other paid pack-in, you might see that instead, depending on your location.) People seem to vastly forget that a large part of Chrome's dominance of the ordinary user is the fact that installing half a dozen plugins or tools on Windows has or still installs Chrome and sets it as your default browser.

When doing PC support for layusers, I've found that: Most people don't know what Chrome is, and don't know the difference between it, Edge, IE, and the malicious Chromium fork they have installed on their PCs. (Side note: May the soulless individuals behind the "WebDiscover Browser" suffer a life of misery and despair as punishment for their crimes.) They end up with Chrome (or a malicious fork thereof) due to a bundle installer.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by lloydde on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:02PM (#17559568)
What Chrome also did far better than everyone else was a user local install, ie an install that didn’t require admin on the PC. Shadow IT installs was a huge advantage over Firefox in Chrome’s first years.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:16PM (#17559662)
I still have to fight this occasionally. :| In one instance, I ended up just telling the antivirus software at a company to flag Chrome as a virus and block it from executing. Software installation requiring admin rights is by design, and circumventing it is unethical as heck.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by praseodym on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:47PM (#17559948)
If you rely on the lack of admin rights to prevent unauthorised software from being run you’re doing it wrong. You should be using whitelisting (e.g. AppLocker in Windows) which also prevents “portable” applications (without an installer) from being used.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @02:34PM (#17560931)
I don't disagree, but a significant majority of IT environments are "done wrong".
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:36PM (#17562282)
The eternal conflict between lowly workers trying to get their job done and the IT department trying to prevent them from doing their jobs to make their own life easier, based on the notion that if users can't use the infrastructure, they can't break it.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:47PM (#17562647)
Obviously, Chrome is not needed to do their jobs. If it was, it'd be provided. Browsers, especially Chrome, are a massive malware ingress point, it makes zero sense for end users to install them.

IT actually exists to help ensure people can do their job, and do their job faster. As a general goal, I like to learn about people's business processes for the exact purpose of seeing how our IT environment can be improved to expedite their work.

And having five browsers on a PC doesn't make it easier for end users. I have no problem dealing with five browsers, but I get a lot of complaints from people when they open link A in browser B and link C in browser D and don't understand why things don't work.

You may have experienced poor IT departments in the past, or thought you experienced poor IT departments because you didn't understand the other considerations in play, but that's hardly an excuse to assume any given IT choice is some sort of attempt to prevent employees from doing their jobs.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:58PM (#17563853)
> If it was, it'd be provided.

That's a faulty assumption right there. Usually, people providing workers with their computers and software have limited idea what those workers actually need to work efficiently. This works out fine when workflows are defined so well a trained monkey could do the job, and fails miserably when the worker needs any sort of creative control over their workflow or work output (programmers, designers, all sorts of engineers and technicians, etc.). Most corporate work is probably closer to monkey level than to creative level, but enterprises love to do company-wide policy changes, making all work conform to lowest common denominator.

> You may have experienced poor IT departments in the past, or thought you experienced poor IT departments because you didn't understand the other considerations in play, but that's hardly an excuse to assume any given IT choice is some sort of attempt to prevent employees from doing their jobs.

I've experienced one competent IT department in my life, and their best quality was helping shield our programming team from policies like application whitelisting or limiting admin access, that they were forced to deploy company-wide. For other IT departments I dealt with, most of their actions were explainable if viewed through the lens of caring about the infrastructure to the extreme - that is, "if no one uses it, no one will break it" approach.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Thursday July 19, 2018 @05:00PM (#17570211)
> That's a faulty assumption right there. Usually,...

You accuse me of making a "faulty assumption" about my own environment, and then proceed to assume that you can speak for most/all IT environments.

When I state "if you need Chrome, we'll provide Chrome", that's true of my environment. It's also true of my environment, if we don't provide Chrome, and you find a way to install it yourself, you'd be violating policy, and barring the casual mistake of not knowing that, potentially referred to HR. Obviously, in the ideal "don't need to involve HR" case, we just make sure you can't install it.

Now, what isn't just true of my environment, but true of all environments, is that users installing random web browsers is incredibly dangerous, and something every IT department should be preventing if they own the hardware. I don't think that's even a controversial statement, I'm confused why it's being treated like one.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by mr_toad on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:52PM (#17563636)
Installation requirements are mostly a hangover from the days when Windows PCs weren’t locked down and anyone could write to the system folders and admin rights were just assumed.

Software developers often didn’t bother testing or ensuring that their software would install (or even run properly) without admin rights.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by paulie_a on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @02:05PM (#17560677)
If you try that on my box, your admin rights will be removed. Preventing me from installing necessary software to do my job is unethical.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @02:35PM (#17560943)
Users who have a valid necessity for Chrome can have it, in a very controlled fashion (extensions and cloud features disabled) on request and review.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by paulie_a on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @02:43PM (#17561003)
Im ignoring that request and review process. I don't need a beaucratic process. Im just going to do it.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by s73v3r_ on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @08:10PM (#17563089)
That's not your box, though. It's your employers.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by paulie_a on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:36PM (#17563589)
Not necessarily. Byod is commom. And quite frankly even if it is my employers box im not gonna put up with restrictions against installing a web browser. Or deal with some paperwork request, I'll work around it and just do it.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by lovich on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @10:59PM (#17563665)
Who would bring their own equipment to work in software unless they are a founder? That's like paying to work. Especially when employers like to claim ownership rights to all data generated by their employees in the course of business.

Mechanics bring their own tools frequently but their employers don't try to repo their personal vehicles just because the mechanic used the same tools at home and at work

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by paulie_a on Thursday July 19, 2018 @09:12AM (#17565883)
It's fairly common to byod. Just think about personal phones. Do you have corporate phone or do have slack installed on your personal one?
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by lovich on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:34PM (#17567945)
I don't have work slack on my personal phone on principle. If the company wants to require me to be available on their systems they need to provide the hardware
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by arcbyte on Thursday July 19, 2018 @11:57AM (#17567500)
My company hands us out shit laptops running 10 different layers of security devices. Fuck that. I bring my Surface Pro in and actually enjoy my life.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Thursday July 19, 2018 @05:07PM (#17570274)
Are you running your personal hardware (without the security) on the internal network? Please tell me you don't have the same level of access with personal hardware as you do with the corporate equipment.

Even in a BYOD environment, an organization should be ensuring any devices granted access to resources are appropriately patched and secured.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:38PM (#17567998)
I can understand that. I just don't want to have a reason why my employer could call me in off hours, nor for them to claim ownership of stuff I've done.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by s73v3r_ on Thursday July 19, 2018 @12:37PM (#17567975)
But then you're the unethical one, here.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by codedokode on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:56PM (#17560038)
Chrome was also offered when downloading Adobe Flash and as I remember it was often bundled with various free software.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dmix on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:40AM (#17559365)
I don't see how partnering with a few other software companies to distribute software via installers is a bad thing or a sign of monopolistic practices (aka limiting competition and harming customers by forcing them to use a product they wouldn't otherwise)...

It's a bit shady to make it 'automatically the default browser'. But that is a problem with the OS. An installer shouldn't be able to make that choice for the user.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:19PM (#17559694)
They fixed this with Windows 10, actually. Which of course, upset people because it defaults people to Edge, and asks people to give Edge a try when they change it.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by dmix on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:27PM (#17559772)
True, I remember seeing that now on my moms laptop. I remember it was quite aggressive in warning you not to switch away from Edge.

Microsoft can never let the marketing people stop having control and ruining their products. They are trying to make it more useable and user friendlier, but it's funny seeing the push back within the product.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:36PM (#17559842)
I've recently said that Microsoft is the most self-defeating company in history. They often take all of the goodwill they've earned, and then torch it on minor battles that aren't really making them any money. If someone's gotten into the settings screen to change their default, they probably have tried Edge, or at least know what it is and have some reason for switching.

Windows 10 telemetry is a great example: They shot themselves in the foot PR-wise on an otherwise excellent operating system, chasing a pile of metadata that won't really be significantly more useful than what they get from people who voluntarily agree to be Windows Insiders. There isn't a good business case for preventing people from shutting off error reporting, and it's had a huge impact on mitigating all of their other efforts to repair their image.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:43PM (#17562325)
I'd say the forced update from 8 to 10, with all the UI dark patterns, was even worse. An OS "collecting telemetry" on you was mostly an abstract problem for non-technical users. An OS trying to annoy and trick you into updating to that scary "telemetry version" - that's another thing, and I know plenty of people who were pissed off about that. Hell, my own mother sticks to 8 and still refuses to entertain the thought of using 10 precisely because of those attempts at forced upgrade.

It's a shame, really, because Windows 10 is a decent OS, and it fixed most of the issues with 8.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by pjmlp on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @04:18PM (#17561751)
That kind of behaviour is easy to understand when one works at any Fortune 500, specially those whose main business isn't software related.

It doesn't matter how much goodwill a specific department might have, power struggle and department differences always end up impacting it.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by codedokode on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:55PM (#17560022)
Google also showed a warning about an unsupported browser when Google Documents were used with other browser like Opera.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by josteink on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:57PM (#17560601)
Often with a link to download Chrome saying misleading stuff like “Upgrade your browser. Click here”.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by ModernMech on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:04PM (#17559590)
> You're missing the massive point that it was also happened to be far superior to Firefox and IE when it came out

I mean, you really could have said the same thing about IE 4 when it came out. It was actually better than Communicator at the time, which was a bloated, unfocused, mess of a browser.

It's hard to find news and reviews from 1997 to back me up, but here are a couple accounts I found recollecting their experiences with the browsers: https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Netscape-lose-ground-to-IE

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by Joeri on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @02:09PM (#17560703)
I was a www user at the time and that’s how I remember it. IE4 was clearly better than netscape’s comparable offering at the time, and IE5 and IE6 entrenched that lead to the point where I had to switch to IE. Much faster and much better standards support (ironically IE6 had by far the best standards support at the time of its release.)
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by datalist on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:07PM (#17562067)
It had a few new concepts, mainly multi-processes, but "far superior when it came out" is a broad exaggeration.

Equally, IE was far superior to Netscape when it came out ;)

This is not to say Chrome is (now) the inferior browser but saying their marketing push has nothing to do with its market share is ignoring reality.

Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by Jyaif on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:16PM (#17562507)
It had little things like multi-process, omnibox, and something like a 10x faster JS engine than the competition, but the real killer feature was the auto-updating.
Re:European Commission fines Google €4.34B in Android antitr... by datalist on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:38PM (#17562608)
It did come with advantages, no doubt, but - as so often - its market share is not necessarily because it tried to push the web further, a large share is simply because of Google's aggressive marketing.

To this day Google is pushing their browser if you dare to use their services with Edge.