News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by athenot on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:09PM (#16777469)
When I read satellites & internet, latency is the first thing that came to mind.

But at the altitude the satellites (will) operate, that adds about 8ms delay (round trip for satellite immediately above, might be slightly worse). In contrast, the fastest round-trip to a geostationary sat is 233ms. That's a big improvement.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by erentz on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:38PM (#16777676)
It gets better. The speed of light in a fiber optic cable is about 2/3rds of C. The proposed system (from what I understand) essentially uses free space optics between the constellation of satellites as the backbone. Instead of regular satellite internet service which routes up to a satellite then down to a ground station then over a fiber optic backbone. SpaceX’s system will route traffic across the constellation of satellites then down directly to the remote end (or the closest egress point to whatever the remote end is if they aren’t on the network). This means although total distance travelled is longer, the speed it’s travelling at is 1/3rd faster. So overall this will become very interesting for latency sensitive long distance communications.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:59PM (#16777836)
> the speed it’s travelling at is 1/3rd faster

About 50% faster if the speed of light in fibre is 2c/3.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by oh_sigh on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:05PM (#16777888)
Just did some back of napkin math, and assuming you wanted to transmit information half way across the world with a fiber optic cable at sea level that goes exactly where you want it to, it would go 12566 miles (2pi4000/2) @ 124,666 miles per second (2/3)c, or take ~.1 seconds.

If you transmitted data straight up 700 miles, and then around the constellation all at 700 miles elevation, and then back down 700 miles, it would need to go 16165 miles (700*2 + 2pi4700/2) @ 187,000 miles per second (1c), or take 0.086 seconds.

This seems like pretty exciting stuff.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:14PM (#16777961)
You need to add more latency for every time a device is encountered in the total path. As long as the amplifiers are optical that's a non issue but the satellites and base stations will have to receive and rebroadcast and the fiber optic network will likely at some point end up terminated at some router and then there will still be a number of hops to the destination.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by kbenson on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:30PM (#16778062)
They aren't accounting for devices in the path for land nor space, so the question becomes are there more or less devices in the average path for each case, and by how much, and what's the average penalty occurred for each device in each case?
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:21PM (#16778365)
Undersea optic cables use optical amplifiers, which is a pretty neat trick and does not introduce latency, and so should not count as a hop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_amplifier

In the end it is probably mostly a matter of how many hops that will determine which is the faster path, the two paths are mostly equal in other respects, I suspect the latency incurred for each hop is roughly the same, assuming they use error correction and re-transmission on the link layers between the satellites.

If it all gets passed through blindly then it will be a bit quicker because there is no decoding step involved but I highly doubt that because it would lead to substantial inefficiencies and loss of capacity (the difference between a switched and hub). Smarter to be a bit slower and to maximize the routing capabilities of the satellites so as to optimize for the scarce resource: inter-satellite bandwidth.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by oh_sigh on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:32PM (#16778079)
You're correct, but I don't know enough about satellites to know their retransmit delay, nor enough about fiber optics generally. I figured it all may offset because you'll never get a fiber optic cable to go exactly where you want it to go, and you may end up a mixed medium route with something like copper->fiber->copper->air->fiber->copper route, or something like that.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by ricardobeat on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:58PM (#16778213)
Starlink is supposed to be direct-to-consumer, so no hops at the end points.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:10PM (#16778286)
Only when the endpoint nodes are both Starlink customers. Otherwise there will be a gateway at at least one endpoint and a number of hops after that.

I'm quite curious to see what their antenna setup looks like in practice that's going to be an engineering marvel.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by dreamcompiler on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:21PM (#16778890)
Indeed. These satellites move which means the antenna dishes have to do so as well. Or they'll use phased arrays, and phased arrays are not consumer-cheap (yet).
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by baobrien on Saturday April 07, 2018 @06:12PM (#16783309)
From what I've heard, the consumer end gear supposed to use phased arrays "about the size of a pizza box" and cost in the range of $100-$300.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by ricardobeat on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:12PM (#16778852)
Aren’t TV satellites something like 5000-30000km away? 200km sounds easy.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:27PM (#16778914)
Those are geostationary, these are not. So that's 'easy' as in 'a mere matter of engineering'. You will either have to track the satellite mechanically or by 'beam steering' aka phased arrays. Neither of those are trivial technology wise.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by abakker on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:03AM (#16779309)
any Idea how big one of these antennas needs to be? Could you mount it on a gimbal similar to a DJI is mom and just have it aim automatically where the signal is strongest?
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by k_lander on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:38PM (#16778459)
Is it feasible for the satellites to optically relay?
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:45PM (#16778484)
They could use laser based comms from one satellite to another:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_communication_in_space

But optical signal amplification is a trick that really only works when you are on a very long run where the signal gets attenuated to the point that you need to boost it. There is no routing option in such a system, it is essentially point-to-point with in-line amplifiers.

So even if they may use laser based comms I don't think optical amplification will be used, the more likely avenue is to decode the optical signal, decide where it has to go next and then fire off another burst.

Alternatively they may use radio waves instead of lasers, I'm not sure what system SpaceX will use for this particular system, given the accuracy required for laser based communications I would assume they will use radio.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:32PM (#16779088)
I've been reading some more about StarLink, apparently they did a test using lasers so probably that's what they will use for satellite-to-satellite communications, and radio to the ground because of atmospheric interference and sensitivity to rain and clouds.

https://www.cnet.com/news/spacex-starlink-satellite-broadban...

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by askvictor on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:26AM (#16780047)
Are you talking satellite-to-satellite relaying? Assuming they're all moving relative to each other, then probably not, unless the laser transmitter or receiver are moving as well. And moving parts wear down and require power, so you'd want to avoid them on a satellite if possible. However, if parts of the constellation are following each other in exactly the same orbital path, then those parts might be able to optically relay without moving parts.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jerich on Saturday April 07, 2018 @05:29PM (#16783096)
My first job in 1998 was working on the integration and test plans for Teledesic’s Optical Inter-Satellite Link Tracking (or OISLT, pronounced “oyselt”—probably the worst acronym I ever used). The design wasn’t done yet, but we were already planning integration tests to prove them out before anything was launched.

We were planning on tracking satellites in adjacent orbital planes (which were orbiting in the opposite direction) as well as in-plane. So, yeah, moving parts.

Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder what happened to all the work we did at Motorola in 98-99. There were several hundred engineers in Tempe generating thousands of pages of design documents for over a year. We archived all our work in spring 1999 sand were all shuffled off to other projects.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jacquesm on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:45AM (#16781226)
Yes. They already did some tests doing this.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by metaobject on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:48PM (#16779125)
Also, you need to have a cloud-free line-of-sight to the satellite.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by robocat on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:13PM (#16778300)
The path between satellites would zig-zag.

Presuming a flat surface of 200 X 200, and a random line across half of that, and presuming that satellites only communicate with nearest neighbours you can guesstimate that the extra distance is significant (ignoring other factors).

If they can communicate with more distant satellites then distance could decrease (short cut segments around great circle).

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by Robotbeat on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:27PM (#16778680)
The path taken by fiber optic cables is at least as bad, though. Even before you count the slower speed of light in glass.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by bpd1069 on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:37PM (#16778454)
The satellites will be meshed over 83 orbital planes starting around 1100km up. The satellites will connect to the farthest satellite it can see that makes the shortest path to the egress. So 2~3 hops verse a datacenter hops to the fiber ingress..then out the fiber across the atlantic.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by Cerium on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:13PM (#16777954)
I did the same math, got a similar result. I found that getting data from one side of the earth to the other should be about 17.4% faster in space.

Since the earth is 6,378 km in radius, adding another 1,150 km only makes the circumference about 18% longer.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by sgc on Friday April 06, 2018 @06:49PM (#16778172)
The latency comment for repeaters someone else made is important, but it also won't be going in a circle between satellites, but in straight lines through the circle (as far as geometry allows), which will help shave a few ms.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by azernik on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:11PM (#16778291)
I believe Iridium also uses its satellite-to-satellite crosslinks for backhaul.

In fact, the SpaceX proposal looks a lot like the Iridium concept in general, but with thousands of little satellites instead of dozens of larger ones (which probably makes the implementation very different).

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by lopmotr on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:26PM (#16778910)
A major difference is Iridium's 2.4kps which is nowhere near broadband, and no even dialup speed in the 90's.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by jessriedel on Friday April 06, 2018 @09:49PM (#16778973)
You are comparing Iridium decade-old service to SpaceX's future service. A better comparison would be to the "Iridium Next" satellites, which are currently being deployed, will be available before SpaceX's service, and will increase bandwidth by more than two orders of magnitude (512 kbps).

http://www.outfittersatellite.com/blog/iridium-next/whats-ir...

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by pooya13 on Saturday April 07, 2018 @11:21AM (#16781109)
I wonder if sites like google will launch their own orbital servers
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by kilroy123 on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:39PM (#16778465)
Was going to mention the same. Half of their new constellations is up now. Apparently, you can use the commercially available hotspot devices that are out now. I'm curious how fast and well it will work.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by azernik on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:57PM (#16778543)
Said constellation, by the way, being launched also by SpaceX ^_^
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by taf2 on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:08PM (#16778582)
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by tcheard on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:31PM (#16779084)
Unless it is an Iridium handset to Iridium handset call, it will always be routed to one of Iridium's ground stations:

- Arizona - Hawaii (Military only) - Russia

and then it is routed through the fibre backbone.

With the SpaceX proposal there will be more ground egress points, so it will be able to get closer to the destination before grounding.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by greglindahl on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:04PM (#16778573)
IridiumNEXT sats are 860kg.

SpaceX's 2 test satellites were 400 kg.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by metaobject on Friday April 06, 2018 @10:44PM (#16779117)
Besides being much newer (and lighter components are now available), the electronics for a Free Space Optical system are much lighter than the electronics for an RF system.

The concept 'Size, Weight, and Power' (SWaP) is commonly used when comparing FSO vs. RF systems. Incidentally, FSO systems have lower SWaP than RF systems. They're smaller and lighter payloads, and the system requires less poweR.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by kevin_thibedeau on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:54PM (#16778529)
It's Teledesic.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by azernik on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:00PM (#16778556)
Huh! Never heard of them before! (Which I guess is kind of the point.)

Hopefully the telecoms market has changed enough since then (cf Iridium's recent profitability, even while launching a whole new constellation) to make it suddenly viable.

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by Robotbeat on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:24PM (#16778661)
And SpaceX isn't trying to go for the mobile market. Fixed broadband only.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by dfox on Friday April 06, 2018 @08:58PM (#16778809)
That makes technical sense. Original Iridium uses weird modulation scheme (which is also used as security-by-obscurity) for the sole purpose of having simple ground terminals, while Inmarsat in it's current generation is "bounce UMTS off GEO satelite" which requires either stationary or surprisingly complex ground terminals.

SpaceX's network seems to work the other way around by being designed around fast-moving satellites and complex ground terminals that do the tracking and hand-overs by means of phase array antennas (ie. completely solid-state). In comparison to Inmarsat it is not GEO-bounce and in comparison to Iridium they seem to have some solution for having fully connected mesh of satellites (original Iridium is not fully connected sphere as there isn't even attempt to have link between satellites with oposite orbits)

Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by njarboe on Saturday April 07, 2018 @12:07AM (#16779322)
Antenna as big as a pizza box. I believe I heard mentions of using it on cars (Teslas?) and other moving vehicles, like boats.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by Robotbeat on Saturday April 07, 2018 @01:50AM (#16779558)
Mobile uses (including cars) are only speculation at this point. License is for fixed, and only references have been to fixed.
Re:FCC approves SpaceX plan for satellite broadband network by zamalek on Friday April 06, 2018 @05:49PM (#16777771)
Keep in mind that the diameter becomes larger (slowing down intercontinental comms), but I'm not sure if that's large enough to outweigh the 2/3c in fiber mentioned in a sibling comment.