Definitely not my experience (Toronto -> SF). My rent for a 2-bed apartment in SF is twice as much as my mortgage for a 3-bed detached in Toronto (both with similar commute times)

With that said, signing bonuses are definitely something that you don't ever get in Canada, raises and yearly bonuses are also categorically lower, and housing prices have been outpacing salary increases significantly.

However, there are definitely very good reasons to be in Canada instead of the US/Bay area. Healthcare, for one thing, isn't an opaque insurance clusterfuck. It's also much safer (both macroscopically, in terms of things like shootings, and microscopically, in terms of side effects of widespread homelessness).

Another thing to consider is that work visas are far easier to get in Canada, and the path to citizenship is also much less draconian.

This comes up in every thread about Canada, but it seems a lapse of logic to anthropomorphize a market like this. The market doesn't "will" anything, and people's willingness to offer/accept a salary is more a consequence of local conditions than a cause. Those conditions include the option of getting paid more if you're willing to leave the country, which some are. Presumably that affects the market for those who choose to remain, but it would be interesting to know by how much. It's not obvious.

Canadian companies complain about lack of talent about as much as their employees complain about lack of salary. Isn't it a sign of a market reaching its level when both sides complain about the price but nevertheless accept it?

Except that behind the Great Toronto tech market there are real people, making decisions. At the government, at the investment, and at the management level.

And by and large those people have made decisions which see engineering talent here as a resource that they have to push the cost down on even if it means losing domestic talent to the US.

Part of this is accomplished by importing talent from abroad or exporting the work abroad, or underpaying when they can get away with it. It's not a surprise that locally developed talent leaves after graduation, when the industry is actively recruiting from abroad.

And part of this is relying on the percentage of talent hat simply will not or cannot consider moving abroad (people like myself).

(I edited it to say "their employees" instead of "Canadian employees". Hopefully that will help.)

TFA is about Canadian employees leaving for the US for better wages, as the other commenter pointed out.

The question is, what would change the situation? Not some change of heart by companies to finally do the right thing, or come to their senses about what their self-interest really is. Those aren't real things. To change it would require some change in the fundamentals, such as if the government made it harder for people to leave.

This is a horrible false dichotomy. It takes time for companies to decide on and implement changes. Do you think that companies magically always make optimal decisions at all times? You claim that other people are anthropomorphizing companies, but that’s precisely what you’re doing here, on top of a healthy dose of failure to make the is-ought distinction.

I‘m also not sure why you are misinterpreting “good wages.” I’m not talking about “deserved wages” or anything like that. Again, read TFA.

Lastly, your suggestion that the Canadian government make it harder for people to leave is horrific, inhumane, and quite frankly the most regressive possible “solution” to this problem. I’m astounded that anyone would even suggest it.

For example, I didn't suggest that the government should do such a thing. It's a hideous idea, besides being an obvious legal and political impossibility. What I said was that if they did, it might affect the software salary market in Canada, in contrast to other things people commonly bring up, which seem oddly imaginary.

Laws, including constitutions, can be changed. This works for both sides of the border. Killing NAFTA is an easy start. Canada can have a wall to keep people in without even building it: simply lobby US politicians to have one built.

Conversely I don’t see where I’ve attributed to you anything you haven’t said.

To conclude by returning to something of substance, calling the market “oddly imaginary” and companies trying to make rational decisions as “not a real thing” is incredibly naive. You seem to think that the only thing that can affect the “fundamentals” of the situation is government intervention. I’m far from a libertarian, and even to me that does not at all resemble this situation. This is a simple case of companies in an area paying too low wages, employees leaving, and companies having to catch up.

You seem to be misinterpreting everyone else’s arguments as anthropomorphizing companies, which is not at all what people are doing when they are talking about a market. I think this derived from your fundamental understanding of how a market economy might work in the real world.

Companies and workers both take time to adjust to changing situations, and more importantly, situations can change, and the government shouldn’t always intervene to bring things back to the way they were. Otherwise we would still be a nation of farmers.

I’m not sure what else to say, and I seriously don’t want to sound mean or trite (like “just read a book!”), but I really think you should try and learn a little about economics. I think this is where your misunderstanding about anthropomorphization stems from. I tried to find a good introductory article, but I haven’t had much luck; here is one: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/labor-market.asp

They most likely to a large extent can't. It's just a different model both as comapnies and country. In general you can rarely win by being a lesser version of something else. Canada can, hopefully, do a lot of things the US can't. Those are the things it should do to attract people.

Name one prominent Canadian VC firm - I can't think of any, and I'm Canadian. But ask me about US firms, and I can name firms like Sequioa, a16z, and BVP. We don't have that here.

In Silicon Valley its a, 'Oh that sucks, but the smart money stayed away, that should have been a tell for the other investors".

Then the bubble burst and Nortel collapsed. A lot of institutional investors swore off tech after that, and it hasn't really rebounded.

Amazon Toronto starts new grads at like $80-100k last I heard. It's not as good as you can get in Silicon Valley, but rent in Toronto (while still high) is much lower than in the Valley.

I might be able to get better in the States, even after cost-of-living increases, but what quality of life gain would there be? Would it be worthwhile to have to deal with all the crazy shit with the education and healthcare systems and the politics down there?

So I'm sticking here in Canada. I just don't see the point in moving south.

I don't know, 325M other people seem to be living with it and are not leaving in droves.

So glad I made the decision to move from Toronto to Atlantic Canada this past year. I'm actually making more money in New Brunswick than I did in Toronto and can afford to own a 4 bedroom house instead of renting a 600 square foot condo.

I know that Regina->NB is dramatically different from Toronto->NB, but is there anything you wish you would have known??

One word of caution about real estate in the Fredericton area; don't buy any property too close to the river. There's usually flooding in the spring from the snow melt up stream and this year was especially bad. I was lucky enough not to be affected, but there's lots of homes taking flood damage right now.

I'm very glad you weren't affected by the flooding, and thanks for being kind, despite my gaffe!

It finally feels to me like things are on the cusp of getting interesting in Regina. Saskatoon's recent acquisitions (Solido bought by Mentor/Siemens, SkipTheDishes) seems to have raised a lot of eyebrows in Regina and there's at least some momentum building to get investors/business folks/tech folks together to start building things. Co-Labs in Saskatoon seems to have been a huge inspiration/wake-up call for parts of the Regina business community.

That being said... I've always had a bit of a longing for Atlantic Canada, and if the jobs are out there... that's pretty interesting!

The same situation exists across the US. For example I can get a mortgage on a nice place in the Midwest that is half my current rent in SV. That amounts to about $24k/year. However I'd have take a pay cut of about $40k gross (or more) for a job with identical responsibilities and to live in a region with far fewer opportunities. It's a net loss.

The "near downtown San Mateo" listing is a 5-minute bike ride from Caltrain, 600sq ft and US$1785. So about CAD$600 more than your rent.

A friend has a one bedroom in San Mateo in the sub $3000 range. The building is very old, no amenities or views to speak of, and not even in-suite laundry.

Canadians getting a raw deal by comparison. Cost of living in Toronto is not half of that of the Bay Area. Most like 2/3rds.

I'm not willing to lose a quarter of my household income because my wife cannot work.

I might move on a TN visa with the understanding that my employer converts to H1-B after 12 months.

Have an offer at a FAANG company that when converted to CAD is the same as what my wife and I make combined.

Unfortunately we'd still lose a big chunk of our household income till she can find work there. Fortunately she's American but still in a relatively niche field so might take some time.

I think the individual value of most social services is pretty low to people in this demographic (recent graduates taking software jobs in the US).

Sure, universal healthcare is great, but US companies also provide health insurance.

Protip: "treble damages" is not a thing California invented in order to pay legal fees

My wife was hit by a driver while cycling. She was taken to an in-network hospital as it happened to be the closest one. A 10 block ride on an ambulance yielded bill for a few thousand dollars. On the day of the event, the only out of pocket expense was <100 USD, but since then we've incurred several thousand dollars in expenses to treat the consequences of that event.

You're right that as somebody with an engineer's salary who's been diligent in making sure we had savings for unforeseen events, we've been able to pay all of the required fees as they came, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken into account when talking about compensation across different countries, or that being young and healthy precludes needing health care.

> "treble damages" is not a thing California invented in order to pay legal fees

I prefaced with "at least in California" because it's the place where I've had to find this out. I'm more familiar with systems in other countries.

All lawyers that we had to contact (which was already a shocking thing to do for me) had the same payment structure and explained it the same way: there would be a settlement, to be divided equally by HC provider, lawyer's fees and victim. I mentioned this because I can assure you that most people that don't know the American system would be surprised about it.

In the end, though, I don't consider health insurance to be a cost an in-demand professional would factory into a decision to move from Canada to the US.

Health insurance is much more expensive at 55 than at 25.

- I've met people that have had terminal cancer in their very early 30s (didn't leave a giant bill to their state as this happened in the UK)

- I've had a friend that needed an ambulance for his pregnant wife from an airport (>10K USD in out of pocket expenses)

- I've been stabbed in an attempted robbery (again, no expense as this was in Argentina)

- Young people with chronic illnesses exist

Also, $10K is a low figure for medical expenses compared to how much one can spend. End of life care for the elderly can easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. My grandfather has been in and out of the hospital a lot this year with a broken hip, complications thereof, and fairly advanced dementia, and his covered medical expenses have been astronomical. He gets full-time care every waking moment, 7 days a week -- so that's several full-time salaries on top of medical expenses. $10K doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of how much it can cost to treat someone.

As an aside, the 10K figure was just he ambulance ride. I'm supplying that as a lower bound for the cost on an accident, which people in other countries would not believe.

If I was a new-ish grad and wanted to stay in the PNW there's not a chance I'd pick Vancouver. Seattle has all the same electric cars, dog bakeries and yarn stores that you'll find in the lower mainland, and heading to Whistler for the weekend with more US greenbacks in your pocket would be a lot more fun...

When I turned 20 in 1997, Vancouver seemed like a personal version of heaven. Rents were more expensive than where I'm from, but that increase was easily offset by the ability to easily double my salary. Real estate was heavy, but not so heavy that it seemed unobtainable. Add in what I perceived to be real opportunity to work in an interesting field, a highly educated workforce and the natural beauty and I was completely sold.

Today, even if I were twenty again, I can't think of a single legitimate reason why I would choose Vancouver over Seattle.

I don't think CA has many technical equivalents to Ohama or Columbus that combine high salaries from numerous F500 companies with Midwestern COL.

MIDI, the immigration department of Quebec which has fully autonomy for selecting immigrants to Quebec fails to attract or retain the foreign talents. A highly skilled worker is not given any kind of priority in their immigration application.

On the other hand, if you only have a school diploma, but can speak fluent French, you get the top priority in Quebec immigration.

If you are highly skilled, but do not know a word of French, it will take a minimum of 4 years to immigrate to Quebec [2]. Montreal is just riding on their old inertia. There is a huge shortage of talent in Quebec. The policies of immigration dept. of Quebec and Quebec's language policies will drive Quebec down the drain. Some politicians have even announced that if they get elected, they will deport all the non French speaking immigrants out of Quebec.

So any startups looking to start their business in Quebec, you have been warned. Montreal is a great tourist city, no contest. But not so great to live or work for tech. If you immigrate to Quebec, your kids should go to French school only.[4]

[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pastagate-reve...

[2] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[3] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/caq-s-new-immigration-policy-lea...

[4] http://unbelavenir.gouv.qc.ca/en/whychoosequebec-foreducatio...

The Global Skills Strategy that the federal government here is running includes tech workers, and yes it includes Quebec. MIDI has facilitated processing for many of those. For kids of people here on temporary work permits, including that type, English schools are allowed.

For permanent immigration, MIDI currently gives more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world - regardless of language knowledge - than it does for a high school-educated applicant who is fluent in French. There are lots of factors that affect the score. While they do value French ability more than English, it's not as overwhelming as that suggests.

Their autonomy in selecting temporary workers (including tech workers) is not full, btw - there are many cases where a Labour Market Impact Assessment is not needed, and then Quebec doesn't have veto power on those workers. Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence - yes, even without French knowledge.

Last, KFC did rename themselves to PFK due to the language politics, but that was a business decision, not legally required. Subway, Banana Republic, Canadian Tire, and many other Anglo-named companies are still using their Anglo names as their brands here. It was similarly voluntary that Shopper's Drug Mart goes by Pharmaprix here.

As for taxes: it doesn't seem higher overall than NYC, a major US tech hub, and it includes a lot more for the money.

> more points for an applicant with a bachelor's degree in computer science from anywhere in the world

Quebec's immigration system is not point based as of now. Its FCFS. Though they say its points based, there is no indication from statistics that MIDI selects workers based on points. In fact, MIDI is a blackbox when it comes to revealing the strategy that they use to select workers while Federal Express Entry is fully transparent. Bachelor's degree holders in Comp. Sc are waiting for more than 5 years for a CSQ from Quebec, while they can immigrate to other provinces within months !

There are reports of systematic discrimination by MIDI regarding the selection of applicants based on their citizenship. As a US citizen, its no wonder you are given priority than applicants from third world countries. There are two class action suites against MIDI currently regarding systematic discrimination in selecting applicants. [2] [5] [7]

Ombudsman's Annual Report About MIDI says there are 31,378 applications pending as of March 31, 2017. [3]

> Quebec will still give them a leg up based on that experience if they later apply for permanent residence

That has been on hold with no explanation from MIDI since 2017. [4]

MIDI systematically discriminates applicants even in French priority category (PEQ) if they are from China or India [5]

A forum where applicants discuss about delays from MIDI [6]

[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

[2] https://imk.ca/en/rahim-and-rhia-basnet-v-midi/

[3] http://publications.virtualpaper.com/protecteur-du-citoyen/e...

[4] http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2018/02/27/des-travailleurs...

[5] http://chalkimmigration.com/2018/04/29/update-peq-group-judi...

[6] https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-boa...

[7] http://oreopoulos.faculty.economics.utoronto.ca/wp-content/u...

But again, many of these statements rely on inaccurate assumptions, overlook important nuances or past/present/near-future changes on each system, are not supported by the linked cites, or are otherwise inaccurate or leave the wrong impression.

I have no reason to doubt that you're discussing in good faith with good motives. But if you're learning conclusions like those in these comments from media pundits or social network posts, you may want to prefer primary sources, pay close attention to details when examining or discussing any source, and give targeted cites corresponding precisely to each point you want to support.

Have a good weekend, and see you here Sunday night or Monday if this post's conversation activity is still going.

I feel for my colleagues in Quebec whose applications are on hold in Quebec with no explanation from MIDI for the past one year. If you start asking cites for all these from official source which is MIDI, I can't give you because MIDI don't have it either.

If MIDI publishes those numbers, it will reveal their discriminatory practices. Don't bother about replying. Have a great weekend.

First, I actually agree with the other poster that the processing times for Quebec are too long and too slow. I didn't get any special priority as a US citizen, despite what he may have thought - it took me almost the same 32 months he found to get Quebec's approval and around the same 15 months for Canada's. This should get fixed.

However, the same was true for the federal system until 2015's switch to Express Entry. It was heavily slow and heavily backlogged. Quebec's similar switch is happening... this year. Quebec's block on most new regular skilled worker applications is to allow that. I say "most" since several types of applications are still allowed, especially from students and workers currently here temporarily.

Once that switch happens, I hope the Quebec and federal governments can work together to minimize processing time. The federal government will have to dedicate more resources if they want to reduce the 15 month part of the process - that's purely in their hands and not up to Quebec. They do the same admissibility checks much faster for federal Express Entry applicants.

Quebec's system generally lags behind the federal one. Right now, that's bad due to the slow processing times. It was however good during the time when Harper was restricting access to the older federal skilled worker system, since Quebec's was then more open. I think overall it's good to have these two different systems with different politicians making changes on different time scales, since it provides more ways into the country.

The main other important point: Quebec's system is only first-come-first-serve to decide whose applications to consider and when. The actual decision, once they've decided to consider you, is already points-based with the types of merit systems desired by the other poster. The Publications Quebec website has their legally binding regulations with the full points system, and the Immigration Quebec website has (in French) their internal administrative procedures guide which is far from a black box. Similarly, the federal government's Express Entry system is only used to decide who can apply when - a different system is used to make the actual decision on the merits, and their skilled worker program has a very similar points system to Quebec's (with different weightings).

The slowness of the current system, while it's very worth fixing, doesn't have quite the same impact as it does in the US because the options while waiting are better. Quebec graduates have the same access to post-graduate open work permits as other graduates in Canada, as do their spouses. As one pursues the permanent residence paperwork, there are ways to get work permits, temporary stay permits, and so forth without the same kind of crappy restrictions and lotteries that the US imposes on H-1B applicants and their families. The bureaucracy gets looser once you get Quebec's approval but is overall much more manageable.

* Processing delays as per MIDI's site for obtaining a CSQ:

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settl...

* MIDI currently follows FCFS to issue CSQ, not point based merit system, which they are planning to implement soon.

" With the introduction of the new immigration system based on the declaration of interest, only candidates that meet the needs of Québec will be invited to submit an application for a selection certificate. This new system will make it possible to put an end to the principle of first come first serve, currently in effect for processing applications, and to considerably reduced average processing times. "

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/informations/ne...

* Federal processing time delays(after obtaining a CSQ) for residency from Quebec: 15 months & counting.

Official Source: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/times/index.asp

( Select Economic Class > Skilled workers Quebec ,the processing times shows as 15 months.)

* For the year 2017, the processing time for applications for a selection certificate under the Regular Skilled Worker Program was 32 months.

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/informations/ne...

* To summarize, an immigration application thru Regular Skilled worker stream will take 15 + 32 months to complete if it goes without any glitches, but MIDI is plagued with operational issues such as loss of applicant documents, huge technical problems with Mon Projet and the recent refugee situation.

Official Source: https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/informations/ne...

Now if anyone applies in PEQ category, you will still be delayed by 15 months in Federal stage.

So which graduate or skilled worker worth their salt will try to immigrate or stay in Quebec after graduation ? They can easily get their permanent residency within months if they move to any other province other than Quebec through the Express Entry system and other provincial nomination programs.

Why do I say all this ? Because Quebec's immigration system is so obsolete that it doesn't give importance for merit. I was a victim of the broken H1B visa system and I immigrated to Canada thru Express Entry which gave importance to my skills. How I did it might be interesting too -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15452647

Montreal is great. I'm here, and if my kids don't go into IT they will work in another sector and will be able to afford to live.

I'd consider SV a death sentence. Who wants to work when you will never achieve financial independence because you'll never own your own land? And if you have a huge mortgage you are your boss's bitch forever.

For one:

http://observer.com/2018/03/silicon-valley-housing-market-dr...

Quebec's language is French and historically speaking it has every reason to attempt to protect it. Should immigration be more accommodating towards people willing to learn French? Probably. In my lifetime though I've mostly encountered anglophones who chose Quebec out of all provinces but then refused to speak the language, so shrug.

And yeah there are stupid politicians who say stupid things, just like in the States where some promise to throw out Mexicans and Muslims.

I've only ever lived in the GTA, though. It's my understanding that in many places away from major cities there can be a shortage of doctors.

Canadian living in US as well. The one thing I've noticed is the choice of healthcare in the US (for those with good insurance). Have cancer? Pick the best hospital you can find in the area. In Canada, you might live next to a world-class institute or it might just be a regular hospital. That's where you go.

But yes, healthcare in Canada is very good. The other thing I would call out is that experimental/cutting edge technology is often available in the US before Canada.

For anything other than that I've had effectively zero wait time and excellent care. There are even free health lines you can call for basic info.

The savings look like they will add up over time.

I'm not opposed to immigration at all. But prior to coming to Google Canada most of the people I worked with in Toronto were not holders of Canadian degrees. They were recent immigrants, permanent residents and not citizens and therefore themselves unable to go to the US. Many of these people were underpaid significantly, and a lot of them mistreated, in my opinion.

The homegrown talent from Waterloo, etc. had mostly left for the U.S.

Some come back after a few years, but many never do.

Add to that the dynamic of many American companies opening offices here as a 'nearshore' lower cost shop, where all the important and interesting decisions are made in the US and the Canadian shop's job is to just execute it.... crappy.

I agree about your main point though. It's time to put up (salaries in this case) or shut up.

Flat out wrong. FAANG will absolutely give you similar salaries in metro areas like Seattle, NYC, Austin. Where are you getting your data?

It isn't in London compared to the Bay Area, nor was it in Chicago when I lived there, based on people I knew at some of those companies. This is the first time I've heard that starting salaries are identical regardless of location. I'm happy to be proven wrong.