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Re:Subscription Hell by always_good on Sunday May 06, 2018 @01:54PM (#17007394)
One-time payments for software amount to a pyramid scheme where you benefit from the money of future users. That's not without its downsides either, where your userbase grows indefinitely yet doesn't pay for its own support-email rent.

There's obviously a middle ground, like being able to at least use the version you paid for indefinitely but having to pay a smaller price to upgrade. But which direction a pricing structure goes also depends a lot on the niche and type of software.

Citing the worst examples of "subscription abuse" isn't really an argument either. Of course you can find examples on each end of a spectrum. But as far as most software pricing goes, if it's so bad, then people wouldn't pay.

Re:Subscription Hell by jakobegger on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:31PM (#17007982)
There's a flaw in your logic: You assume that everyone keeps using every app they bought forever. If that was the case, pay-once would be unsustainable.

However, that is not the case. Everyone stops using your app at some point. So you don't need to support users forever, you just need to support them for some finite amount of time. Some users might use your app for a few years, some use your app just for a few weeks. Some users will email you half a dozen times, but most will never email you. Your app price should be priced so you can afford to support the average user.

And another thing that people forget: When your user base is growing, the amount of word of mouth recommendation you get also grows, and you automatically start selling more licenses, so your revenue also grows.

Pay-once and subscription aren't really that different in practice. Pay-once even has an advantage: You get all the money up front. And that's awesome if you are planning to grow your company.

Re:Subscription Hell by taneq on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:01AM (#17012045)
> There's a flaw in your logic: You assume that everyone keeps using every app they bought forever. If that was the case, pay-once would be unsustainable.

There's also a flaw in this logic: It assumes that all apps require some kind of server provided by the developer in order to run.

Once upon a time, standalone software was standalone and could run in perpetuity without requiring anything more of the original developer. It's still entirely possible to write software like this, there's just a trend away from it due to the prevalence of always-on internet connections and the ease of keeping some of your application server-side as a form of copy protection.

Re:Subscription Hell by jakobegger on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:11PM (#17015545)
Until your standalone software answers customer support requests automatically, you‘re still going to have variable costs that grow with your user base.
Re:Subscription Hell by taneq on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @01:09AM (#17018943)
It's trivial to only supply customer support for a limited time after sale of the software, or to offer a separate support contract for customers who require support.
Re:Subscription Hell by jakobegger on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @03:05AM (#17019366)
“Hi, I lost my license key!”

“Thanks for contacting us! Our standard license includes support for 12 months after purchase. I’ve attached an offer for our extended support contract. I’m looking forward to your response!”

Re:Subscription Hell by always_good on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:53PM (#17008136)
It's not a flaw. That's just uncertainty and a gamble. Whether that's sustainable for a given piece of software varies per product. And that's kind of the point I'm making.

The extent at which some users subsidize the app for others is just one of the decisions you need to make when deciding on a pricing structure, not a rebuttal.

Re:Subscription Hell by AlexandrB on Monday May 07, 2018 @07:30AM (#17011881)
> One-time payments for software amount to a pyramid scheme where you benefit from the money of future users. That's not without its downsides either, where your userbase grows indefinitely yet doesn't pay for its own support-email rent.

This logic applies to literally any one-time purchase that includes a warranty, yet the consumer goods sector has managed it somehow. What's really happening is a deterioration of the idea of "owning[1]" software. I'm sure it's great for the publisher, but it's almost all downside for the user. I'm still using an email app that was acquired and shut down by Google in 2012 and it continues to work just fine. On PC I use WinRAR from 10 years ago with no issue. I can't imagine having to pay for all of these little apps on a subscription basis and then having to find alternatives when the creators get acquired/go bankrupt because the subscription is no longer supported.

Edit: To add to that, if the cost of the subscription is to provide me with superior support, will publishers selling me these subscriptions be removing the warranty disclaimer from their EULA? Probably not, right?

[1] Yes, you never "owned" it, but licensed a copy - but in practice it was similar to owning a physical good.

Re:Subscription Hell by vel0city on Monday May 07, 2018 @01:34PM (#17014659)
You're exposed to pretty serious security vulnerabilities if you're still using a 10-year-old version of WinRAR to unrar/unzip/uncompress files you get from the internet.
Re:Subscription Hell by bastawhiz on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:01PM (#17007439)
There's a difference between charging for updates and charging for continued use. What if Sublime Text started charging a monthly fee just to use it? There's no excuse.

> But as far as most software pricing goes, if it's so bad, then people wouldn't pay.

And yet people keep paying ransomware for access to their important files.

Re:Subscription Hell by thechao on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:56PM (#17008151)
If the sublime folk offered a “bug fix only” monthly subscription, I’d buy that. My grandfather went through a half day’s paycheck of tooling a month on his own dime. I figure bug fixes are the software equivalent of sharpening chisels, buying new bits, surfacing a mill, etc.
Re:Subscription Hell by mehrdadn on Sunday May 06, 2018 @09:37PM (#17009795)
> If the sublime folk offered a “bug fix only” monthly subscription, I’d buy that. My grandfather went through a half day’s paycheck of tooling a month on his own dime. I figure bug fixes are the software equivalent of sharpening chisels, buying new bits, surfacing a mill, etc.

Except bits don't rot?

Re:Subscription Hell by notSupplied on Sunday May 06, 2018 @11:18PM (#17010173)
New OS versions (especially from Apple) regularly create new bugs or completely break compatibility with old software. The cost of upkeep is not entirely predictable and easy to "price-in" to the upfront cost.
Re:Subscription Hell by mehrdadn on Monday May 07, 2018 @01:45AM (#17010631)
Can't speak for Apple I guess, but this isn't exactly the normal case on Windows.
Re:Subscription Hell by culturestate on Monday May 07, 2018 @03:55AM (#17011060)
Microsoft jumps through hoops for backwards compatibility, often to their own detriment. Apple - comparatively, not absolutely - almost ignores backwards compatibility...also often to their own detriment.
Re:Subscription Hell by heavenlyblue on Wednesday May 09, 2018 @07:41AM (#17029046)
They don't rot but they get rusty.
Re:Subscription Hell by xab9 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:09PM (#17007485)
Like Webstorm?

I do feel that I get value for my money and with the yearly fee I get all the updates (which are important in the ever changing world of web development), but sometimes it still feels like protection racket.

Re:Subscription Hell by sn0wfire on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:21PM (#17007552)
Jetbrains does not require subscriptions for continued use of any version. Purchasing a 12-month subscription (which is cheaper than their previous "perpetual license") gives you a perpetual license for the current version of software.

This is actually my favourite licensing technique I have come across for software.

https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

Re:Subscription Hell by Joeri on Sunday May 06, 2018 @04:27PM (#17008318)
There’s a difference though. Previously the version you ended up with was the one at the end of the year of updates. In the current model you have to reinstall the old version of the time of purchase, undoing the updates you got. It’s actually quite clever since you immediately notice what you’re missing by not paying.
Re:Subscription Hell by donarb on Sunday May 06, 2018 @08:00PM (#17009399)
You can actually keep your next current version by buying for a few months to extend to the next 12 month anniversary. See last timeline example on this page:

https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...

Re:Subscription Hell by Rapzid on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:02PM (#17009138)
I could have sworn they offer specials or something where you can get the current and next version.. can't recall, I end up upgrading each year to keep my discount going.
Re:Subscription Hell by Bishonen88 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:20PM (#17007543)
no, not like webstorm. Webstorm is pretty similar to sublime text. You pay a price for a perpetual license. After one year of use, you can decide whether you keep on using the 'old' version, or if you pay again to have the newest one with all the updates. I think the comment you were referring to was thinking about stuff like adobe, where if you don't pay, you don't get anything.
Re:Subscription Hell by xab9 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:29PM (#17007597)
Indeed, you're right. Don't Adobe give you some "cloud storage" thing though? Fortunately now that we're using Figma I don't have to deal with the hundred pound gorilla called Photoshop.
Re:Subscription Hell by siscia on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:42PM (#17007666)
Sorry but nobody is forcing you to use sublime.

If they started charging just for use they wouldn't need neither an excuse nor a justification.

I really don't see your point.

If you could explain further why you think sublime would need an excuse for charging a monthly fee I would really appreciate.

Re:Subscription Hell by coldtea on Sunday May 06, 2018 @04:56PM (#17008473)
>If they started charging just for use they wouldn't need neither an excuse nor a justification.

Actually they'd need both.

And companies are not so dumb as not to understand this. Any company that started charging or went into a subscription model, offered both excuses and justifications for doing so.

You might be think "it's a free country, it's their product, and they can do anything with it".

Which is true in a trivial way (they're allowed by the law to do anything they like in that area), but it's also wrong.

Wrong in that in practice they're not really free: to survive they are bound to the market and their customers responses.

So they're free only as much as they're OK with pissing their user base and potentially losing sales (or have most of them go for some other product, and kill their own user base -- e.g. Quark xPress vs Adobe Indesign, and tons of other similar examples).

Re:Subscription Hell by icebraining on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:57PM (#17008159)
Yeah, I don't see the reason besides "I don't like it" either.

If the problem is access to files, then they could just have a free converter tool to some standard format.

Re:Subscription Hell by 3pt14159 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:23PM (#17007572)
The middle ground doesn't work. See MS Windows update hell.

The way things should work is like this: Subscription for when you want to use the software and open format data files that you're always easily able to export and download.

If a company goes out of business or does something stupid then another one will pop up to handle your needs. This aligns incentives correctly while still allows a healthy dose of competition.

Re:Subscription Hell by open-source-ux on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:03PM (#17007806)
> The middle ground doesn't work

The "middle ground" has been the most common model for desktop app pricing for decades. You buy version X of a product. When the next major version is released you pay an upgrade price.

In fact, the "middle ground" has been the norm for the majority of software apps over the history of desktop computing. It's the SaaS subscription model for cloud-hosted software that is the new deviation. But that cloud-based subscription model is now leaking into desktop apps (like the Adobe suite).

Re:Subscription Hell by cookiecaper on Sunday May 06, 2018 @04:39PM (#17008390)
It was easier to price software like a physical good when the distribution method was identical to other physical goods. You'd go to the store and give them $50 to leave with a box that contained a disk. When you wanted vN+1, you'd repeat this process. It all made sense to the user. That model is collapsing as digital distribution takes over.

Also, Adobe's tools have always been among the most pirated software out there. People who needed to do occasional work wanted Photoshop but there was just no way they were going to drop $700 on it. Nowadays, Adobe just charges them an $11/mo fee. That makes it much easier and I know several instances where this newer model has resulted in real income for Adobe, from what would've otherwise been pirate installs.

People are much more willing to pay a small fee several times than a massive fee once. The subscription makes them feel like they have more control and they can cancel when they don't need the product anymore (not always true because some of Adobe's subscriptions have annual lock-ins). It reduces the friction from "figure out how to pay us more than your car payment" to "just send us the cost of a trip to Starbucks, it will only take a couple of minutes and you'll be merrily on your way".

This dramatically changes the incentives re: piracy. Instead of spending hours trying to find a cracked build from a site that won't pwn your PC so that you can save hundreds of dollars, you just pay a few bucks and speed through with a known-good version (plus a clean conscience).

It's almost a side benefit that subscriptions frequently represent additional lifetime value v. a "pay once" model.

Re:Subscription Hell by usrusr on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:25PM (#17007943)
> The "middle ground" has been the most common model for desktop app pricing for decades. You buy version X of a product. When the next major version is released you pay an upgrade price.

Mobile app stores killed that model, when they made continuous, perpetual updates the norm. At the time, everybody was too busy pointing out the implications of going from 50$ to 50ct when the even bigger change was a farewell to major version upgrade sales.

But there, after a few cycles of companies ruining themselves by hiring in the short-lived money surge of growing an app to saturation, parts of the industry seem to have found their way to quite reasonably priced subscriptions.

Re:Subscription Hell by coldtea on Sunday May 06, 2018 @04:58PM (#17008491)
>Mobile app stores killed that model, when they made continuous, perpetual updates the norm.

Continuous, perpetual updates are definitely NOT the norm in mobile apps.

Some get some bug-fixes and the occasional new feature, but any major update lands a version 2.0.

Far more (the "long tail") are just abandoned (like all those thousands of 32-bit apps being deprecated in the iOS store).

Re:Subscription Hell by gravity_123 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @05:50PM (#17008785)
Both apple and google don't support 'pay for upgrade' model. Its either subscription or pay once. Of course, you can roll out your own payment gateway(which apple has further issues with) or re upload the app under a new v2 name, but those are not very satisfactory solutions.
Re:Subscription Hell by scarface74 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:15PM (#17008920)
There is a way to provide upgrade pricing for iOS. It's an ugly hack though....

2015 - you sold v1 for $5.00

2017 - you start selling v2.

You sell v1 for $5.00 but in the description tell everyone not to buy it.

You sell v2 for $5.00 but direct people who have already bought v1 to buy the bundle of v1 and v2 that you price at $8. Anyone who has already bought v1 can buy the bundle for $3.

Re:Subscription Hell by chii on Monday May 07, 2018 @05:42AM (#17011422)
and now, you have v3. The bundling will grow exponentially!
Re:Subscription Hell by sokoloff on Monday May 07, 2018 @06:56AM (#17011735)
It’s quadratic, not exponential. For N versions, you have prices:

  N * (N + 1) / 2
It is likely that you could reduce to something approaching an upper bound of 2*N, as with version 8 out, you can drop support for a discounted upgrade from v2 to v4.
Re:Subscription Hell by chii on Monday May 07, 2018 @01:16PM (#17014498)
I stand corrected!
Re:Subscription Hell by coldtea on Sunday May 06, 2018 @08:46PM (#17009617)
>or re upload the app under a new v2 name, but those are not very satisfactory solutions.

Not very satisfactory, but very prevalent.

And, I'd say, given the low price of apps, it might be just right to not offer any special discount for an upgrade. You could always reward older users some other way.

Re:Subscription Hell by Sileni on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:18PM (#17007895)
An alternative is intentionally packaging releases into tiers (performance, stability, feature, etc) and sell them as such. Something closer to Windows XP service packs than individual updates. I'd expect small, necessary updates to continue to exist as they do.

A user can buy the base version, then a few months later when you create a release that allows processing widgets through the program twice as fast, they can update for a small fee. This would force the developer to create updates that would be easy to communicate the benefits of to the consumer.

It'd be a bit more difficult to figure out pricing for new users over time and which version they receive, but it would allow they old pricing model without forgoing the benefits of incremental development over time.

Re:Subscription Hell by ThrowawayR2 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @07:26PM (#17009244)
> An alternative is intentionally packaging releases into tiers (performance, stability, feature, etc) and sell them as such.

That could quickly devolve into supporting a large number of distinct versions of the software, which would be difficult and costly. Nobody wants to do that.

Not to mention that, if this versioned software is a platform (for example, WinXP and its service packs you mention), downstream vendors would also need to QA and support their software on all actively supported versions of said platform.

Re:Subscription Hell by bobwaycott on Sunday May 06, 2018 @09:55PM (#17009859)
So, basically, DLC.
Re:Subscription Hell by always_good on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:49PM (#17007710)
Actually, it works in software that many of us use every day. Once again, there's more nuance to making an argument than being able to point out a single absolute example. Why is this such popular rhetoric on HN? Especially in such a varied imprecise world of pricing structures?

I use various bits of successful software like Transmit and Alfred that let you update until the next major version in which you must pay again.

Re:Subscription Hell by 3pt14159 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:41PM (#17009036)
It "works" in the way that having insecure software on your computer "works" which is to say that it doesn't work, we just put up with computers where the non-technical don't know the mess they are in. Every major operating system (iOS, Android, Windows, QNX) or widely used software application (MS Office, any browser, any widely used app) issues emergency security patches.

The reality is that having everyone on the same version drastically simplifies not just security, but also interoperability. It isn't 1998 anymore. The default is internet connectivity and we should stop pretending our apps are secure when they are not.

Re:Subscription Hell by romwell on Tuesday May 08, 2018 @12:35PM (#17022264)
I don't need a secure MSpaint.

Now you do you, and I'll use Goldwave v4.0 for basic audio edits - exactly the same tool I used in 2000, one that works well and I never had to re-learn.

I despise tools that capriciously change in my hands. Extra "security" is not worth the productivity hit.

Again, Internet connectivity isn't my default. Dropbox can handle that, and that software gets all the updates. The tools I use to make stuff I put in Dropbox better all be offline and never changing unless I say so.

That applies to the office suite, DAW, graphics editor, etc. I haven't seen anything their online features could give except a cloud lock-in.

You may value extra security, often necessitated by the very virtue of the software being online. And I value the ability to use without having to think about whether the signal is strong and my card payments went through.

The reality is that the interests of the users are often not aligned with the interests of software vendors.

Re:Subscription Hell by paulryanrogers on Monday May 07, 2018 @12:17AM (#17010357)
There is a kind of perverse incentive not to work too hard to secure software when doing so removes a critical reason to buy the updates.

That being said I do think truly securing an application requires first having a secure platform. Otherwise users could indefinitely demand mitigations at the application layer until it contains most of its own OS.

Re:Subscription Hell by brandonjm on Sunday May 06, 2018 @08:07PM (#17009427)
> Of course you can find examples on each end of a spectrum.

A good example is the Adobe Creative Suite 6 Master Collection which was so expensive to buy in Australia that it was cheaper to fly to the US, buy a copy and fly back. Now, you can get a years subscription to Creative Cloud for 'All Apps' for about 1/5th of the price of what CS6 MC was in Australia. It is still expensive, and after 4 or 5 years you will have spent more but thats significantly longer than Office 365 which costs about 2/3rd the price per year of a copy of Office 2016 outright.

Re:Subscription Hell by prepend on Monday May 07, 2018 @08:17AM (#17012131)
Did you know that every physical good sold is a pyramid scheme using your definition?

In the US, companies have product liability to correct defects for the lifetime of the product, subject to routine limitations. [1]

So companies create business models to compensate for this limitation.

Companies figured this out with software decades ago, so it’s certainly possible (eg, Microsoft).

[1] https://injury.findlaw.com/product-liability/what-is-product...

Re:Subscription Hell by petre on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:57PM (#17008163)
Atlassian has such a pricing scheme. Pay x amount per year for the cloud version, x-x/10 for the self hosted license and half that amount yearly for updates and continued support. Of course you can still use the license without updates and support. The <10 user license is almost always $10 so that the entry bar is set low, other licenses are much more expensive (>100x) with price going down with numbers until you hit the datacenter versions which are priced differently. I think it's very flexible and covers just about every use case.
Re:Subscription Hell by deaddodo on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:50PM (#17007718)
Which is why most companies do a mixed model. Pay an amount for a version, get one year of updates (or that specific version + it's updates), then pay to upgrade (and/or reup your year of support).
Re:Subscription Hell by crunchlibrarian on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:36PM (#17007635)
This is possibly the worst use of the term "pyramid scheme" I have ever seen used in print, and that's really saying something with how often it's abused nowadays.
Re:Subscription Hell by always_good on Sunday May 06, 2018 @02:53PM (#17007729)
Yet you left your entire argument up to our imagination.

I explained why I find the description fitting. You could at least entertain us with why "future users pay for your upgrades" does not fit in the context of one-time-paid "perpetual license" software beyond disagreeing with the phrase I chose to name the predicament.

Re:Subscription Hell by makomk on Sunday May 06, 2018 @03:40PM (#17008046)
It seems to me that there's one very obvious difference: once software is created, creating more copies of it is almost free. The reason pyramid schemes collapse is that they require an exponentially increasing amount of new deposits to keep up with the payments owed to existing depositors, and that's just not how software publishing works. So long as there's a sufficient stream of customers buying, it doesn't cost much more to keep everyone up to date than it does just the new customers, and if there isn't then forcing repurchases won't necessarily fix that.
Re:Subscription Hell by scarface74 on Sunday May 06, 2018 @06:19PM (#17008939)
But with the way that App Store economics work, you can't easily charge for upgrades but both iOS and Android have new versions yearly with new features that users expect you to implement.
Re:Subscription Hell by pc86 on Monday May 07, 2018 @10:30AM (#17013010)
IMO except for highly priced products, paying once for software does not entitle you to support unless it's the user forum/SO type. John Doe giving a company $50 three years ago does not give him the right to email people at the company asking for tech support.

Many many companies still allow this, but I think if you want support you should be paying a support fee (e.g. monthly subscription).