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Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by foxes on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @12:36PM (#17550938)
I visited USTC several years ago, (2014) and in this time they have basically doubled the number of qubits they can entangle, so this is a great step forward. At around ~100 qubits quantum computing becomes very useful, so maybe we won't have to wait too long.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by bscphil on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:25PM (#17551390)
What's the size needed for cracking large-primes based encryption? If not at 100 qubits, what are some useful calculations that we can do at that size?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by deepGem on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:51PM (#17551612)
So the number of raw qubits are in the order of a million for large prime factorization or to make Shor's algorithm a reality. This is because the physical qubits are highly unstable and prone to errors. The error correction methodologies will result in a fault-tolerant logical qubit. Depending on the error correction algorithm, the ratio of logical: data/physical qubit is 1:1000 at the minimum. You need 4000 logical qubits at least for large prime factorization give or take 4 million raw qubits.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by bscphil on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:59PM (#17554836)
This is probably a dumb question, but could you spread out the error correction in time? I know it's hard to create very large entangled systems, so would it be possible/easier to do the calculation with 4000 real qubits 1000 times and use the repetition for error correction? (Checking for correct factorization is easy, after all.)
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by simcop2387 on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @09:24PM (#17554928)
That's been one strategy I've seen mentioned in regards to Shor's algorithm many times. Since there's the probability of an error, you still have to check it and rerun it a few times until you confirm the right answer.

That's still many times faster than you'd get conventionally, so it's a reasonable trade off.

But it doesn't address the possibility that you can't entangle enough qubits to begin with, or keep them stable long enough to actually perform the calculations, which is where the error correction stuff comes in. I don't know enough about the challenges there to comment on how many you'd need (though 1000:1 seems high to my naive intuition, i'd guess maybe 10-100 for magnitude myself).

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by sir_kin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:48AM (#17559424)
For more info on that 1000:1 ratio, see [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_threshold_theorem

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by mirekrusin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @03:41AM (#17556170)
Calculation on quantum state is already spread in time. Each time you calculate something you basically take snapshot of the state. Then you do it again. After many trials patterns emerge - that’s when you start reading your answer - which is always probabilistic.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by amelius on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @04:53PM (#17553272)
How fast do you think the number of qubits will grow over the coming years? Will it be exponential, like Moore's law?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by misterprime on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:23PM (#17554007)
There was an AMA not long ago with someone in the quantum computer industry and iirc he stated that it isn't certain if we even can go that high. Guessing how fast that will happen is not reasonable at this point.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by wiz21c on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:41AM (#17556698)
>>> qubits are highly unstable

newbie question : are they naturally instable (so we won't fix that) or is it just because we don't master them well enough right now (and we'll fix them "soon") ?

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by deepGem on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:28AM (#17557312)
It's the former. They can be made stable at super conducting temperatures but not completely. There will always be errors. From what I can understand you cant fully eliminate the errors. I donno may be some new superconducting temp might make them stable but that's a wild guess.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by dzhiurgis on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:44PM (#17552037)
A lot of things regarding chemistry and biology - finding catalysts for nitrate fertiliser production (uses 5% of worlds power), perhaps some catalysts in cement production (my idea), invention of new medicines, either due to better cell simulations or (my idea) faster protein folding.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by aaavl2821 on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:56PM (#17552130)
Is the bottleneck preventing better cell simulations computational or lack of data / insufficient understanding of biology to inform a predictive model?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by thatcherc on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:20PM (#17552325)
My understanding as a physics undergrad is that we can write down the 'equations of motion' of molecular systems with Hamiltonians describing the energies and correlations of the electrons in a system, but they very quickly become intractably difficult to solve. You're trying to solve a very, very big eigenvalue problem.

However, with the right kind of quantum computer or quantum simulator, you could construct a system of qubits that is described by the exact same Hamiltonian. That way, the quantum state of your qubits and your original system would behave in exactly the same way. Then, you just let the qubits evolve in time and read out the system's state at the end. Do that a bunch of times and you'll see an average picture of what the original system you're modelling (protein or something) would do.

So to recap - we can get around the difficult compute bottleneck caused by the desire to perform high-fidelity physics simulations by creating a system that follows the same rules and which we can probe much more easily.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by cing on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @10:56PM (#17555284)
I'm a cofounder of a start-up working on near-term applications of quantum computing in biology, specifically on the protein structure side of things (https://www.proteinqure.com). There are many self-contained subproblems in this space which are not limited by data because models are accurate enough to inform experiments, but there's probably not a scientist in the world who would say we have a sufficient understanding of biology to make predictive models with generality.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by aaavl2821 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:05PM (#17560115)
That's interesting, what are some examples of those subproblems?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by BookmarkSaver on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:20PM (#17552329)
Not an expert, but my understanding is that while better knowledge/models of the biology might be useful, ultimately it's just a massive computational project to test out and optimize protein folding and such complex chemical behavior. The physics/chemistry and biology are understood well enough, there are just nearly countless paths to explore making it a huge problem.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by klipt on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @05:39PM (#17553683)
Nature manages to fold proteins quickly enough. What's nature doing that we can't?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by mjfl on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:34PM (#17554096)
Parallelization on a single particle level at every point in space.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by BookmarkSaver on Saturday July 21, 2018 @02:46PM (#17583220)
Nature manages to cause weather patterns easily enough, why can't we?

Your question doesn't make sense. Many (most) things in nature are incredibly hard to model correctly. Just because they happen doesn't make it easy to quantify usefully.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by dzhiurgis on Friday July 20, 2018 @02:07PM (#17577373)
They know the recipe, we are searching for one
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by marcosdumay on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @05:38PM (#17553670)
I wouldn't expect a clear bottleneck, because increased computational capacity leads to increased understanding.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by rurban on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:57PM (#17554254)
2048 would break current crypto, >20 would help solving most unsolvable NP hard problems.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by sir_kin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:47AM (#17559413)
2018 LOGICAL qubits would break current crypto. But qubits decohere extremely fast, so you need error correcting schemes. Current estimates require 1000 - 10000 physical qubits per logical error corrected qubit.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_threshold_theorem

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by rurban on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @04:52PM (#17561960)
No, no one cares about those HW problems. To break RSA keys you need 0 error correction. You only need >2000 entangled qbits, and they either produce a correct result or not.

For other calculations you might need error correction, but this leads to nowhere with current technology. What the Chinese did was groundbreaking.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by ssdd on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @12:51PM (#17551101)
That's great. Now next thing that needs to be solved is to make this tech available for general public use just like computers are these days. Problems that are waiting to be solved by it are very large and of huge impact.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by jblow on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:18PM (#17551336)
We all have these things in our pockets that are massive supercomputers by the standards of my college days. And we all use them just to rant at each other about political things that we in reality are totally misinformed about ... and otherwise just waste our lives. I am not sure why quantum computing is supposed to change this.

Even software that is supposed to be useful is so terribly slow. Computers are between 2 and 4 orders of magnitude faster than programmers today experientially believe they are, because today’s culture of programming has rotted so thoroughly. Do you really need a quantum computer when 3 orders of magnitude are just sitting there on the table waiting to be picked up?

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by ams6110 on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:04PM (#17552189)
We would not have Amazon, Netflix, Youtube, Facebook, Google Docs, Deep Learning, name any other modern software technology or product, if we were still writing and optimizing everything by hand in assembly or C. Those "2 to 4 orders of magnitude" that are "sitting on the table" are actually being used to make it possible for developers to work at a much higher level and be much more productive.

I totally agree with your first paragraph, though.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by jblow on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @05:02PM (#17553349)
I disagree. The slowness of these languages is mostly uncorrelated with increases in productivity. People only think there’s cause-and-effect here because they haven’t seen counterexamples, because the trend in language design for 25 years has been to make slow languages.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:29PM (#17554045)
They haven't seen counterexamples because there are virtually none. If what you said was correct wouldn't there be many examples of big bodies of code written in a language like C? (And you can't say "linux kernel" - low-level code needs to be written in a low-level language, in order to communicate with the lower levels like hardware and controllers and such. There is a practical reason to write that in C.)

> because the trend in language design for 25 years has been to make slow languages

No one sets out to make a language to make them slow. The trend is to make higher level languages. Do you really think that there is no reason for it besides novelty and coolness factor?

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by p1necone on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @09:25PM (#17554933)
I think the point that the comment you're replying to is trying to make is not that big complicated software engineering can be done in say, C with similar levels of productivity to say, Java.

He's instead saying that it's very much possible to build a language with a similar level of abstraction/ergonomics to say, Java, or Python, or C#, or whatever but with similar performance characteristics to a lower level language like C. And we are starting to see this - there are languages like Rust or D which are (at least to my eyes) much less arduous and foot-gun prone than languages like C or C++ while having similar (or better) performance.

Of course there's also Jai, but I think we should remain unbiased here :P

As an aside though - I think some of those orders of magnitude of performance gains could be had by just writing better code in your existing high level languages. (At least in my experience with enterprise software dev).

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by z3phyr on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:14AM (#17555705)
The trend is to make solving problems easier for the untrained; giving the heavy lifting to the machines, making the machines slower for the actual task at hand. Nobody is actually targeting the experts who will love to have more power over safety
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by oblio on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @03:54AM (#17556209)
This won't be popular here, but maybe the economics work against the experts. If most problems out there can be solved with mediocre interchangeable cogs much faster than with the available pool of experts, the cogs will win long term.

So far, reality seems to confirm my intuition.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by z3phyr on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @04:31AM (#17556372)
I do not disagree with you here. In the economic (real) world, "better" is the enemy of "good enough". In the hacker world, the craft is appreciated more.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by Koshkin on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @07:12PM (#17554329)
> you can't say "linux

Can I say "pretty much all of Linux userspace"? Or Java VM? Or Gnome?

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by JackMorgan on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @04:33PM (#17553089)
We would absolutely have all those things still writing in C, the biggest difference between C of 30 years ago and modern Java are _libraries and IDEs_, not higher level programming. Those things you listed are pretty much all Java, and Java doesn't really provide any "higher level" thinking other than forgetting about memory management.

A lot of optimizations left on the table have nothing to do with manual memory management, and have everything to do with "eh, let's just the query the database again, that'll shave a day off the schedule".

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by stouset on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:07PM (#17553897)
Why exactly do you think we have all these things for modern languages and not C despite its incredible head start?

Answer that and I get the feeling you’ll understand why your current thinking is so misguided.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by otakucode on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:12PM (#17552251)
The introduction of automobiles permitted the development of F1 racecar drivers, but just ended up with most people dragging themselves around to get food and money. The introduction of the printing press permitted the publication of pamphlets and books that overturned world governments and dethroned kings... but most people used it to trade porn and recipe books.

Technology doesn't make people better. It lets people do better things if they have the desire to do so. It also must enable them to do worse things if they have the desire to do so. You can not have one without the other. And on the balance things have historically gotten better so there's not too much reason to be worried about the fact most people just use global communication to bicker. They won't be remembered. Those who are, however, wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

As for where quantum computing factors into this, I don't have the slightest clue.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by malloryerik on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @07:12PM (#17554327)
"The introduction of the printing press permitted the publication of pamphlets and books that overturned world governments and dethroned kings... but most people used it to trade porn and recipe books."

As Timothy Snyder notes when discussing the internet, the introduction of the printing press divided Western Christianity thereby causing a century and a half of religious wars in which a third of the population was killed. And later it gave us the Enlightenment and educated society.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by misterprime on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:31PM (#17554067)
Excellent context to frame this discussion.

"They won't be remembered."

-otakucode

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by ahelwer on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:47PM (#17551584)
Quantum computers won't change anything about people posting misinformed political opinions.

Three orders of magnitude speedup is a constant factor. Quantum computers provide between sqrt(n) and log(n) speedup depending on the problem - for example, biochemistry simulation for improved drug designs and such. That seems worthwhile.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by FartyMcFarter on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @05:26PM (#17553577)
Quantum computers are not faster computers that we can use to write lazier code. If they were you might have a point.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by _match on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:54PM (#17552125)
Honestly, I'd love to see examples of rotted code that could be made exponentially faster. I'm likely guilty of this.

And I agree that it's disheartening to watch how horribly we use these incredible tools. But thankfully as programmers we're in a position to design these tools to offset the worst parts of humanity.

And one field in which more powerful computers will be needed soon is deep learning. It appears that progress is beginning to stall, as larger networks are necessary. Better tools for distributed computing will make up the difference in the short term, but the current infrastructure appears to be insufficient for general intelligence.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by tzahola on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:49PM (#17552637)
>And one field in which more powerful computers will be needed soon is deep learning. It appears that progress is beginning to stall, as larger networks are necessary. Better tools for distributed computing will make up the difference in the short term, but the current infrastructure appears to be insufficient for general intelligence.

"In 50 years, every street in London will be buried under nine feet of manure."

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by yadaeno on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @04:12AM (#17556283)
Moores law says that programming is allowed to get half as efficient every year!
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:07PM (#17551742)
> And we all use them just to rant at each other about political things that we in reality are totally misinformed about ... and otherwise just waste our lives.

So if I decide to use the device that I have bought and invested in, to "rant" about something (to connect to other people through it, essentially), or even just connect to my loved ones sending "meaningless" information (as many I'm sure would call it), or if I choose to use it for anything else, who is to say that it's "wasting my life"? You? Why do you decide what is wasteful and what is not? Maybe all those people want to do those things?

You can't say that this technology is wasted or is not used properly without also implicitly assuming moral and philosophical authority about what people should choose and not to choose with their time and other resources, including the money used to buy such devices and resources spend on developing them. Why do you assume that you can be such an authority?

Of course, looking at this in another way, you definitely have the ultimate authority in this area in this one regard: where it applies to your own life. Which I guess is another way of saying that what you wrote says more about your outlook on life than on the underlying technology and its social ramifications.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by sgc on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:05PM (#17552201)
I think many people would find intellectually boring your position of absolute personal freedom with no objective measure of excellence, along with your aggressive defense of such. But there is also objective information which would support OP's position for someone who considers objectivity in the personal sphere of little value: heavy computer and mobile use has been linked many times with psychological difficulties, including anxiety, depression, stress, etc. Please don't pontificate on other's allusion to human well being by presenting your own moral code to be imposed.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by jancsika on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @11:08PM (#17555327)
> And we all use them just to rant at each other about political things that we in reality are totally misinformed about ... and otherwise just waste our lives.

You're certainly free to find the relevant response to that intellectually boring. But it's quite a leap from OP's totalizing statement of despair to implicitly fill in that ellipsis with "allusion to human well being."

I'd like to be generous in my reading, but I don't see any room in there for a discussion of "heavy" vs healthy device use.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by Erlich_Bachman on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @06:21PM (#17553991)
Many deep profound things are intellectually boring. For many people that's a big obstacle to overcome in order to learn them. I can't see how "being boring" is any substantive argument for or against any question discussed here.

The original author used his "objective measure of excellence" as an argument for not developing quantum computing technologies to be used in personal devices. In this specific instance, in this practical regard (even though it's probably 50 years too early for this question) - I argue that yes, the position of personal freedom (to use quantum computing in cell phones, exaggeratedly) does indeed trump the other position which is to actively exclude quantum computing from phones for the vague fear that people might waste their lives on it, by failing to fit into some objective measure of excellence.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by tzahola on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @03:29PM (#17552429)
What a long-winded way to say: "That's just your opinion"
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by reaperducer on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @12:59PM (#17551173)
Problems that are waiting to be solved by it are very large and of huge impact

I know virtually nothing about quantum computing, so can you give some examples? Whenever I've asked anyone who seemed to know anything about the field, all they can come up with is weather forecasting and simulating nuclear explosions. Not exactly "general use," as you put it.

In the back of my mind, I know that quantum computing is a big deal, and we're in ENIAC days with it. But I don't have a good understanding of where it goes or why.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by adrianN on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:14PM (#17551305)
Quantum computers are extremely useful for simulating chemistry. They can do it exponentially faster than classical computers. Cheap useful quantum computers can revolutionize biology and materials science.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by foxes on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:24PM (#17551386)
There are already lots of 'practical' applications in the literature. A famous one is Shor's factorisation algorithm. But there are others - everything from doing pagerank to simulating other quantum systems.

Many classical algorithms, which run in ~O(poly(n)) can have an 'equivalent' quantum algorithm in ~O(log(n)) - an exponential speedup. There is still debate as to how the complexity class of problems which are efficient on a quantum computer (BQP) relate to other complexity classes. Its suspected P lies entirely within BQP.

However, at least initially, I think quantum computers will be a specialized piece of equipment. Classical computing is pretty good for your average person. Quantum computers will be used for more heavy compute tasks.

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by moefh on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @05:48PM (#17553742)
> Its suspected P lies entirely within BQP.

It's actually known that BQP contains P[1]. It also contains BPP. What's not known is the relationship between BQP and NP (most experts suspect there's no containment in either direction).

[1] See this for an easy proof: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~vazirani/f04quantum/notes/...

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by foxes on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @04:40AM (#17556394)
Yes sorry you are right. I found this nice example of Grover's algorithm [0].

[0] http://davidbkemp.github.io/animated-qubits/grover.html

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by hrygolis on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @05:26AM (#17556617)
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by moefh on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:57PM (#17560047)
That's still only relative to an oracle, though (i.e., BQP^O vs NP^O). We also have oracle separations of P and NP, and that proves nothing about P vs NP without an oracle.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by zjaffee on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:20PM (#17551841)
I'd also add that the need for localized personal computing services goes down as network bandwidth increases, if there's anything that people really need quantum computers for, it's not unreasonable to suggest that they will be handled on the backend with aggregated results sent to clients as is the case for most computation today.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by bdamm on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:48PM (#17551586)
Is Shor's an application of entanglement though?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by teraflop on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:23PM (#17551861)
Yes, all non-trivial quantum computing is based on entanglement.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by techbio on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:22PM (#17551367)
Protein folding and gene research. Cure malaria, cancer, feed the world etc.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by kart23 on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @01:24AM (#17555741)
Doesn't basically all encryption become meaningless with quantum computers? Remember how they always said 'it would take a billion years to crack this encryption with a computer'? Well soon we are going to have computers that don't play by the rules.
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by chrisweekly on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:03PM (#17551222)
ENIAC?
Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by SimbaOnSteroids on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @01:07PM (#17551251)
One of the first computers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC

Re:Chinese Researchers Achieve Quantum Entanglement Record by Cobord on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @02:06PM (#17551733)
Because of the expense it will have to start off as QCaaS. You send the really hard part of your problem to whichever person actually has the hardware and they'll return the answer. If you are concerned with them not knowing your data, there are workarounds to that as well. So available to general public in a weaker sense.