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Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by superkuh on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:17PM (#16775060)
Freedom of the press only means freedom to use hand cranked printing presses. That is all the founders were thinking about. They did not anticipate high throughput roll to roll printing, radio, television, or the internet. Consequently freedom of the press does not apply to any of these things.

Only hand cranked printing press manufactured leaflets should be allowed. Freedom of the press should be banned for all other mediums.

... and in case you're wondering, yes, this is a metaphor for another on-going debate and an apt one.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by ufo on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:23PM (#16775127)
Sorry but I dont understand what analogy you are trying to make here
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by hluska on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:29PM (#16775204)
I'm not OP, but it seems to be an apt (and well written) analogy to the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution, which grants:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The 2nd amendment was written when muskets were state of the art and assaukt weapons like AR-15s were almost beyond belief.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by stale2002 on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:50PM (#16775462)
> The 2nd amendment was written when muskets were state of the art and assault weapons like AR-15s were almost beyond belief.

I am not sure why everyone believes this, because it is completely untrue.

During the time that the constitution was written, 30 round semi automatic assault rifles had existed for around ~100 years.

Yes they did. Really.

Check out the Kalthoff repeater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalthoff_repeater

It was an up to 30 round semi automatic assault rifle, invented in the 1600s.

Now, it wasn't used a whole lot, because it was fairly expensive and also wasn't mass produced (Although it WAS actually used in a couple conflicts, by specialized forces!). But to claim that such things were "almost beyond belief" is ridiculous.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by hluska on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:14PM (#16775782)
I hadn't heard about the Kalthoff repeater (thanks for the link), read more and also found out about the Cookson repeater, which was also released in the 17th century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cookson_repeater

I didn't know about those weapons and they're impressive (though very rare). But, there's still a huge leap between a Kalthoff/Cookson repeater and an AR-15. According to that weapon's manufacturer, an AR-15 has a 30 round magazine and can shoot 45 rounds a minute up to 1/3 of a mile!

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by stale2002 on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:22PM (#16775865)
IMO, the most important innovations around guns have mostly been because of changes in bullet technology.

The modern day bullets are the things that have caused the massive increase in accuracy, energy, and range.

And I guess, also decreasing prices, and reliability.

It is perhaps possible to make a reasoned argument around THAT, but the arguments around guns rarely reach the point beyond "ban the guns that look scary".

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by hluska on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:46PM (#16776143)
I don't think it has much to do with "looking scary", rather it has to do with raw power. Very few ardent gun activists would argue that citizens should have access to fully armed m-1 tanks or nuclear weapons because they're too powerful. There's an implicit understanding that certain kinds of arms are too powerful, so the right to bear them can be infringed.

I'd argue that the same kind of logic should apply to weapons like the AR-15. An accessible, reliable, fully dangerous weapon like the AR-15 is so far beyond the 'arms' of the 1790s that the right to bear it could be infringed.

A gun in the hands of a qualified, reasonable person is a legitimate means of self defence, but I can't think of why that should apply to something like an AR-15, which is built to kill as many people as quickly as possible. Qualified, reasonable people have many, better options to protect themselves from the threats they'd reasonably face that can't so easily be perverted by deranged fucks.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by ThrowawayR2 on Friday April 06, 2018 @03:35PM (#16776643)
> A gun in the hands of a qualified, reasonable person is a legitimate means of self defence, but I can't think of why that should apply to something like an AR-15, which is built to kill as many people as quickly as possible.

If AR-15 style weapons, which use .223 cartridges, were banned, that would still leave sporting rifles, which use the larger and more powerful .308 cartridge. That cartridge was the size used in the battle rifles of the WWI / WWII era that were standard before the evolution of the assault rifle. (Assault rifles have smaller cartridges because the range and power of the standard battle rifle cartridge was found to be unnecessary and the smaller cartridges allowed soldiers to carry a larger quantity.)

Given that, it's hard to see how an AR-15 ban is anything other than a cosmetic ban.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by superkuh on Friday April 06, 2018 @03:10PM (#16776400)
The round of an AR-15 is very much smaller and with much less power than those used for hunting medium or large game. In fact they're so much less powerful that it is generally considered unethical to hunt deer with them.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by friendlydude12 on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:24PM (#16775891)
Yeah it’s completely untrue. There were lots of very powerful weapons available in those days that rival today’s assault weaponry (even from medieval times) and the 2nd amendment makes no mention of that.

The 2nd amendment is a principle, not a law. It’s a universal, in time and space, foundation upon which we base our laws. The Founders were well aware of this and it actually was their intention.

These were highly educated enlightenment thinkers, to assume they didn’t foresee weapon innovation is just silly.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by s2g on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:06PM (#16775682)
> Within one or two seconds, it was ready to fire again.

That's not comparable.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by ufo on Friday April 06, 2018 @07:26PM (#16778397)
I'm not sure this OP's analogy is the most apt.

If I understand correctly, the legal controversy behind the 2nd amendment has more to do with the bit about "well regulated militias" than with gun technology.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by mamon on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:38PM (#16775314)
So, the logical conclusion would be that every citizen has the right to privately own state of the art nuclear missiles?
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by s2g on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:07PM (#16775699)
Yes, absolutely.

The internet gives the average person the ability to mass disseminate information. If you want to try and use that as a metaphor then we should be allowed to own weapons of mass destruction.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by microcolonel on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:46PM (#16775417)
> The 2nd amendment was written when muskets were state of the art and assault weapons like AR-15s were almost beyond belief.

Well, there is no definition for the term "assault weapon", and semi-automatic (edit: not semi-automatic, but self-cocking repeating, similar operation and results) weapons were well known (and not that far away from being popularized) by the time the second amendment was drafted, and by the people who were drafting it. "Arms" also encompassed things like cannons and explosive charges, which could be fitted freely to ships/properties and stored (though the latter could create a tort, if you don't take necessary precautions) by private persons, as proven in case law.

It also applied to bladed, blunt, or more unconventional arms. The word "arms" is used instead of "muskets" because the right being protected is the right of the people to own arms sufficient to feasibly defend themselves (or, with a militia, defend their community), and to do so unmolested.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by hluska on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:59PM (#16775581)
My research might be wrong here, but I thought the 2nd amendment was passed in 1791, whereas Mannlicher didn't design the first successful semi-automatic rifle until 1885.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by microcolonel on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:11PM (#16775743)
There was also the Kalthoff repeater[0], which is thought to have been used in two conflicts in the mid 1600s, and designed/manufactured around that time. These were demonstrated and documented at least a hundred years before the second amendment was drafted, along with copies and demonstrations of similar mechanisms. The only question might be whether they could be considered "semi-automatic". In that sense I guess they're about as automatic as double-action revolvers.

I think I'm wrong in calling them semi-automatic then, but there is little practical difference between DA revolvers and semi-automatic firearms, except that one has a chamber for each cartridge. The Kalthoff mechanism is a bit more confusing with these definitions, since it uses a single chamber, but has separate magazines for charge and bullet, but reloads, cocks, and fires through a single manual action. I should probably have said self-cocking repeaters.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalthoff_repeater

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by OscarCunningham on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:29PM (#16775203)
People sometimes argue that the second amendment doesn't or shouldn't apply to certain weapons, because the founders of the US didn't anticipate those weapons.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by friendlydude12 on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:13PM (#16775769)
And they are totally wrong because there were all sorts of machine guns and powerful cannons available in those days, even some used in the Revolutionary war.

Projectile weapons have been improving throughout history, it’s silly to assume the Founders weren’t well aware of that. I mean, there were medieval weapons that were pretty devastating by even today’s standards and the first amendment makes no mention of that. These were enlightenment thinkers well versed in the history of governments and technological progress.

The 2nd amendment is a principle meant to transcend all time and cultures. The people have a fundamental right to defend their rights.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by InitialLastName on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:59PM (#16775586)
I mean, we already know that the first amendment doesn't (and should not) apply to some forms of speech; slander, libel and incitement to violence are all things that we (as a society) have decided are forms of speech that should be regulated.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by friendlydude12 on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:15PM (#16775788)
The first amendment isn’t intended for physical speech. It exists to protect opinions and ideas. It’s for this reason lots of non-verbal “speech” is protected under the first amendment, like online posts and flag burning.

Threatening violence or slander has nothing to do with the first amendment.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by devdas on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:35PM (#16775281)
Guns in the US.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by friendlydude12 on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:05PM (#16775663)
The Founders had more foresight than you think. These were enlightenment thinkers who were well versed in the history of governments and technological progress. The Bill of Rights is a document of principles: principles exist to ensure stability regardless of culture or time period or technology. The spirit of the amendment is to allow the people to spread their own information, it doesn’t matter how they do it.

The first amendment says nothing about “fake” or “real” news even though there was plenty of fake news in those days. I could argue fake news started the French Revolution.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by joelrunyon on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:30PM (#16775955)
He's making an analogy.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by friendlydude12 on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:36PM (#16776019)
Wasn’t sure which direction he was going in but now I see. That’s incredible satire. Thumbs up.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by Varcht on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:20PM (#16775085)
Words don't influence people, people do!
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by s2g on Friday April 06, 2018 @02:05PM (#16775656)
> and in case you're wondering, yes, this is a metaphor for another on-going debate and an apt one.

You can use a printing press to inform thousands and thousands of people a day easily.

Get rid of the 2nd amendment!

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by plandis on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:36PM (#16775289)
First amendment: “Congress shall make _no_ law”

Second amendment: “A well regulated militia, being necessary [predicate] .... the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”

Your analogy kind of fails and also isn’t really related to the article, TBH.

Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by microcolonel on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:56PM (#16775538)
The Supreme Court disagrees with you. No predicate (or in this case, prefatory clause) could undermine or limit an operative clause that straightforward, at most it could be considered a motivation: i.e. the right of the people to keep and bear arms is intended to (at least, but not solely) give those people the ability to keep and bear arms sufficient to feasibly form an armed militia.
Re:Free speech cannot be sacrificed to strike fake news by andromeduck on Friday April 06, 2018 @01:53PM (#16775504)
Well if you listened to Heller vs DC, the court decided that it wasn't a predicate based on the interpretation of preceding and subsequent state law and other historical reasons.