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Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by qznc on Friday June 08, 2018 @02:34PM (#17268424)
I fully agree with you. I also dismissed Google Glass and other hypes. I feel smart about that.

On the other hand, if someone would have pitched Facebook to me, I would have also dismissed it. I keep that mind to stay humble.

For any trend/hype there will always be people dismissing and praising it. Thus, if it is successful or not, there will be people who say "I told you so" afterwards.

It does not matter what a comment on HN says. You personally have to decide, if you want to speculate/invest in some hype or not. You have to decide which new technology you learn and which ones you ignore. In hindsight, it would have been great to learn machine learning five years ago.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jandrese on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:07PM (#17268706)
Eh, Facebook was a natural evolution of social networks going back to MySpace, Friendstr, SixDegrees. Each one fixing mistakes of the past and becoming the next big thing until their own mistakes caught up to them.

The one that I dismissed was Twitter. In fact I thought it was a joke when I first heard about it, something making fun of how long winded boring blog posts on services like Livejournal tended to be. I also thought Vine would be doomed to fail.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by waynecochran on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:12PM (#17268752)
I never thought Uber nor Airbnb would be successful. Who invites strangers in their home or car. I was told as a kid to never get in a stranger's car ... now, as an adult, I am riding with strangers all the time.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jandrese on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:30PM (#17268931)
You never take taxis? Airbnb is even less of a stretch since B&Bs were the original hotel.

Uber was not a surprise at all for me because I'd been complaining about the bloated and horrible taxicab system for many years. It was a market that was crying out for disruption. I remember in 2008 my local taxicab company had exactly two ways to hail a cab: phone or fax. They might or might not show up at the appointed time, and they'd certainly never send you any kind of updates. It cost upwards of $5 to step into the cab, and after that there were fees out the wazoo (per 1/6th mile fee, per 45 seconds fee, fee for having a bag, a fuel surcharge, a license surcharge, a regulatory recovery surcharge, and a couple others I forget). The cabs might have credit card readers but they were always broken so it was cash only. Drivers took weirdly roundabout backroads paths and always claimed it was fastest if you asked them about it, even though I knew the highway was not busy at 4am. Every single thing about the experience sucked. When they started crying later that Uber was killing their business my response was "good".

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by romwell on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:32PM (#17269883)
>Uber was not a surprise at all for me...

When I moved to the US in 2003, the lack of something like Uber was a surprise.

Not in the smartphone-app sense, of course (those didn't exist yet), but in the sense of regular-Joes-making-a-buck-giving-a-ride sense.

Back in Ukraine, there was no taxicab monopoly. You could hail a ride on the street simply by raising your hand - and someone would pick you up pretty fast. Some people did it for a living, some would use the extra income on the way to/from work if you were going in the same direction (not unlikely if you are standing on a major street going to downtown, for example).

The fares were unregulated and negotiated on the spot, but there was an equilibrium point for every route. (Unless you were a tourist, in which case you'll be almost surely ripped off - nothing any local would care about though).

And, of course, there was no rating system, which took away the incentives for drivers to go out of their way to maintain a nice appearance. Don't like it, don't take the ride; the next car is will stop by a minute later for you, the next passenger will be around the corner for the driver.

Other than the lack of ratings and fixed pricing, this worked like Uber works now in other aspects.

What might be surprising is that central pricing and ratings really don't make ridesharing much different from what I described. It made the system more accepted in the US, but the end result is pretty much the same: I can hail a ride anywhere from people I don't know. The system stabilizes at a price point and expected level of service.

And there's a remarkable similarity in the downsides of this system. My father made some money giving rides back in Ukraine between jobs, and while the short-term revenue looked great (compared to average monthly salaries), so much of it went into gas and maintenance that the whole gig was hardly worth it - and it took more time than a job.

This is what Uber drivers are discovering themselves right now. The ones who took out loans for their shiny cars are especially screwed.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by reaperducer on Friday June 08, 2018 @06:31PM (#17270266)
>Not in the smartphone-app sense, of course (those didn't exist yet), but in the sense of regular-Joes-making-a-buck-giving-a-ride sense.

These existed nationwide in the United States in the early days of the 20th century, until about WWII. In many cities they were called "jitneys." Some were organized enough to operate as simple, private, anonymous bus companies with fixed (but flexible) routes.

They started disappearing after WWII when most people outside the urban cores got a car, and municipal governments started taking over public transit.

These still exist in some places, but are mostly in ethnic minority communities and spread by word-of-mouth. (I know first-hand because I got hit head-on by one full of schoolchildren in the late 90's.)

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by caithrin on Saturday June 09, 2018 @11:07AM (#17273368)
I can’t speak to all of the US, but circa 2010 there was still a ton of people driving “private cars” in Brooklyn. You would negotiate up front with the driver and pay cash. My guess is 100% of those guys use Uber now.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by romwell on Saturday June 09, 2018 @02:20PM (#17274251)
True, but you wouldn't hail them from a random location in the city. You'd have to be in the right place to find them.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by SimonPStevens on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:50PM (#17269097)
Except Uber didn't start as a taxi replacement company. If you only remember it as a taxi company it was already after it had started to become successful.

It was initially a carpooling app. The original pitch was that regular drivers would just drive to their own intended location and have an ability to see people on route who wanted to go the same way. Much harder to pick that idea out as a future billion dollar company.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by nixme on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:13PM (#17269301)
What are you talking about? The original pitch was a black car service to fix the hailing problems of SF. It was even originally called UberCab. https://medium.com/@gc/the-beginning-of-uber-7fb17e544851
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by bertil on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:38PM (#17269928)
The original pitch was a black car service, but the legend that TK talks about, in Paris in the snowstorm of December 2008, was that he could ask “anyone there” to drive him, which is closer to carpooling.

(I was at that conference: everything went wrong, but it was mostly super cold. Cars were stuck in slippery snow, so someone suggesting the idea of carpooling sounds odd, but I suspect anyone there would have loved to wait out the traffic inside a heated car.)

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by adambyrtek on Friday June 08, 2018 @04:43PM (#17269516)
I think you are talking about Lyft not Uber.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by SimonPStevens on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:28PM (#17278826)
Yup. Looks like it was me that misremembered. My mistake.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by volkl48 on Friday June 08, 2018 @07:09PM (#17270468)
AirBnB is also less of a stretch because there were already pretty successful attempts paving the way for it.

I was using VRBO a decade ago for vacations. AirBnB is more distinguished by a slick UI than business model innovation.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by scarface74 on Saturday June 09, 2018 @12:32PM (#17273742)
Uber is still not a successful business model. It’s losing millions of dollars a quarter. Once they start charging enough not to have to subsidize rides and they can turn a profit and people still use them, then it can be called a success.

We still don’t know how price sensitive the average Uber customer is.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by tigershark on Saturday June 09, 2018 @07:09PM (#17275499)
If I’m not mistaken in mature markets, like US, they are actually profitable. They lose money (a lot of it) to expand in new markets.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by hiccuphippo on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:40PM (#17269025)
I've never taken an Uber in the original sense of car pooling. It's always been as a cab.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by noblethrasher on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:45PM (#17269072)
Before Twitter, people on AIM and similar services would use status messages to broadcast short little notes to their buddy list. I had the idea of turning that into a service in the early 2000s.

What surprised me was seeing a serious journalist like Wolf Blitzer regularly reading people's tweets on his prime time show.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by skinnymuch on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:32PM (#17278841)
The degree of Facebook (and Whatsapp and Messenger) amount of users is insane though. How many people possibly thought they would be at numbers or around 1.5B and 2.2B users?
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by captain_perl on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:10PM (#17268741)
I also thought twitter was a joke until I realized most Americans are too lazy to write a blog post, or even read one.

“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.” - Mencken (paraphrased)

http://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2011/09/no-one-ever-went-brok...

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by dboreham on Friday June 08, 2018 @06:36PM (#17270286)
Twitter is the weird thing it is because it began with an SMS interface (hence 140 characters). It took off originally because you didn't need a smart phone or a data plan or a PC to use it.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by vilmosi on Friday June 08, 2018 @07:53PM (#17270670)
I thought it took off because they managed to get celebrities on it.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by TheKarateKid on Friday June 08, 2018 @11:22PM (#17271340)
This. Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore were amongst the first celebrities on Twitter to actually post the content themselves rather than by a manager/PR agent. This got a lot of media attention and many other celebs followed shortly after.

I still remember finding it strange to see how Ashton and Demi personally wrote short messages, since every form of communication from famous people at the time were formal statements released via the press.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by tomhoward on Saturday June 09, 2018 @08:43AM (#17272746)
That happened a couple of years after it initially took off. Celebrities only took to it after it had gained solid traction among Silicon Valley types and social media early adopters.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by ISL on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:27PM (#17269849)
"Yo" did die (or at least appears zombified, with 32 Patreon supporters). One bit appears to be too few.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by scarface74 on Saturday June 09, 2018 @01:00PM (#17273867)
It’s not about being “lazy”. Most of the people I follow are both bloggers and podcasters. But not everything is not worthy of a blog post and I would hate for my RSS reader to be polluted with everything they tweet about (even if it is interesting.)
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by briandear on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:23PM (#17268852)
How many blog posts are being read and written by the French? The “Americans are too lazy” trope is just ridiculous.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by monkpit on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:41PM (#17269032)
I find that many comment like gp online are equally valid with the word “Americans” replaced with “people”. It irks me as well.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by solarkraft on Friday June 08, 2018 @07:20PM (#17270522)
Yes, but it does preserve some uncertainty about the rest of the world. The author may only feel comfortable enough to make a comment about Americans.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by JoshCole on Friday June 08, 2018 @07:50PM (#17270661)
This comic kind of captures what you two are getting at, though I think you are applying the idea a little more generally.

https://xkcd.com/1138/

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by orb_yt on Friday June 08, 2018 @10:10PM (#17271125)
Glass wasn't hype by any means, it just didn't take hold in the consumer market (which, who's to say Google didn't predicate that). It's been in use by massive enterprises for years now, from Boeing to GE to large healthcare organizations.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by the-dude on Friday June 08, 2018 @05:09PM (#17269700)
The famous HN Dropbox comment!
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by throwawayqdhd on Saturday June 09, 2018 @03:20AM (#17271938)
I wouldn't dismiss Facebook for the simple fact that it plays to something deeply human: to connect with other people.

But while it does that, it also plays to something even more deeply human: to watch other people from afar, and to replace complex, anxiety-ridden face-to-face interactions with easier, gentler text-based communication.

Google Glass and all the other hyped techs never struck at anything deeply human. VR is nice and all as a tech, but it's not something we've always done.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by scabarott on Sunday June 10, 2018 @12:50AM (#17276595)
I would say it is still early days for VR. I was a skeptic at first till I got my own VR rig, now I'm convinced it's the future even if I don't know what time-frame that is going to be. As for Google glass it was just a little ahead of it's time and it's even gaining traction on the enterprise side.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Fnoord on Sunday June 10, 2018 @04:57AM (#17277243)
It seems you and GP are confusing VR and AR.

VR, virtual reality, is a complete immersion in a virtual world. A 3D game, a 3D movie, a 3D Minecraft, you name it.

AR, augmented reality, is additional "augmented" information in the real world.

VR is nowhere NEAR ready for mass consumer market. There's 2 screens on the glasses with very low resolution. Because the glasses are very much near the eyes, pixels are very apparent. That's ugly. Furthermore, you need a big fat gaming rig with a 1000 EUR/USD graphics card for the current low resolution. And then there is the issue of the data transmission. Those huge wires (its not wireless yet, and wireless suffers from more lag). Finally, it is pricey.

AR from Google Glass flopped due to privacy concerns. It would aid users in their day to day life like a smartphone or smartwatch does. Its being used for this purpose in business settings (also due to its price) just like some other expensive tools by Microsoft such as Hololens and Surface Hub (84"). The user interface isn't quite there. For example I'd say eye tracking is useful. Some cars also get HUD in windscreen.

(YMMV but as a glass user who uses glasses which also work like sunglasses in the direct sunlight, I'd love to have a pimped glasses with AR.)

Anyway, in short, my conclusion, is:

VR is mostly fun, though some useful sims (e.g. flight trainers, but also things like 3D meetings would make Hyperloop and air travel redundant which saves time & environment) do use it as well. It is more of a niche than AR. AR is going to be part of our every day life in useful/productive ways. AR will be vastly more rampant, and it will be in use in a massive scale earlier than VR will be.

As a side thought imagine going on vacation in VR and it being just like the real thing cause you're on a robot. Your 5 senses get stimulated while you walk through Cairo. You smell the spice whilst you walk through the market on your robot which you control. Why actually still go on vacation then? I already have enough pleasure with Google Photos or the new Windows 10 login screen as it is. Going to see the Eifel Tower which you already saw hundreds of time on pictures is boring as is receiving that piece of metal on a postcard. Oh well.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by scabarott on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:48PM (#17279223)
"It seems you and GP are confusing VR and AR" I'm doing no such thing. I don't know where in my comment you got such an impression. If you bothered to read it you'll see I mention that I own a VR rig. I certainly know the difference. Also I would have agreed with your comment about VR being nowhere ready 2 years ago. While it's not quite ready for mass market primetime it's definitely at a stage where the average Joe can get a lot of mileage out of it (unlike AR which is mostly hype at the moment). I would say it's currently at the stage that PCs where at in the mid 80's. BTW you don't need a 'big fat gaming rig' and a dedicated graphics card - I don't know where you are but here in the US you can get the Oculus Go which is a standalone unit for less than $200. It's not the full VR experience but its good enough that I would consider buying it over a gaming console or even a tablet. I think you should have more experience with VR before you make grandiose statements knocking it publicly. As for AR I haven't really had a lot of opportunity to try it out (except for Glass). It may well overtake VR at some point but at the moment most AR projects are at the concept stage or just hype.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Fnoord on Sunday June 10, 2018 @04:55PM (#17280099)
> If you bothered to read it

Oh I read your post, its against HN guidelines to assume and express someone else has not read your post or the content.

If you read the post of your GP (and that GP as well) you'll see they're casually mixing up AR and VR. You do the same, and I called you all out on the difference between the two. There's no need to feel offended about that.

You say you haven't had an opportunity to try AR, and mention Google Glass. The thing is, Google Glass is just one example of AR (a very known one) and also a very multi-functional one. The usability I had in mind is more subtle, more specific.

Examples: Layar has been out for ages (it adds AR on your smartphone screen from camera input e.g. adding complimentary digital info to a paper magazine or food you bought), if you have multiple smartphone cameras you use it, LIDAR uses it, Google Maps ecosystem as well (Street View for example). AI in general can use it. There's all kind of usages of AR such as this traffic light [1]. Not even mentioning about the experiment on how biking lanes are being lit up due to solar energy in the evening/night. Google Glass could've potentially done that all, but there's no reason that cannot exist in the future. It was just the wrong company to come first with the product. Google was also too early with it, just like Apple Newton was too early and GM was too early with the EV.

My first time using VR was on vacation in Spain as a child, using those red/green glasses we were watching a dinosaur movie. It was rather primitive, but immersive. I'm not anti; I just see it rather limited. I've read enough reviews about VR glasses and read reviews of VR games -including realistic screenshots- to know that the quality isn't there yet.

Long-term, VR will make more impact, but that's because it is so different whereas AR is rather complimentary. On the short term, AR is going to be more widespread and useful. I mean, I'd love a HUD on my windscreen telling me I am speeding. Like, of course.

[1] https://dutchreview.com/news/dutch/smart-crossing-dutch-inve...

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by scabarott on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:44PM (#17281155)
>If you read the post of your GP (and that GP as well)

>Its against HN guidelines to assume and express someone else has not read your post or the content

Hmmm. Uh-huh well, if you're talking about limited AR such as in HUDs or Pokemon Go or glass, that's already here and it's cool and useful, but not very exciting (at least to me). No doubt AR will be a thing in everyday life. I don't see why people (myself included) talk about both technologies (AR & VR) as if its a zero-sum game and we'll only have one but not the other. No reason they both can't exist in the brave new future.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Fnoord on Sunday June 10, 2018 @10:15PM (#17281254)
I wasn't implying you didn't read the posts (like you implied with "If you bothered to read it"). I asked the reader (e.g. you) to read the posts, as in reread them. That's a subtle difference. I didn't say reread but that's what I meant though. When I wrote that, I actually went to reread them myself to double check if I really misunderstood the context. Frankly, after rereading it, I came to the conclusion nope I did not though I might've better replied to your parent. Either way, the two were clearly being mixed up throughout this discussion.

I'd say, that when AR is "boring" that actually means it succeeds. It blends in without being annoying.

If you remember the time when desktops and mobile phones and smartphones become boring; that is when they started to gain traction among the common man; arguably, when they started to become good.

Take the traffic light example I mentioned earlier. If that's rolled out and seen as "boring", I'm happy with it. Because that means it works. Right now, it isn't yet boring, btw. It is seen as an innovation.

Same with innovations like electric vehicle and autonomous cars. Once they're "boring", their functionality is accepted. And we are talking about the "West"; it hasn't been adopted in poorer countries at all, not yet.

VR def. has the wow factor, I agree on that. Look at all the VR movies the past 30 years. AR is much less apparent, though its there as well.

Ultimately, for me games are just spielerei they might be fun (not so much for me anymore as I grow older); they have little to nothing to do with productivity. AR is going to be more useful for productivity than VR. I just don't see a lot of use for VR, especially not on the short term. You can notice this how the VR glasses are largely marketed for gaming, while AR has professional applications which -ultimately- aim to make our lives easier.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by scabarott on Monday June 11, 2018 @12:11AM (#17281704)
>I wasn't implying you didn't read the posts (like you implied with "If you bothered to read it")

My apologies, my tone was probably a little aggressive.

Gaming is the original VR killer app intended to gin up interest and spur development but current VR offerings go beyond that. One of the more interesting applications so far is 'live events' where your digital avatar can attend live sporting events, concerts etc with other digital avatars (you have to experience this to understand what a potential game changer this is). Even watching regular (i.e 2D) movies in an immersive environment on my headset is more fun than watching it on my tv, with the drawback that as of now you can't share the experience with other people not wearing a headset. I'm just scratching the surface of content that is already available NOW (there's even porn if that's your thing, though I personally don't find this very compelling mostly because of the low resolution). Ultimately, if things go the way I think they might, your VR headset would potentially replace not just your gaming console but also your TV set and your laptop/home office (currently I can play chess in a virtual room with only primitive controllers so I don't think working while completely immersed in a virtual environment is a long way off). If you do have the chance I encourage you to take some time to catch up with the current state of the art.

I agree with you that 'boring' is good but in the world we live in unfortunately new tech has to be 'sexy' and 'exciting' to attract venture money and developer interest it needs to get to the boring stage.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by shafyy on Sunday June 10, 2018 @09:35AM (#17278037)
Of course, there are wireless VR headsets. Check out the Oculus Go. I think this might be the start of VR going mainstream.
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by Fnoord on Sunday June 10, 2018 @11:49AM (#17278641)
Interesting, didn't know that, but you'll need a hell of a rig to render two screen of like say 4k. And the quality isn't like having a 4k TV at 2 or 3 meters distance.

The requirement of a high-end GPU, and the current price of high-end GPUs thanks to the cryptocurrency mania, meddle with the adoption.

We're far from VR being mainstream; AR costs far less resources.

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by shafyy on Sunday June 10, 2018 @01:14PM (#17279034)
Yeah I think it will take another couple of years for VR to become mainstream (i.e. smartphone mainstream). But I think the Oculus Go is the beginning of the mainstream adoption (maybe like a Palm, and we need 1-2 years more for the "iPhone").

From my experience, VR is a huge gamechanger (a new paradigm that will enable a lot of new innovation) whereas AR is also cool but doesn't have that new paradigm potential (like e.g. the internet, smartphones etc. did).

Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by NicoJuicy on Saturday June 09, 2018 @04:14AM (#17272070)
Google Glass and chatbots solve both something though. Onboarding new users in production and reducing customer queries
Re:Chatbots were the next big thing: what happened? by jt2190 on Friday June 08, 2018 @03:34PM (#17268972)
This is an excellent point!

We should also keep in mind that chatbots are clearly a thing that people want; we're just using capitalism to test whether society, technology, etc. are "there" yet, so it's not entirely irrational for investment to flow into this area. (We might debate the scale of the investments, or we can just let the market determine that for us.)