Even using the correct drivers Phillips head screws tend to strip. I have both drivers, and the Pozidriv screws seem to strip quite a lot less frequently than the Phillips. Of course neither strips as rarely as Torx, Allen, or Robinson. Hex bolts are also great.

Phillips screws are design to have the driver leave the socket if it is over-torqued. Frequently people keep going after this has occurred which results in stripped heads, but if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen.

I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out. Especially when the application requires thread locking compound and has been out in the field for a few months or years - even when they had been properly torqued with a torque wrench.

We abandoned Phillips and Pozidriv completely and went to Torx for the screws (we were already using hex for bolts). Haven’t really had any issues stripping out screws since.

Even without thread locking compound, if the thing they're stuck in has corroded the screw/bolt or expanded. Phillips shouldn't strip going in, but it sure as hell strips coming out.

Yeah, this is compounded by the fact that our products go into marine environments - all our fasteners are 316 stainless but there are still sometimes galvanic issues.

Stainless fasteners are the worst. My company builds food equipment so they're a necessity, but... ugh. They gall terribly and they're squishy. If there happens to be a burr or crud in the threads, you might as well grab your angle grinder and drill, because that screw is not going to come out any other way.

It's interesting you say that, because I had a good experience with stainless!

I used to use a lot of stainless bolts on machines that went into hostile[1] environments. We used a variety of hex socket bolts, with thread lock compounds and calibrated torgue drivers to put them in and uncalibrated drivers to take them out when they eventually came back for refurb.

We rarely had problems putting them in or taking them out.

I don't know why problems were so rare. I think it being a safety critical industry helped: we bought expensive bolts and tools, and people had some training to use them.

[1] These were used on "Chock Control Interfaces". Here's a video. The box he's pushing buttons on is a chock control interface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s

Here's an explanation of longwall mining and what a chock is (simply, powered roof supports that move forward as the cutting tool removes material): http://undergroundcoal.com.au/fundamentals/07_equipment_1cho...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longwall_mining#Equipment

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmwEB4DY_jc&t=169s

Going on a tangent here, but are miners not supposed to wear any kind of breathing protection?!

Phillips is incompatible with thread lock assuming you want to take them out. If threadlock is not used the removal torque is actually less than the insertion and it shouldn't be a problem in this case.

I wish auto manufacturers knew this.

They do. Cars are engineered to fail and some models are sold even at loss to get the profit from OEM parts and service. This is also often the reason why seemingly similar parts are incompatible from one model to the next; the manufacturers are racing against the (often much more durable) aftermarket parts. If they were in the business of making cars great for the consumers, they'd engineer them strong with grease fittings on every moving joint and have all parts standardized across models and brands, differentiated mostly by car size or such (supercompact vs crossover suv vs heavy-duty truck). This would however result in cars that would be easily maintained to last forever, like some old work equipment is and that'd be bad for the planned obsolescence market model of car manufacturers.

And yet, cars still last for two decades or more if maintained properly, and are IMO some of the most reliable pieces of gear out there - I'm finding newer models to be better in that regard than older ones (but maybe that's bias on my side, I haven't driven older cars in a while now)

Yes, if maintained properly, which means swapping out these engineered to fail parts every so often, which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair. For instance on VAG cars, the designed to fail cash-cow parts are typically the various suspension bushings. Once such a part is worn out, resulting in a part that has excessive backlash, it'll cause prematurely worn out parts in the rest of the system it's a part of as well.

My daily driver is a 25 year old car that I'm keeping on preventive maintenance. I got it when it was 16 years old and still in pretty good shape since it was barely used and always kept in a warm garage. I've always had pretty old, but well maintained cars in order to minimize the total cost of ownership of them, and kept them running until something too difficult or expensive breaks. I never value them for what I'd get for selling them, because I've never sold a car nor planned to. To me, the car value is always the utility and TCO value of knowing the state of them via preventive maintenance repairs. Usually the failing part not worth fixing is the body, either due to a collision or rust damage.

In addition to always inspecting an used car from underneath, a thing I learned early was to replace all the cash-cow OEM parts with upgraded parts when possible. If not, at least try to have repaired parts made that are improved at the point of failure to be stronger than OEM parts, so that they don't fail the same way again. Factoring the preventive repair into the price of the used car is required in order to be sure to afford owning the car. After that initial preventive repair, it's about checking the parts stay like new, or it becomes very expensive to keep very quickly once something fails after a part's worn out.

Anyhow, look at farm equipment, mine equipment and such to see what vehicles not engineered to fail are constructed like, and I don't mean the extra robustness of the loadbearing parts for the much larger workloads they're designed for.

"which becomes uneconomical at least in the resale sense at some point in time, because the repaired car resale value is less than the cost of repair."

I think this is a common misconception about car repair economics. The question is not whether the repair cost is more than the value of the car, the question is whether the repair cost + sale cost is higher than the value of the repaired car. I like keeping cars that I know the history of, even if the car is worth <$2,000 and the repairs >$1000, because it is unlikely that I can get a $3000 car that I have as much confidence in.

And advice on identifying such cash-cow parts? My vehicle repair knowledge is limited.

Experience first-hand or via experts who repair them daily, the former can be done by owning the same car or brand for a longer while and spotting the pattern.

Prefer makes that have excellent rust protection and models with relatively low stress configuration engines rather than high performance models. The two latter are usually mechanically the same or mostly the same, but the latter of them receive much larger stresses in use and hence tend to fail earlier.

If you intend to modify the car, prefer older ones, because they have lower regulations, but this depends on the legislative area you are in as well. For instance cars with OBD-II are too new for engine upgrades almost anywhere.

OP is being downvoted for starting off on a rant, but he is 100% correct about the grease fittings.

Maybe it's that they don't care. Last transmission I rebuilt (following.factory service manual) had a Phillips fastener with threadlock on it that required destructive removal after careful use of a manual impact driver. Replaced it with a threadlocked Allen fastener.

> destructive removal

When in doubt, drill it out?

>I’ve mainly had the problem when getting them out.

Yeah, that's your problem right there. Removing an old Phillips screw will take more (usually much more) torque than it took to install it, so it'll cam out. The problem is that you're trying to get them out. Don't do that. Phillips screws were never designed for removal that way. They were meant to be used for installation only, and to limit torque on installation. If it's been installed with thread-locker, that should be a sign to you that it's never supposed to be removed. If you want a screw that's meant to be removed after years of service, pick something else; Phillips is not designed for this.

Unfortunately, if you're trying to remove a screw after years of service, chances are you weren't the one who originally decided what type of screw head to use.

He's correct about this. Phillips was an early attempt at a one-way fastener. Doesn't mean the manufacturer isn't a dick for using them.

If you're working on something really important, like auto mechanics or the like, consider buying new fasteners when you reach re-assembly. Those old stretched bolts probably need to be freshened up anyway.

>if you listen to what the tool is trying to tell you then it shouldn't happen.

The problem is when the tool is telling you the screw is tight enough but it's only halfway in. Or hasn't come out yet. That's where the stripping happens.

There's a whole set of skills needed. If it's only half way in when it cams out, then you need a bigger pilot hole. If you're screwing into wood, another useful tip is to dip the screws in vaseline (petroleum jelly) first.

If you're getting stuck removing the screw, wait 6 months for the humidity profile to change and the wood to open up.

I'm being slightly factious and I share your pain. The vaseline tip is real though.

Recently, Fender (the electric guitar manufacturer) began offering vintage reissue models with the originally-issued flathead screws, at some point years ago they had switched to Phillips. When doing any kind of modification or repair, I realised after getting one of the vintage models that I preferred flathead for that reason. Phillips is bad on guitars because not only is it easy to strip the head, but you can also end up dinging the top of the guitar when the screwdriver tip dislodges and hits the nice top finish.

This is also why you should only use a hand screwdriver and not a power driven driver bit.

That is as much a technique problem as it is a fastener problem.

Use a torque driver if you can. And always bracket the bit with your fingers.

If you are straining, something is wrong.

The article states that there is no evidence for this being part of the design.

It is mentioned in later patents, and regardless it is a specific part of the tool's behavior. Its continued use is based upon this fact.

Yup, article says that too. But it wasn’t originally by design.

Torx is the way to go. I try to only buy GRK screws now if I can help it. They're more expensive, but it's so much harder to strip them with the star head geometry.

IMHO, the Phillips head is pure evil and persists mostly because it’s one of the best ways to cause consumer-induced early obsolescence in any product that requires assembly by the end-consumer. It’s a huge unspoken conspiracy in the manufacturing world: “You supply Phillips screws. I supply Phillips screws. Everybody supplies Phillips screws. Everybody stays happy (except the consumers).”

“You stripped the screw head because you didn’t apply enough pressure.” O’RLY?

I wish governments would gradually outlaw Phillips. And I predict that the EU will be the pioneers in doing this.

I’m half kidding and half ranting.

Here in France, I've seen not much Phillips (usually for small appliances or screws in plastic)..

I sent IKEA an email asking them to specify the difference between pozidriv and Phillips in their installation manuals (many people don't know), but they didn't reply :'(

I can only agree, Pozidriv is so much better! I recently bought specifically both philips and pozi head screwdrivers, and Ive generally had both before but it still a hassle to always select the right one.

Pozidriv is the devil. It's impossible to distinguish visually in many cases between Philips and Pozidriv. Just use Torx, Square, or Hex. That way there is no confusion.

Protip: All Ikea furniture with screws use Pozidriv heads. (Everything with bolts using Allen heads, of course.)

It's unfortunate that Ikea doesn't seem to publicize this or provide drive heads with their furniture (AFAIR). I was glad I picked some up before I did a kitchen with Ikea cabinets. It saved me a lot of grief.

I don't think they provide it with their kitchen elements, but for all furniture they provide a hex key for assembly and assume that you have a screw driver yourself.

Assume you have a posidrive screwdriver, which you probably don't. That was the point of this thread.

At all of the nearby hardware stores, there is a wide arrangement of pozidrive screwdrivers. If I recall correctly all of my "cross" bits for the powertool is pozidrive as well. It may not be widely available in the US, but it certainly is here in Denmark.

Pozidrive screwdrivers and bits are readily available in the US but have low cultural awareness; particularly, the indicator that heads require them and not Phillips is not recognized.

Exactly so, 99% of people have never heard of posidriv and don't have the bits, or don't know they have the bits. I couldn't find anywhere in instructions or the website where Ikea mentions that you should use them, but sure enough every screw used posidriv.

From http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/09/16/what-is-the-diffe...:

"A Phillips bit fits in a Pozidriv screw head, but it will most likely cam out before the fastener is fully tight. This can damage the fastener and is why that cup hinge loosens up so quickly when a Phillips bit is used. A Pozidriv bit does not fit in a Phillips screw."

> A Pozidriv bit does not fit in a Phillips screw[citation needed]

A Pozidriv bit fits in a philips juuuust well enough for you to not notice it's the wrong bit.

Yeah, I don't think "that's not phillips, that's pozidrive" is a good excuse. If they're that close, then pozidrive is just a non-standardard-complying phillips bit. It's the IE6 of screw heads, and the confusion is all their own fault.

The Phillips is the IE6 of screw heads. Pozidriv is an improved version which has long since replaced Phillips in Europe. I was unaware that Phillips screw heads were still common in the US until reading this thread.

It seems Phillips is just an outdated but standards-complying head. No one wants to use it because there are better tools for the job these days, but it did serve its purpose once. Whereas Pozidrive just duct-taped a few updates to the old standard and decided to call it good rather than fixing the actual problems.

There's no reason to have kept the same form-factor for the two varieties, it just leads to unnecessary confusion. The fact that you can plug an incorrect driver into it is, by definition, broken. Like how USB and Ethernet jacks are the same size, so you can plug your USB stick into Ethernet (which luckily does nothing harmful) but you can't plug Ethernet into USB.

If you're going to update an old standard and that requires an incompatibility with the old standard, you should come up with an entirely new form factor to ensure people won't mistakenly use the old connector with the new technology.

Though to be honest here in the US I've never seen Pozidrive and I just checked, I have zero drivers for a Pozidrive screw. Phillips really is just that awful all by itself.

It's not like pozidriv screws are unmarked. And in any case these days if you buy 200 screws you get a bit thrown in for free at most places. 100% correct fit all of the time.

pozidrive is pretty easy to distinguish because it's got the little star point deals. Like this:

https://www.belmetric.com/images/MSOVAL5X50SS%20Machine%20Sc...

They are becoming more common; my latest ikea thing came with some, but it's pretty visually obvious, is all I'm saying. Once you know what they are, you aren't gonna get it mixed up.

JIS vs Phillips, on the other hand, is usually way less clear cut. I mean, JIS is supposed to have the dimple, but it doesn't always, and figuring out which of your screwdrivers is the JIS is even harder. (I personally am having a hard time finding JIS screwdrivers that are... decent. most of the sets I see that are clearly marked are really low end sets from Hozan (which is a fine tool company, it's just that the JIS screwdriver sets I see that are clearly marked as such are... pretty low end compared to my wera/whia/xcelite drivers.

Ah, I must be using the wrong driver then. Oh wait, nope, it's stripping because it's just inherently inferior. Sorry, you always see people pointing out the existence of Pozidriv, but it really makes little difference. They both strip like you've tucked a hundred in their thong.

Well, that and the infernal JIS heads.

And then we get into the joy of JIS screwdrivers. Good god, the amount of stripped fasteners on japanese motorcycles caused by that slight angle change is ludicrous, and they're nearly impossible to tell apart by looking at them. The only reliable way to know is prior experience/national origin.

Another common failure mode is to use a driver that is too small. For a lot of people you need to look at the head, then pick the driver 1 size larger than you think you need for the screw. It's deceptive.

You will be surprised how much less prone to stripping it is once you have the correct size driver.

Reminds me of the slight difference between Phillips head and JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) drivers.

Yes, very important when working on decades old Japanese motorcycles. Hozan make some nice sets if anybody is looking.

And Japanese cameras.

Maybe I run into a different problem, but I feel if that's the case then a lot of Pozidriv headed fasteners are sold as Phillips head?

It still seems like it would be difficult to know WHICH type of screw you're dealing with, even if you have the right tools.