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Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by montrose on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:12AM (#16528592)
I had been optimistic about Krakow becoming a big tech hub, but the Polish government's shift toward authoritarianism makes that less likely.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by cmdkeen on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:28AM (#16528673)
Having visited recently and met with several tech companies and western firms utilising it I'd say it is already a tech hub, and has a bright future. The sheer number of graduates being produced, and the proven ability to scale up operations there makes it really attractive.

It is also a lovely city to visit, which is always worth bearing in mind when it comes to where companies might open a satellite office...

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by thraway180306 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:08AM (#16529252)
The sheer number of graduates being produced

At the diploma mills that are Polish universities. Google was unable to scale up in Poland for a decade. They opted for creating marketing & accounting offices in several Polish workforce hubs, while the man who organized Krakow tech office has resigned in frustration over mainship's final shelving of any plans for expansion in that space. Likewise the Warsaw tech office is mainly for the few smart people who don't want to leave for family reasons.

Students from the very few quality CS programmes emigrate in droves. Polish ministry keeps record of graduates entering national workforce and from the good programmes as much as 80% are missing.

Outside these, quality quickly falls off a cliff, even from the same school (Krakow local AGH has no less than 5 departments offering CS degrees).

Just last month a typical scandal in academic circles emerged where former president (rektor) of AGH advised a PhD thesis in CS that was plagiarized from another that itself turned out to be fishy. Moreover the reviewers from the more prestigious Jagiellonian University plagiarized verbatim their own reviews (and they were reviewers of both somehow). Things happen, but the main scandal was the body overseeing higher ed in Poland refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing. They've set up schools there to be diploma mills in the first place.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by dannylandau on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @03:18PM (#16531742)
I've had pretty amazing experience working with polish developers and designers. Definitely very top notch. Found them through Github mostly. Romanians, Belarussian and Bulgarians also turned out to be smart and hard working.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by thraway180306 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @05:18PM (#16532608)
They are amazing and one of, no, in fact the best in the world, both Poles and Russians. But that's a selection bias. Don't expect to drop there and find streets overflowing with such people eager to work for you in the actual Poland and Russia. The best already found their cozy spots and are not trading them for your offer whatever it might be (and let's face it: you're not going there after the talent but a cheaper talent), given their fears and insecurity (and exploitation) of the local labour market. Or otherwise, found their way out of the country or are actively looking (will I get promoted to your UK HQ in a year or two?).
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by kozikow on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @03:08PM (#16531635)
> Google was unable to scale up in Poland for a decade.

AFAIK, the problem with Krakow was not with lack of good programmers, but organizational setup - too many PAs in too small office.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by thraway180306 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @05:31PM (#16532701)
Offices are not an issue in Krakow, there is oversupply and the space is cheap. What I heard there is a lot of sour grapes and back-and-forth blame (still) going on about that Krakow failure. But what is clear for a bystander: the office stayed at the same headcount since being opened. They changed buildings and were mulling over expansion for many years. Some Warsaw people were generously compensated to move Krakow, then the other way, then the manager jumped ship prompting a wave, and then management gave up on Krakow entirely. And Warsaw doesn't grow either. Facebook too explored growing a tech branch in Warsaw and backed up. Samsung decided to make a sweatshop approach, they are big, pay peanuts even for Poland and have a lot of churn. There is a large, established for decades and recently quickly growing Intel office in Gdansk, that's where all the buggy drivers allegedly come from.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by kozikow on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:29PM (#16534055)
My previous post might have been confusing - it was a problem with too many PAs relative to number of people, not with the office space size.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by yazr on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:35AM (#16528717)
Are the devs/QA english speaking or just the managers ?!
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by HighlandSpring on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:48AM (#16528797)
Every recent Polish graduate will speak decent English, they'll speak it especially well if they studied something technical where the bulk of the material being published is being done in English (CS/software engineering).
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by jeffreyrogers on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:22AM (#16529349)
The Polish people I've worked with (in the US, but recently moved from Poland) speak passable English. Their grammar hasn't been very good, but they are able to understand everything as far as I could tell. Definitely not as fluent as Germans or Scandinavians though.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by zootam on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:39AM (#16528745)
english is typically taught in primary school to everyone
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by marak830 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:46AM (#16529122)
While I don't want to disagree with you about that locale, it's also taught here in Japan, and the English level is abhorebt. (Source: part time English teacher in Japan in my free time, taught every level from kindergarten to senior highschool).

My point being, teaching from an early age, while is an advantage, does not necessarily mean a good comprehension or ability to speak.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by Tharkun on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @11:55AM (#16530039)
I had a chat with a bunch of Japanese university students last month. They told me the same thing. They told me their English classes weren't too bad when it came to grammar, but they hardly ever practiced speaking the language. I can't even imagine learning a language without speaking it!

Edit: sausage fingers

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by odiroot on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @12:15PM (#16530196)
From my own experience working in Poland (albeit in Warsaw) engineers usually communicate better in English than their managers.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by expertentipp on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:02AM (#16534974)
No we not speaking English. /s
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by m_fayer on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:49AM (#16529522)
I agree about it being a lovely city to visit. But as someone in the startup scene in Berlin, I think many here would be hesitant to open a satellite office there, simply to avoid inviting cultural conflict between the typical Berlin startup's lefty and cosmopolitan workforce and increasingly culturally conservative Polish attitudes.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by expertentipp on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @03:12AM (#16535014)
Would you prefer your dolce grande latte with brown sugar or aspartame, Sir? Look, some eastern Europeans are stealing your fixed-gear bicycle!
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by m_fayer on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @05:49AM (#16535583)
Make fun of hipsters all you like, heck it's not hard. But that won't change the fact that hipsters, a cultural group like any other, control a big chunk of the tech world, especially in Berlin. Meaning that you flippantly ignore their cultural preferences at your own peril.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by expertentipp on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:05AM (#16535632)
I have no idea who the hipsters are. An Anglosphere subculture?
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by m_fayer on Wednesday March 07, 2018 @06:14AM (#16535661)
Nothing Anglosphere about hipsterism. Plenty of that from Southern Europe and East Asia. A typical member is youngish (born early 1980 and forward), secular, educated in tech, media, the arts, sometimes (social) science, left-leaning, with an urban and transnational worldview. I think honestly it's more of a social and economic class than a subculture. It's a new word for "intelligentsia".
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by LaGrange on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:18AM (#16528624)
Also the air quality is rather terrible.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by bluecalm on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:44AM (#16529490)
It's a sad state of affairs in major Polish cities. Out of the 4 major tech hubs: Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw, 3-city (Gdansk/Sopot/Gdynia which form one long city) air is terrible in all with the exception of 3-city. Even there it's not so rosy (depends on the area, some are very clean, some not so much but air pollution stations are too sparse to show it). I moved out because of it and I wouldn't advise anyone to live in Poland (outside 3-city) if they have other options. It's not worth it to risk your health.

The situation is terrible for many reasons but major 2 are ancient coal/junk heating (people won't upgrade to eco-friendly heating because most of them are dirty poor and their main problem is to find a cheaper coal substitute for next winter) and Germans flooding us with used diesel cars with particulate filters long not working (or removed). There is a lot of talk about CO2 but this is long term danger while used diesel cars are poisoning us right now at massive scale.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by lafar6502 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @06:31PM (#16533099)
How the Germans flood you with these diesels? Do they drop their used car right across the border or is it organized at state level? And why they take out particle filters before that?
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by gambiting on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:35AM (#16528718)
It is literally the worst in Europe at the moment. It's a huge issue over there.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by kss238 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:35AM (#16528715)
In Krakow? Has it changed a lot in the past years? I was there in 2014 and the air was great.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by Guest9812398 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:51AM (#16528815)
I spent some time in Krakow and it has horrible air quality. Summer feels normal like any other city, but certain times during the winter it's difficult to see due to the smog. See the below video for reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7nxugvTmJo

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by navaati on Thursday March 08, 2018 @06:07AM (#16543644)
Wow darn I'm never throwing the stone at China again, seeing this in Europe, so close to home !
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by kornakiewicz on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:40AM (#16528751)
Were you in summer? The problem with air pollution is rather seasonal and while in warmer months it's not an issue, winters are terrible.

Source: I lived in Kraków for 4 years.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by kss238 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:16AM (#16528968)
Yeah I was, so that was probably it.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by eafkuor on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:43AM (#16528768)
It's so bad that Dynatrace, who is hiring in Gdańsk (another Polish city), is trying to convince devs from Kraków to move there with this: http://zmiensrodowisko.pl/
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by FranOntanaya on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:48AM (#16529135)
In the whole area. Where I spent time people still use coal heating and you had garbage pick up once a week (and you had to tip), so even tho burning garbage in the stove is illegal you surely knew when a neighbor was doing it. Part of my coming back home culture shock was not seeing cars covered in sooth.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by krzat on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @02:25PM (#16531276)
Smarter neighbors segregate their garbage. For burning during the day, and for burning during the night.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by fatfox on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:21AM (#16528642)
Agreed. Krakow, Poznan, many cities in Poland are full of talented young people and they produce great stuff. But the current line of the Polish government will make it a less than ideal place for investment.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by oyvey on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:57AM (#16528852)
I prefer to make less money than to live in a multicutural paradise like in the west.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by kozikow on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @03:19PM (#16531758)
Our startup is split between Silicon Valley and Poland. I would say the biggest problem with the current government are taxes. Desperate to fund the socialist policy of "500+", the government changes the "interpretation" of the current tax code. Suddenly programmers are taxed at a higher rate: e.g. https://www.wykop.pl/link/4196755/informatycy-nie-moga-byc-p... . Besides that, the government tries to be friendly to tech startups.

Another problem is GDPR. It sounds like the life of European startups is going to get much harder.

One potential upside is EU funding. Having used both VC and EU funding I am not sure if it's really worth it, even if it's equity free.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by thraway180306 on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @06:11PM (#16532936)
Polish tax code and adjudication has been a mess for a very long time. The actual rates have not changed, interpretations do change constantly and you can't get a binding one. There is no such thing. You can officially request some advice from the ministry explaining what the dues are in your case, but what this says is not binding for the revenue service if they choose not to refrain from harassing you with their creative interpretations. Combined with lack of precedence law every issue becomes a potential court gamble (and it is a gamble) if not resolved amicably. That this is new is just hot air about the current government (despicable for other good reasons).
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by expertentipp on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:13AM (#16528947)
> Polish government's shift toward authoritarianism makes that less likely.

In case of Krakow I would rather worry about the awful air pollution. What you hear about Polish politics is a political war resulting with plenty of nonsense media content produced.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by badpun on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:32AM (#16528699)
I'd say they're much less radical than Trump. Does Trump make America a bad place for tech? I don't think he has impacted the SV ecosystem much for example.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by Brakenshire on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:37AM (#16528730)
America has enormous pre-existing advantages, the effect of electing a hostile government is not equivalent to the same in Poland.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by m_ke on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:34AM (#16528713)
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by adventured on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:19AM (#16528981)
The figures in the article, representing the drop, are 27% above 2012 levels. For science & engineering the student numbers are 46% higher than 2012. So much for that premise.

The decline shown is between 2016 and 2017. Trump wasn't President. Any decisions to attend in the US would have been considered well before it was even clear he would have a serious chance of winning.

There are two likely reasons for that dip. First, the cost of university education in the US is quite high. Second and in tandem with the first issue, countries like China that formerly would have sent a lot of students to the US, increasingly have the education systems and infrastructure - along with the post education opportunities - in place to retain their own talent pools.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by dragonwriter on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:34AM (#16529066)
> The decline shown is between 2016 and 2017. Trump wasn't President.

Trump was, in fact, President well before the 16 April — 15 November period covered for the 2017 data.

> Any decisions to attend in the US would have been considered well before it was even clear he would have a serious chance of winning.

But would have had ample time to be reconsidered after he won, and even after the initial implementation of the travel ban.

> There are two likely reasons for that dip. First, the cost of university education in the US is quite high

That was true I've the 2012–2016 period of increase, too, it didn't change between 2016 and 2017.

> Second and in tandem with the first issue, countries like China that formerly would have sent a lot of students to the US, increasingly have the education systems and infrastructure - along with the post education opportunities - in place to retain their own talent pools.

That also didn't dramatically change between 2016 and 2017.

What did dramatically change between 2016 and 2017 was the visible attitude of the U.S. public and government to foreigners.

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by LaGrange on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @11:11AM (#16529702)
> Does Trump make America a bad place for tech?

Yes?

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by nukeop on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:36AM (#16528726)
Krakow thrives under the so-called "authoritarian" (actually very mundane and liberal) government. The conditions for the growth of the tech sector are there, and most people working in it agree that they are better off than they were a couple of years ago and it's still getting progressively better.
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by pjf on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @08:55AM (#16528841)
Re: Polish government, I wouldn't trust the news hype on "authoritarianism" at all - IMHO, these "news" are largely just some powerful people doing dirty politics
Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by Freak_NL on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @09:08AM (#16528917)
It is a sentiment shared by the EU though. The Polish government's approach to dismantling the trias politica is worrying, to say the least:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/08/polish-mps-pas...

Re:New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe by m_fayer on Tuesday March 06, 2018 @10:38AM (#16529447)
As someone descended partially from Jews from that area, calling the attempted rewriting of some very personal and painful history "hype" strikes me as malicious and insulting.