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Re:Subscription Hell by wpietri on Sunday May 06, 2018 @04:44PM (#17008412)
A model I really like is the one IntelliJ uses. They encourage you to buy a subscription. But when you buy a year at once, you get a "perpetual fallback license" such that you can always keep using the version that is current when you buy: https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

That means I always will have access to my projects and to the level of functionality I start with. But I keep getting upgrades as long as I keep paying, and they get the steady revenue stream that means they don't have to play weird marketing games.

Re:Subscription Hell by rolleiflex on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:38PM (#17008715)
One thing that always rubbed me wrong about this is that, logically speaking, if you buy a license for a year, the perpetual fallback license should be the version you had at the end of the license, not the one that was on the market at the beginning of it. It doesn't really make sense the way they do it, and it feels like a particularly hamfisted attempt to grab an almost negligible amount of money, so I'm puzzled.
Re:Subscription Hell by lultimouomo on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:44PM (#17008751)
It's not the negligible amount of money that matters. The trick is that at the end of your yearly subscription you have already upgraded to a newer version, so falling back to the perpetual license means downgrading, which is both often a practical problem and (perhaps most importantly) something that I think many have an emotional aversion to.

I'm pretty sure that if the fallback license was to the most recent version you're entitled to during your subscription way more people would take leaps between the end of a subscription and the start of the next one (though Jetbrains offers you a further discount if you don't do so).

Re:Subscription Hell by slavik81 on Monday May 07, 2018 @12:58AM (#17010488)
> falling back to the perpetual license means downgrading, which is [...] something that I think many have an emotional aversion to.

They're playing on loss aversion and the endowment effect. It feels worse to lose something than to never have it, so people are more willing to pay to keep it than they would be to pay to buy it if they were never given it in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

Re:Subscription Hell by rolleiflex on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:03PM (#17008846)
That makes sense, thanks.

In the end, though, when I discovered this was how it worked at the end of my PyCharm subscription, it left me quite a bitter taste in my mouth, and I just stopped purchasing any JetBrains products. These kind of details are akin to trying to trick people via putting stuff into EULAs nobody reads, and for me at least, it gives the distinct feeling that they're trying very hard to screw me over, so I try to not frequent nor support those kinds of businesses, IMHO.

Re:Subscription Hell by kittiepryde on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:14PM (#17008912)
So, is what they are doing worse than what most subscription models do (lose complete access)?

I've been using them for awhile and I felt they were really up front about what they were doing, but I don't know if they've always been as transparent.

Re:Subscription Hell by sireat on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:49AM (#17011989)
Jetbrains actually wanted to cut off access completely at first.

Initially JetBrains didn't even want to offer rollback licenses when they went to subscription only model a few years ago.

There was a big uproar among programmer communities (including here on HN) and after few weeks of deliberation a compromise of sorts was reached.

Despite offering a nice product line, JetBrains did lose a bunch of goodwill including mine. But goodwill does not pay the bills.

Re:Subscription Hell by rolleiflex on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:12PM (#17009180)
It's definitely better than that. But it's still not good. This is all my personal opinion though, I already voted with my wallet by not buying their products any more.
Re:Subscription Hell by daveguy on Sunday May 06, 2018 @10:02PM (#17009885)
Would it have been better if you "purchase the current version and get temporary upgrades for a year for free." Essentially the same thing, but up front and not implying that you get more than you do.
Re:Subscription Hell by Illniyar on Monday May 07, 2018 @01:06AM (#17010520)
It'll be the same only if at the end of the year your version is rolledback.
Re:Subscription Hell by taneq on Sunday May 06, 2018 @09:10PM (#17009692)
I think this:

> The trick is that at the end of your yearly subscription you have already upgraded to a newer version, so falling back to the perpetual license means downgrading, which is both often a practical problem and (perhaps most importantly) something that I think many have an emotional aversion to.

Qualifies as

> a particularly hamfisted attempt to grab an almost negligible amount of money

OK, so maybe it's not as negligible an amount but it feels petty and I'd not pay money to a company that pulls stunts like that on its customers.

Re:Subscription Hell by ehnto on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:48PM (#17009343)
Why should it work that way? You get the updates based on the assumption you are a subscriber, and you get the fallback license based on the assumption that you made a one off purchase at the date of purchase. It's logical the way it works.
Re:Subscription Hell by shripadk on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:52PM (#17009361)
It doesn't for the simple reason that they provide updates for the entire year. Surely those updates aren't provided for free. They are provided for purchase you made in advance for a year. If I cancel midway I should be entitled for all the updates till the end of the period. Unless those updates were free and not part of the sale. In which case, the licensee should still get those updates anyways for the period. You look at it either way it still doesn't make any sense. Or, they should return the update fee they charged for the year during the sale on pro-rata basis.

Also, how would you account for it? You can't retrospectively change the nature of purchase from subscription to a one-off sale! That would be audit hell for their accountant.

Re:Subscription Hell by concerned_user on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:16AM (#17010910)
They sell you version at the time of purchase (fallback license) + access to updates, all accounted at the date of purchase. So when your subscription runs out in theory you could get old version then apply updates but you have no access so no updates for you.
Re:Subscription Hell by shripadk on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:18AM (#17011606)
> then apply updates but you have no access so no updates for you.

But that is denial of service that I legitimately paid for. Either they should provide the updates till end of subscription or refund the collected update fees pro-rata (viz. if I cancel after 9 months of purchase, 3 months of excess update fee collected should be refunded).

Re:Subscription Hell by andrei_says_ on Monday May 07, 2018 @12:37PM (#17014132)
My sense is you paid for the software as it is on the date of purchase.

With that you get a trial of all updates for a year. If you don’t like the trial you don’t pay and revert to the version you paid for.

Re:Subscription Hell by shripadk on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:04PM (#17016028)
Yes it's possible to think of it that way and it makes sense now! However, they should explicitly mention it in their license terms that the updates are provided on trial basis and valid for a year and those updates can be purchased as a version upgrade at the end of the year.
Re:Subscription Hell by wpietri on Sunday May 06, 2018 @08:40PM (#17009587)
It makes sense to me as removing the choice between, "Do I buy one-off license or a subscription?" If you get the subscription, you get a free one-off license at date of purchase.

Your way also makes sense, but they both seem reasonable to me. And I don't really care much, in that I renew when I'm regularly using their product, as I want to support them. If I just had to open an old project for something, then I don't mind exactly which old version I'm using. (And if I somehow did, I could just put it in 30-day trial mode.)

Re:Subscription Hell by takluyver on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:18AM (#17012134)
And at least the way I use it, there's no lock-in. If you stop subscribing, you can easily open your code in another editor.
Re:Subscription Hell by chiefalchemist on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:17PM (#17009201)
Slightly off topic, but semi related. My parents had a one year membership at Costco. The level where you get some percentage back. I think it was 2%.

Long to short, the "rebate" was paid ~60 days prior to the end of the 12 months. The remaining 60 days' purchased will only be rebated if they renew.

I presume this is in the small print somewhere. None the less, it's complete crap.

Re:Subscription Hell by nitrogen on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:59PM (#17009397)
Sounds similar to employers who pay contracted bonuses late, don't pay if you quit before the bonus date, and use bonuses to make up for reduced salaries.
Re:Subscription Hell by jackgolding on Monday May 07, 2018 @02:42AM (#17010779)
This is really annoying for me, how can I work for a full financial year (and get my shares allocated), receive my performance review but not get a bonus because I quit before October where they pay the bonuses on the last FY?
Re:Subscription Hell by technofiend on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:55AM (#17012022)
Hence the wave of resignations the week of bonus payouts. People play the game and wait to get paid, knowing if they prematurely signal their departure, the company will reallocate money to those who choose to stay. I'm not saying it's right but it happens.
Re:Subscription Hell by jackgolding on Wednesday May 09, 2018 @08:58PM (#17035670)
And then you only get half a bonus at your new role if you are lucky (my last job I joined 3 days too late to be eligible)
Re:Subscription Hell by vel0city on Monday May 07, 2018 @01:27PM (#17014594)
That's strange, as that was not my experience not long ago. I'm thinking there was some miscommunication about the rebate with your family.

I received my rebate after I had let my membership lapse without any issue. You can use the rebate even without an active membership. You can even walk up to the customer service counter and get your rebate amount in cash if you want. I ended up getting pizza and took the rest as cash back.

Re:Subscription Hell by masonic on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:06PM (#17017602)

  You can even walk up to the customer service counter and get your rebate amount in cash if you want.
Here, cashing out is the only way they redeem the vouchers unless it's a really high amount (4 figures+), in which case they cut you a company check (that happened to me once in 6+ years).
Re:Subscription Hell by chiefalchemist on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:33PM (#17016644)
Thanks. I'll report back to The 'Rents.
Re:Subscription Hell by vel0city on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @10:11AM (#17020983)
Actually, I might have been an edge case and not representative of their normal rules.

"The Reward is issued approximately 3 months prior to the member’s renewal date in a Renewal Statement and reflects rewards earned up until the issue date. A member must be an active, paid Executive Member when the Reward is earned and issued to receive the Reward. To receive a refund for the Executive upgrade fee the membership must be canceled or downgraded to a Gold Star or Business Membership and any 2% Reward issued or accrued will be forfeited. Any additional savings and services exclusively for Executive Members will be rescinded." https://www.costco.com/executive-rewards.html

Re:Subscription Hell by DrScump on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:15AM (#17011126)
It's not "complete crap" given that (a) it's in the paperwork they are given at signup time, and (b) if they are genuinely dissatisfied, they can downgrade back to basic membership and get refunded retroactively to the start of the membership year for the difference in cost of the higher membership.
Re:Subscription Hell by chiefalchemist on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:21AM (#17011346)
A year is a year. It's crap, and shows the brand lacks class and respect. Who would renew for a bunch of a-holes?
Re:Subscription Hell by psandersen on Sunday May 06, 2018 @09:20PM (#17009730)
Wait, so if I've paid the subscription fee for 2 years I get the one at the start of the subscription period?

Some lag from the latest version seems fair, e.g. 6 months before the latest major version is perpetual...

Re:Subscription Hell by jimmybot on Sunday May 06, 2018 @09:26PM (#17009757)
You're in luck. You get the version 12 months before the subscription ended, so the version released before the 1 year mark.
Re:Subscription Hell by shripadk on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:16PM (#17009195)
> One thing that always rubbed me wrong about this is that, logically speaking, if you buy a license for a year, the perpetual fallback license should be the version you had at the end of the license, not the one that was on the market at the beginning of it. It doesn't really make sense the way they do it, and it feels like a particularly hamfisted attempt to grab an almost negligible amount of money, so I'm puzzled.

You are absolutely right! That's exactly how it should work but it's surprising that they don't do it that way. I can give you an explanation from accounting perspective: When the sale happens, the accountant would record the sale in their Books of Account as "Unearned/Prepaid Revenue" (as a liability). It makes sense as you have taken money "in advance" for a sale but haven't delivered the updates yet and hence you cannot claim it as Income. Every time you put out an update, you can claim a portion of the "Unearned/Prepaid Revenue" as "Revenue" and push it from liability to "Retained earnings" account as Income. When the year expires (note that the year is for the user not the financial year) the accountant would claim the remaining Unearned/Prepaid Revenue as Revenue/Income.

I wonder how they manage their Books of Accounts if they have defined that the license falls back to the earlier version. What they are doing doesn't make sense from an accounting perspective as well!

Re:Subscription Hell by Kliment on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:09AM (#17010885)
I'm not an accountant but presumably you treat it the same as the fairly common purchase+service contract. You have a sale of a license (of the version at time of purchase) and the prepaid service contract that either converts to revenue over time, or, if non-refundable, converts to revenue immediately. The proportion between the two components is fairly arbitrary. There is no constraint on how they implement this from an accounting perspective - they can change to allowing the user to keep the latest version they upgraded to without serious consequence (you can just as easily sell "product version X with one year of updates" which is very common as well, and mark that as revenue right away).
Re:Subscription Hell by shripadk on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:38AM (#17011663)
> I'm not an accountant but presumably you treat it the same as the fairly common purchase+service contract

I'm not a certified accountant either but I took the course just to understand workings of my business.

> they can change to allowing the user to keep the latest version they upgraded to without serious consequence

It'll be in their best interests if they did.

> you can just as easily sell "product version X with one year of updates" which is very common as well, and mark that as revenue right away

You definitely can. But you end up overstating your revenue and in turn your profits. The downside to that is you end up paying high taxes (unless you can minimize your profit by showing a ton of expenses as well). If it was instead treated as Unearned Revenue (which is a liability), you would be stating your true income and showing lower profits and thereby paying lower taxes.

Take for instance the case where your customer purchases a multi-year subscription. This causes a higher cash flow (assets go up) but you won't be overstating your income (as liability goes up by classifying it as Unearned Revenue instead of owner's equity). The liability can be reduced by claiming it as revenue over a multi-year period. If it was marked as revenue at the time of sale, the owner's equity (retained earnings) would go up. That would mean showing higher income which results in higher profits and you end up paying high taxes.

Remember that with unearned revenue you can carry it over to multiple financial years and spread your income between them. You lose out on this important tax saving component if you mark as revenue right away. This also has the advantage of portraying a true picture of your business in your books of accounts.

Re:Subscription Hell by nobrains on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:16AM (#17010908)
I think the solution is delayed gratification

Don't upgrade until after renewing the subscription for next year.

Re:Subscription Hell by chii on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:34AM (#17011392)
so you miss out on the new features/bugfixes (which you presumably want, since you are paying already).
Re:Subscription Hell by BonesJustice on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:39PM (#17009301)
They also drop the subscription rate after the first and second years. And even at the outset, the “everything JetBrains” license is cheaper than any two individually licensed products. If you do, say, Java and C# or Python and C++, this makes it a pretty sweet deal.

I wasn’t aware that the perpetual fallback license only covered the latest version at the time of subscription/renewal. That’s less than ideal, but apart from that, I think they’ve pretty well nailed the subscription-based model. It’s actually the _only_ software I’ve used where I feel the subscription model terms were actually an improvement over what I had before.

Re:Subscription Hell by scaryclam on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:00AM (#17011749)
There are other software providers that charge annual subscription fees that will just stop support and upgrades when you decide to stop the subscription. They don't retard your licensed version down to a previous version. Some of them also allow you to buy a license for the current major version, with minor version updates for free, instead of going all in for a subscription. Heck, I spent 3 years getting free updates from one publisher. Having the choice of being able to buy outright or go on a subscription is, IMO, far better than subscription only models. I'm also pretty surprised that jetbrains took the decision to not only take away paid for updates, but not provide a rebate for people who don't want to continue with the subscription part way through. That just rubs me up the wrong way.
Re:Subscription Hell by mkirklions on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:17AM (#17012130)
JetBrains made me super salty at how expensive their package is.

I graduated from college and to see their lowest cost package was ~300 USD IIRC was infuriating.

I went full Netbeans for PHP. It does the job, the debugger works, and it doesnt cost me a yearly fee.

Re:Subscription Hell by sli on Wednesday May 09, 2018 @12:39PM (#17031294)
It's gone up since then to $500/yr. It takes you two years before you get the $300/yr price again. By then you've already spent nearly $900, with the third year making it $1200.

Android Studio is free.

Re:Subscription Hell by BonesJustice on Wednesday May 09, 2018 @03:01PM (#17032803)
I think you're looking at the pricing for Businesses and Organizations (the prices displayed by default). Those are floating licenses. Most individual developers would buy an individual license. Individual licenses for the All Products Pack start at $249 for the first year, $199 for the second year, and then $149 for the third year onward.

Individual licenses can be used for commercial purposes just like a business license. AFAICT, the only difference is that a business license can be used by any single developer within an organization at a time, while the individual license can only be used by the named licensee.

There's also a 25% discount for new/recent graduates, which eases the sticker shock a little bit for new graduates.

Re:Subscription Hell by aarmenaa on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:42PM (#17008735)
As I recall, the perpetual fallback thing was added to appease their customer base, who were enraged when IntelliJ announced that they were moving to a subscription model. The term "rent-seeking" was thrown around quite a bit then and seems appropriate now as well.
Re:Subscription Hell by bitL on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:37PM (#17009023)
They had a much more customer-friendly model before - you pay yearly updates and keep the last update. Now you keep the very first version only.
Re:Subscription Hell by chad_oliver on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:49PM (#17009079)
That's not entirely true. You can keep any version that you've paid one year worth of subscription for. That means that if you subscribe for three years then cancel your subscription, you'll always have access to the version that was released one year before you cancelled.
Re:Subscription Hell by bdhess on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:57PM (#17009114)
I think parent’s gripe is that if you end your subscription, you can’t keep any updates that come out during your last year, so you likely need to go backwards with your installed version.
Re:Subscription Hell by mianos on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:35AM (#17011195)
It is particularly annoying if they introduced a serious bug, ie datagrip not refreshing queries, in the version you got when you purchased it, the one after the trial that worked. Then, a year later you get downgraded to a version that is useless.
Re:Subscription Hell by brandonjm on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:55PM (#17009374)
I bought a copy of Office 2016 when it came out, it has now lasted me 2 years and I paid about the same as 2 years worth of Office 365. I intend to keep using it until it is no longer supported at all and I am sure I will have saved quite a bit of money for effectively the same product.
Re:Subscription Hell by around_here on Monday May 07, 2018 @12:26AM (#17010389)
I got Office 2003 and it works for all of the home based stuff that I do now. I paid $70 on a sale. If I had been doing 365 since then at $48/year, I'm looking at $720.
Re:Subscription Hell by hiram112 on Monday May 07, 2018 @12:45AM (#17010456)
I agree that office 2003 has enough features and is good enough for 99% of the things I use. In fact, starting with 2013, there are anti-features (integration with OneCloud, online docs) that I'd prefer were not included.

Unfortunately, Office 2010 already has issues opening files made with 2013, 2016, etc. Most of my PCs are on 2013 as I was able to grab several HUP licenses at the time. I seriously doubt 2013 will be 100% compatible in another year or two, and 2016 will be the minimum version one needs in a work environment where you're collaborating on docs made with newer versions.

I have no doubt that Microsoft has employees on the payroll who have no other function than creating annoying incompatibilities to encourage users onto the 365 treadmill.

Re:Subscription Hell by zentiggr on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:42AM (#17012243)
I haven't kept up with the doc format story - are the ODF formats published, so LibreOffice can at least try to work with them? Or has MS closed them up again in the new versions?
Re:Subscription Hell by hiram112 on Monday May 07, 2018 @10:54AM (#17013185)
I've been lucky enough to never have to actually develop ODF software for integration with Libre Office / MS Office, but from I've read, the specifications were half-heartedly published, and it is now basically a game where developers have to figure out all the exceptions to the interfaces that are within Office. Some work-around that might have worked yesterday might not work after an update of Office (which happens every few weeks).

Again, the cynical part of me assumes that MS employs full-time staff to ensure that Libre Office, Google Docs, and other apps that work with MS Office will never be even 95% compatible.

And from my experience, even simple spreadsheets and formatted Word docs don't display properly when opened in Google Docs or Libre Office, and large, complex business docs with macros and esoteric formatting don't have a chance.

There are a few developers in every place I've worked who use Libre Office because they're on Linux or refuse to pay for Office. And you can tell when they collaborate on a doc with MS Office users because it renders poorly when they send it back. It doesn't bother me, but I've seen how folks in management, marketing, etc. consider it unprofessional and assume the developer is just lazy or can't use Office well.

The one silver lining is that Linux users can use Office 365 online for less complex docs; it's not a full replacement for offline versions, but it's a better alternative than Libre for those of us who believe it better to be compatible with others even at the cost of a 365 subscription.

Re:Subscription Hell by DrScump on Monday May 07, 2018 @04:17AM (#17011131)
I got LibreOffice.
Re:Subscription Hell by pythonaut_16 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:36PM (#17008706)
You also get the perpetual fallback license if you pay month to month for a year, for whatever version you had 12 months ago.

E.g. I start paying month-to-month at 2016.2, after 12 months I have a license to 2016.2. But say after the first month, 2017.1 comes out. Then after 13 months I now have a license for 2017.1.

Re:Subscription Hell by stormbrew on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:55PM (#17008808)
Another, maybe less flattering, way of looking at this is that you're buying or rent-to-owning the current version and then getting demo copies of updates so long as you keep paying your lease.
Re:Subscription Hell by CM30 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @08:08PM (#17009434)
Isn't this basically what a lot of paid software with licenses used to do anyway? It's still how paid forum software and CMS plugins tend to work, with the rule being that anything released while your license is active you have access to forever and anything released after it expires you have to upgrade to get.

Why can't all subscriptions work like those old license schemes do?

Re:Subscription Hell by pvg on Sunday May 06, 2018 @11:14PM (#17010164)
It feels pointlessly complicated to me, the IDE version of picodollars. Their pricing is already a great value and I'd happily pay them a premium not to ever have to look at another weird 'perpetual fallback' Gantt chart.
Re:Subscription Hell by maxxxxx on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:00PM (#17008505)
Developer Express has that too with their .NET components. We have dropped the subscription but are still using a version that's 3 years old but good enough for us.
Re:Subscription Hell by hmahncke on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:56PM (#17009384)
This can become problematic when an OS update breaks the perpetual fallback license software. As a developer, you can tell the customer that they have to upgrade the software (for a fee) because they upgraded their OS, but customers aren't happy about this either.