News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by axaxs on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:06PM (#16553565)
I've always read that road damage was caused by heavy vehicles(semis) which stress fracture the roads, which in turn fill with water, freeze, expand, rinse and repeat. This article seems to imply it's caused by the road design itself, though. Wonder which is true (or both)?
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by CoffeeDregs on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:49PM (#16554406)
From the article: Conventional wisdom suggests that cracks begin deep in the roadbed and gradually migrate upward, eventually breaking out on the asphalt surface. Not so, claims Halim. The cracks have already been created by the rollers, regardless of the temperature and asphalt mixture used.

I would guess that the mechanism of action is that water gets through the cracks and erodes the underlayment.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by jaclaz on Saturday March 10, 2018 @08:07AM (#16558352)
>I've always read that road damage was caused by heavy vehicles(semis) which stress fracture the roads, which in turn fill with water, freeze, expand, rinse and repeat. This article seems to imply it's caused by the road design itself, though. Wonder which is true (or both)?

In my experience, both.

Set aside for one moment this new roller, the reality is that road paving is not exact science, and - even if it was - it is largely executed badly.

Paving (and before paving the underneath layers) are more like "cooking" than everything else.

It is not like you have the right recipe, good ingredients and follow "instructions" accurately you can replicate some dishes.

Usually (of course it greatly depends in local uses and materials available) the first mistake is under-calculating the thickness and consistence of the bottom layers (gravel, sand, quarried rubble, sometimes mixed with cement or lime).

The second one (again usually, not always) is inadequate protection from running water (be it coming from rain or from the soil).

Then it comes the exact composition of the asphalt, the (right or wrong) type and quantity of bitumen, the temperature at which it is mixed, transported and layered, the amount of compacting, etc., etc.

In the last 20 years or so some great betterings have come from the use of reinforcing layers, both in the underpavement (woven or non-woven geotextiles) and in the asphalt itself (geogrids, usually plastic).

Whilst geogrids in asphalt are rather costly (both as material and additional work to lay them), high strength geotextiles are relatively cheap and it is surprising how - still today - they are not widely and universally used.

Both however are only good for highways and roads outside the city, as the benefit of these textiles is to spread as much as possible any dynamic action provoked by heavy traffic and loads onto the widest possible surface, but in urban contexts the surface (and up to 1-1.5 m depth) is "ruined" by every kind of duct, pipe, cable and other services, often re-cut (over and over) for maintenance/repair/replacement.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by Maybestring on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:15PM (#16554613)
Roads are designed, manufactured, used, and maintained.

You can impact road surface wear by tweaking any of these variables. They all affected the surface, there is no single cause.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by lucas_membrane on Friday March 09, 2018 @11:41PM (#16557126)
In rainy and hilly places, doesn't water flow under the roads from the sides, making little caverns beneath the pavement that collapse? In hot climates, doesn't heating and cooling from the sun create the cracks. In cold climates, doesn't expansion of ice as it freezes create the cracks?

Back 35 or 40 years ago, Phillips petroleum was promoting a paving material that supposedly solved this problem. Where is it?

There may be single causes, we just need them all to marry single solutions.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by marcosdumay on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:11PM (#16554591)
Well built roads can stand heavier vehicles. If you either run too heavy vehicles, or build your roads badly, potholes will appear.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by throwawaylalala on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:21PM (#16553675)
We have potholes in Florida. No freezing.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by woliveirajr on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:30PM (#16553752)
Put water inside the hole, run over it with a car that will put some pressure on it, and it'll fill all those small cracks inside the asphalt. Repeat many times.

Also, asphalt isn't solid, it get thinner when the sun is high, deforming every time a car runs over it in the summer.

South of south America, more or less equivalent to Florida: no freezing during winter and not that hot during summer, but everytime there's many rainy days, holes will appear. Get few days of hot sun and the roads will deform a bit, specially where trucks and buses run over.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by tarmon on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:00PM (#16553988)
Just want to point out that it's asphalt, not asfalt. :)
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by MisterTea on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:16PM (#16555492)
No, it's ashfault. Though, I don't know what he did exactly.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by yousir on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:41PM (#16554323)
> South of south America, more or less equivalent to Florida

Are you calling North America "America", and then go on and call Florida "south America", as if there isn't such a place in the world as South America? I do not approve of this North America-centric view of the world at all.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by coldtea on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:04PM (#16554536)
>Are you calling North America "America", and then go on and call Florida "south America", as if there isn't such a place in the world as South America?

Depending on the geography class you took, and where, there might not be a "South America". Some countries just call the whole continent America:

Most North Americans are taught that there are 7 continents: Asia, Africa, North America, South America, Antarctica, Europe and Australia/Oceania. In some textbooks, North and South America are combined into "America" and/or Europe and Asia are combined into "Eurasia", for a grant total of 6 or even 5.

I do not approve of your 7-continent view of the World, as if it was the only one.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by balthasar on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:34PM (#16554761)
A Eurocentric viewpoint to combine South and North America. Its very obviously two continents from a geographical and cultural point of view.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by coldtea on Saturday March 10, 2018 @08:06AM (#16558348)
>Its very obviously two continents from a geographical and cultural point of view.

Culturally? Really? What's so different culturally between Colombia, Argentina, Paraguay, Chile, and say, Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala Costa Rica to warrant each set belonging to another continent?

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by yousir on Friday March 09, 2018 @04:31PM (#16555234)
As you are fully aware you are well within your rights to not approve. But if you call the whole continent America then surely its very southern part will not be Florida.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by coldtea on Saturday March 10, 2018 @08:07AM (#16558354)
The USA is also called America in short by most of the world. Not just the continent.

Sometimes languages use the same name for different things, and people can trivially disambiguate from context.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by khedoros1 on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:50PM (#16555730)
The way I read it, it would be better phrased as:

"In the southern part of South America, more or less equivalent to Florida", probably referring to the southeast side of that continent.

This map indicates that areas of Argentina's, Uruguay's, Paraguay's, and southern Brazil's climates would fit the description of "more or less equivalent to Florida": https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/World_K%...

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by woliveirajr on Sunday March 11, 2018 @07:10AM (#16562557)
Thanks, that's exactly that.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by mc32 on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:48PM (#16554398)
Southern would work better than south. Proper place names which have cardinal pints in their names typically will use South and not Southern. So we have South Africa, South Australia, South Dakota. But southern California, southern South Dakota, etc.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by teh_klev on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:13PM (#16556209)
The parent post by thowawaylalala already mentions Florida, so I think what woliveirajr means by "south of South America, more or less equivalent to Florda" is at a latitude in South America with the equivalent climate as Florida, rather than suggesting that Florida is geographically "south America".
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by woliveirajr on Sunday March 11, 2018 @07:13AM (#16562565)
Exactly that. Considering we were talking about snow and ice causing cracks, I was thinking about the weather, not about culture, race, ethnic aspects, politics, government, food, or any other aspect...
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by maxerickson on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:19PM (#16555516)
They are referring to the region around Argentina.

The southern part of South America, a similar distance from the equator as Florida.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by mitchty on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:58PM (#16554479)
America refers to The United States of America. Same as we don't refer to Mexico all the time as Estados Unidos Mexicanos.

I don't approve of getting upset over turns of phrase online. Principle of charity.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by yousir on Friday March 09, 2018 @04:40PM (#16555286)
>America refers to The United States of America.

Well, that might be true for people living in the US but, and I might be going out on a limb here, it might not be so true for others.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by mitchty on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:15PM (#16555489)
> Well, that might be true for people living in the US but, and I might be going out on a limb here, it might not be so true for others.

And for a comment referencing Florida, is it charitable to apply something for continents to your stated interpretation? Principle of charity says not.

Specifically who refers to America/Americans in English as meaning "People who live on the continents in North and South America"? Lets hear names not an allusion to "others".

I'm only aware of a rather vocal minority of South American students recently getting angry at the term America being attributed to citizens of the USA. But its really no different from my aforementioned Mexico example in Spanish. Their category error is trying to redefine America from its shorteneed form for USA, to some super continent association of "America". But it goes against a lot of existing usage in not only English, but other languages. [1]

I respect that you have a position here, but frankly its a silly way to try to redefine the word America as its been spoken in English for a long time to refer to a super continent of both North and South America.

Example Portuguese, America refers to the USA, and to both Continents, aka like in English have to figure out the context: http://www.wordreference.com/enpt/america

French, pretty much the same, only the continent is generally called out separately as continent américain: http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/america

German, closer to French/English here but separate in that they tend to refer to the "americas" as north middle and south america, which is in many ways more appropo: https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/america

Japanese, i'm not as qualified with my 3 months of learning japanese to comment on this but given the Kanji in use they're already separated: https://jisho.org/search/america

Etc...

Also are you saying that all of the societies and engineering societies such as The American Society of Engineers should be required to change their name as they don't allow people from Canada, Central America, and South America to join? At a certain point I just can't find this position on the word America to make sense. Its just a weird thing to die by the sword on.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by pbhjpbhj on Saturday March 10, 2018 @08:51AM (#16558458)
I refer to USA as that and its people as USAmerican or USian variously. America is a continent and whilst a good deal of North America is USA plenty isn't.

USA is a terrible name, it could equally apply to any country, Canada say, in the American continent formed from multiple states.

It is wrong to call societies only for USAmericans "The American ...". The whole thing supports the idea that the only Americans worth bothering with are USian, it's extremely pompous and self-agrandising.

You should get a proper name.

Perhaps if things work out in Korea they'll call themselves the United States of Asia ...

Re Mexico, there's no continent called Mexico, no ambiguity or appearance of narcissism attaches to not using the full title. It's not at all equivalent.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by mitchty on Sunday March 11, 2018 @11:41AM (#16563366)
> I refer to USA as that and its people as USAmerican or USian variously. America is a continent and whilst a good deal of North America is USA plenty isn't.

America is not a continent, its two continental plates roughly separted at Panama via the Carribbean plate. Can you point me to a recording of someone using this terminology in real life? USAamerican is pronounced as ooh sa American or what? I can't see this catching on. Or oooh ess ian either. I doubt the Canadians want to get lumped in as Americans even under this nouveau definition.

> USA is a terrible name, it could equally apply to any country, Canada say, in the American continent formed from multiple states.

But it isn't that at all, which segues into:

> Re Mexico, there's no continent called Mexico, no ambiguity or appearance of narcissism attaches to not using the full title. It's not at all equivalent.

I was using that as a parallel in that we don't call mexico by its republic name.

Words can have multiple disparate meanings, America tends to have indicated a shortening of The United States of America. Do you believe citizens of this country can't name themselves?

You also conveniently omitted what english speaking region you are from so I can't follow up on how wide spread your version of things is/n't.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by pbhjpbhj on Monday March 12, 2018 @05:54PM (#16572033)
Someone else using the terminology, perhaps the first line of the Wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas), or Collins (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/america)?

"USAmerican" - like U.S.A but with American replacing the A. Variations expected.

>America tends to have indicated a shortening of The United States of America //

To people who assume that it's the only place in America that anyone would talk about.

>Do you believe citizens of this country can't name themselves? //

How many current citizens chose that name; I'll go with none. If you asked the question "what should we name our union of states, one of several unions of states in America" I'd hope most intelligent people would think something other than USA was best.

I'm from the UK (which has a lot of stupid naming too, but that doesn't make USA a sensible name, bad naming elsewhere doesn't make this naming better). But for the purposes of this conversation that probably just counts as "not America" by which will be meant "not USA". /s

/rant

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by yousir on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:31PM (#16555609)
Time to diffuse this.

> I respect that you have a position here

Thank you. I appreciate you saying so.

> but frankly its a silly way

Yes, I was being silly. But only because if you bundle South America and North America and then go on to call the south of that super-continent "Florida", well, a globalist such as myself has to object.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by mitchty on Sunday March 11, 2018 @11:41AM (#16563368)
> Yes, I was being silly. But only because if you bundle South America and North America and then go on to call the south of that super-continent "Florida", well, a globalist such as myself has to object.

Fair enough, but it read more as being willfully obtuse if anything.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by teh_klev on Friday March 09, 2018 @07:14PM (#16556219)
diffuse => defuse?
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by madhadron on Saturday March 10, 2018 @12:11AM (#16557198)
This is why I always use US or USA, the citizens of which are properly referred to as gringos.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by MisterTea on Friday March 09, 2018 @05:18PM (#16555515)
Look, Florida has this... reputation, okay. So what, maybe the GP was trying to wish it away like the rest of us. Let us have this one okay?
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by cmontella on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:25PM (#16553711)
But we don't really have potholes in CA, at least not the quantity and quality that I experienced living in PA. It's a minefield there right now, so I would imagine freezing is part of the problem, or at least exacerbates it.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by mgberlin on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:29PM (#16553741)
I live in Santa Cruz CA and and deal with terribly potholed roads. The air temperature here rarely gets below freezing, and I've never seen any ice on the roads to indicate that the ground temperature has been below freezing. Clearly something besides the freeze/thaw cycle is causing potholes.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by tigershark on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:39PM (#16553824)
What? I never seen worse road in my life than in LA..
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by wlll on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:49PM (#16553897)
Is that because in LA you have time to scrutinise in depth a great deal of tarmac? ;)
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by haldean on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:58PM (#16554978)
You must have never taken a bike down Market Street :)
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by denimnerd on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:28PM (#16553731)
rain will do the same thing though.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by megaman22 on Friday March 09, 2018 @02:35PM (#16554281)
Usually it's badly designed road bed underneath. Many roads don't have a proper foundation underneath, so unless that is fixed, just repaving them is a stopgap measure, and it just starts cracking and subsiding in the same places it was bad before.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by jack9 on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:33PM (#16553771)
Mere existence can't be eradicated. There are multiple issues. The existence of them (forgone), the frequency of their appearance and growth lifecycle. Changing any of those things, affects the maintenance problems.
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by cbhl on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:50PM (#16553905)
[edit: removed]
Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by imglorp on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:54PM (#16553941)
PA is notoriously bad at coordinating tearing up with other work.

It seems that 1ms after a clean paved road is down, someone in another dept is plotting to tear it up to get at their utility, then hire 2 guys with a shovel to do a very halfassed patch job afterwards, which either is heaved up high or sunk down low. The halfassed patch will become a pothole for the next 10 years of repatching it badly over and over again.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by hnrodey on Friday March 09, 2018 @01:55PM (#16553958)
PA = Pennsylvania?

There are two seasons in Pennsylvania, winter and construction.

Re:A transportation engineer has a simple solution to pothol... by drabiega on Friday March 09, 2018 @03:00PM (#16554501)
I have often joked that we should change our state bird to the road cone.